Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[ironwing]

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

In English we call this regression. But I feel I can be more productive in my response than that: While true the nature of the game quickly leads away from gimp kills, there is potential elsewhere for advancement over its melee predecessor. DI, for instance, has become much more prominent, paving the way for a a new breed of strategy for both offense and defense. This, for instance, creates the opportunity for a more integrated mindgame-oriented style of play. Brawl is by no means on borrowed time, it just needs some lovin' to be understood.

 

[Zankoku]

Light shielding is gone. That favored defense pretty **** well and it's gone.

lol, don't even start on the shield. Sure, you can't lightshield any more, but the powershield no longer reflects projectiles, weakening offensive shield strategies a bit, and unshielding is far, far faster than in Melee, encouraging shielding an attack and then being safe to respond immediately afterward with almost anything.

 

[Repryx]

Ankiku everything about your post wins, from the content to the avatar and sig, to the matching border and name....good stuff

I agree BTW.

-Ciao

 

[thumbswayup]

There really isn't an arguement here. Brawl is and always will have less competitive value than melee. That is a fact. Everything about the game just screams "DON'T PLAY ME SERIOUSLY!".

 

[ironwing]

Correct, there is no argument here, you have failed to support your claim. This, however, is situationally irrelovent since I agree with you about the diminished competitive feel of Brawl. Regardless the point I was addressing was Brawl's longevity, as I do not feel it is limited.

 

[Repryx]

^^Correct there is no argument as you did not go in to detail on how DI offeres new strategies.

The only thing I have seen said DI do, is prolong matches with less skill on the part of the one who DI(s). If any thing it allows the person who DIed to Airdodge their way to the ledge or position themselves at the ledge and because of this many offensive strategies fail sir...please bring a better argument than that.

-Ciao

 

[RDK]

lol, don't even start on the shield. Sure, you can't lightshield any more, but the powershield no longer reflects projectiles, weakening offensive shield strategies a bit, and unshielding is far, far faster than in Melee, encouraging shielding an attack and then being safe to respond immediately afterward with almost anything.

Which is why everyone is always so hesitant to attack and likes to camp with Pit or play turtle with Ike. Correct spacing and positioning are more important than ever, but the character that camps and spams projectiles still has an advantage and leaves the other characted with less options.

 

[Repryx]

^^RDK Ur sig makes you look Biased...

-Ciao

 

[ironwing]

Perhaps I was misleading by not clarifying the DI justification. This is merely suggestion, however, I feel my meaning of DI in this instance requires further explanation. I am not simply referring to the ability to save one's self from a potential KO and undo the labors of the skilled opponent. I am in fact, referring to the ability to DI at any point in the match. The scope of DI usage has been broadened in Brawl through increased aerial mobility. It cannot, for certain, be said that this does not present new opportunities for either offensive or defensive strategy. That said, it was purely suggestion, and I am not implicating that Brawl's saving grace is the ability to flutter around in the air like some misshapen drunken butterfly, but back to the point: Brawl is not going anywhere. Brawl is no terminally ill inbred cousin of its predecessors. If so why continue playing...out of sympathy? Are we to feel pity for its ineptitude as the family outcast and play with false smiles until we can pull the plug and be done with it? While I am sure the game is being played with considerable apprehension (as is appropriate), I believe the game deserves a chance and that it will produce. It may not contain comparable challenges which Melee presented that, when mastered, differentiated the good player from the advanced player, however, it still has potential, and should not be written off so despairingly.

 

[Zankoku]

DI is pretty simple in Brawl. DI away if you want to get out of rapid hits, toward if you want to retaliate against a laggy attack, toward and up-ish if you want to live longer against a side KO move, away and down if you want to live longer against an upward KO move.

 

[Repryx]

Im not saying brawl isnt a good game...Im saying that it cant be taken competitivly with it being a campfest...Even my victories feel dumb because the opponent tripped or something. I feel like a smash hypocrite because I was always aggressive and at this point...Ive never done so many sheild-grabs in my life. Against a person who is playing for fun...its fun to be aggressive and/ or camp however when competing it draws boredom...its like alot of boxing matches these days...most times the guys dance around the ring bucking at and flinching from one another...sure lets give it a chance but you know that the chance is going to be short lived when people are now TRYING to find some glitch or adv tech to make the game better...In Melee the base, raw game supported both playstyles...sure fox and sheik were cheap but nonetheless the game blossomed into a perfect find...now people who are adults and analytical are finding brawl to be unfair as its base raw meta-game supports camping.

-Ciao

-Ciao

 

[Rhubarbo]

My main gripe is that combos are gone, combos are exciting. When they are gone, I have less fun.

 

[showmeyagoose]

gimpy your a *******

 

[Fletch]

gimpy youre a *******, and an *******, youre lucky little kids who play smash kiss your ***. thats the only thing that keeps you cocky.
what you say isnt true, dont get mad because you arent good in brawl..........seriously, youre saying everyone needs to be defensive instead of gimping & offensive? you just dont know how to gimp right

Insulting a mod is a good way to start out at this website, and for the record, I can guarantee Gimpy is a million times better at Brawl than you are judging by your post.

 

[Tyr_03]

Hmm I don't know if Brawl will move backward really but I doubt it will move very far forward. There just isn't enough to expand upon because of the physics. I still have a lot of fun playing competitively just like I have a lot of fun playing Melee competitively. The difference is that I'll never run out of things to work on in Melee whereas in Brawl once you've got the basics down you're pretty much set.

 

[pikachun00b7]

Don't you think it is a bit too early to make such a prediction?
One that will probably be wrong might I add.
I have never seen any competitive game that, when its metagame evolves, retrogresses.

 

[thumbswayup]

Brawl will be the first.

 

[Statuskuo]

The people who are complaining, I sympathize with. I know all of them are complaining because they truly want to like Brawl, and they can't, for various reasons. They complain because they don't WANT to go back to melee, I don't think anybody wants to. If they really didn't care, they wouldn't say anything, just quietly go back to Melee.

People need to stop saying that these people wanted Melee 2.0, some of them did, for sure, but the part thats pissing them off is not the fact that wavedashing and L-canceling are gone. Whats annoying them is that the doors that those two techniques opened have now been closed. Its not about how they no longer have "glitches to exploit."

The dramatic drop in speed is whats irking them. They waited for a very long time to play this game, through a lot of delay, and they're disappointed. Let them have their rants and whines. Its not as if they're complaining for the hell of it, a lot of them are sincerely crushed.

Its a bit of a late reply, but I just had to. You nailed it. This is exactly how I feel. I tried so hard to like it as much as melee, gave it so many chances.... We waited so long for this game..

*cries*

 

[IrArby]

The only thing that supports Brawl's professionally competitive gameplay is the professional competitive gamers. Melee supports both types: casual and professional.
Brawl is decidely and purposively casaul.

 

[navillus]

I couldn't agree more with you Gill. I seriously can barely control my actions playing melee after a good dose of brawl. I'll admit that while i was hoping for melee 2.0 (lets be honest here, most of us that devoted our lives to this game were) after playing brawl i am still trying to find the spark and love for this game that i once, and still do have, for melee. Many of us out there are sad that our pure game of melee is gone, taken from us by Sakurai.

all in all brawl is a much different game and while i agree with gimpy about the regression of the game only time will tell

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

Amazing Gimpy.

I was going to start a topic like this until I read this thread.

Me and my friend were playing Brawl today, one on one hardcore, and we never felt so bored in our lives. We were both like "this game is boring". And it's mostly due to reasons gimpy mentions.

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

until brawl becomes more technical and competitive then melee, i think anyone defending it right now as people against the whole getting more skilled and playing competitively mindset that fueled the melee tournaments for the past 7+ years it was isolated in. a 7+ year golden age that died to the introduction of brawl

 

[Jartravious]

I never played melee so i will not make comments on it because of no experience

any way i think that brawl is incredibly fun to play competitively and casually from what i hear its defiantly not as competitive as melee but thats my 2 cents

 

[Heroic]

I would have agreed with Gimpy if I had read this thread one week ago, but it seems in that one week that I just understood what brawl was about, like an illumination.

I can't accurately describe it, but... Well, I was totally pissed about the game, about samus that wasn't able to do **** against marth and other things like that, until I discovered that her grapple was awesome when done in the air.

It may seems a bit ridiculous, but from that moment on, my Samus improved drastically on many levels, and I was able to beat marths pretty easily. It is just that each hit has properties in terms of start-up and lag that determines wich is good to do in each situation. Close quarter battles and exchanges seem more epic and fun then they were in melee.

I know I don't really have anything to back what I am saying, but just try this: play some zero suit samus versus wolf match-ups until both players become really used to the characters, and try new things. You will understand what I am talking about. You can also try using samus against captain falcon or marth.

Ho, yeah, and you can gimp kill in this game as much as in melee. Sure, characters got better recovery, but that also means that you can go farther off-stage to try and kill them. It just takes practice to discover all the possibilities your character has to offer in each match-up.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Brawl is so much fun but that's all about Brawl. There is no suspense in Brawl at all when you die it's anti-climatic it doesn't feel like "OMG YES!!!!" Heck when you win and beat them down the other guy it doesn't seem like you can brag at all. The learning curve? What learning curve is there? There is very little learning curve for specific characters like Sonic and few others.

Also I keep hearing "Melee 2.0", no Melee 2.0 shouldn't be made instead what they should is Brawl + Melee = something different. You can have the ideas of Brawl, just take out the tripping and leave everything else in. We don't need Melee 2.0.

But we certainly don't need Smash 0.5 welcome back to 1995.

 

[Veil2222]

Brawl focuses on different things than melee, if you focus on what was important in melee, you're going to hit a wall with brawl and not get any better. I've had plenty of "OMG YES!!" moments, and it's pretty obvious if you don't know how to play your character well against specific matchups. Stop trying to make combos your staple, work on mindgaming for 1-2 hit set up-s, chase off the level, and learn new approaches with airdodges, auto-rars, and character specific mechanics, you'll have a lot more fun that way.

 

[Corigames]

Because all that stuff you just said totally wasn't in melee...

 

[AG4U2NV]

First I will like to say this is a thread that I wanted to start but that's okay good going Gimpyfish
(by the way I would like to play your Bowser*Melee*---heard you are one of the best Boswers out there)

The tournament we had made us use the Wii Mote(bad mistake)nobody wanted to play the tourney execpt for noobs,but because it was OMG BRAWL we played anyway.I'm a Fox,Falco,and Samus player in Melee,so I chose Fox for the tournament...was I in for a big surprise.I quickly addjusted to the play and in 30 secomds figured out there was no L-Cancels,wavedash,No hit stun,(which means no "real combos")and that every character seems to float.But giving the benefit of the doubt I thought "new game so new mechanics" and let it slide.

After just days of trying to keep Brawl in high regards as a serious fighting game more than a ****ing stupid multi-playing party game I'm still disappointed.There are way too many things I can list to degrade Brawl and boast about Melee(from the stage auto-recovery to the no fast fall after doing a move*you can fast fall just not after doing be moves--reason for no SHL) but it would do no good,we already know all of this.

What the "people" wanted waas Melee(the game itself))with just the addition of the new characters.
That is all we really saw on the boards."Oh I want [sample character] in Brawl" or "They should put [so-in-so] in Brawl".Hah,the only thing that was a good but not wow was the Smash Ball personally it add flare to the game because I play with it off or on low and when it comes out it's fun to get and don't use it(keeps people at bay)or when people are shouting "B,B,B,push B,use the Final Smash".

To end I will say this: Super Smash Bros 64 was a start,I mean what other game has characters from other games kicking each other *****(execpt Soul Calibur btw Darth Vader on PS3 and Yoda on XBOX 360 for Soul Calidur 4 are badass)
Super Smash Bros Melee was a major upgrade from looks to gameplay added more people 26 in total nearly doubling from the first installment.
Super Smash Bros Brawl was a pause in the "evolution" being that it looks ****ing fantastic but plays like the first installment.

The only thing to say is play Brawl if you want to keep up with the new game becaues untill another is made Melee will be there and the only complaints there "should" be are "This is old" or This ain't/isn't Brawl" or "Look at those graphics" beside the first two the last one can be simple argued with
"It was made for the Wii you ******* it better have better grapchis"

Check out my videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIrhlc1a1g8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jQgre0_pZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiSEnO-q4Ys

Until Next Time.

 

[Cookiez]

The titles of those videos were particually arrogant, seeing as the peach was FAR FROM PERFECT, and that Captain Falcon she was playing, unless was deliberately playing badly (ie. wasting his invincibility and dash attacking your shield TWICE IN A ROW) was absoulute Garbage. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when facing an Opponent like that, it's relatively difficult to look anything less than good.

The Fox video, although not claiming to be "insane" still showed the Fox L-Canceling incorrectly and missing out on some valuable combos. Additionally I noted the extreme lack of DI by both players.

Similar sentiments for the last video, except DI had an even greater influence, though the Samus was quite some way better than the Peach and Fox, and I did like certain parts of the videos such as the SWD -> Charge Shot (or something similar, can't precicely remember).

Though I do understand you were using those vid's to illustrate that Melee was by far a faster paced and more exciting game than Brawl, I don't believe you should be tagging them as "Perfect Peach", or "The Last Great ___" and making them seem much more than they really are.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Brawl focuses on different things than melee, if you focus on what was important in melee, you're going to hit a wall with brawl and not get any better. I've had plenty of "OMG YES!!" moments, and it's pretty obvious if you don't know how to play your character well against specific matchups. Stop trying to make combos your staple, work on mindgaming for 1-2 hit set up-s, chase off the level, and learn new approaches with airdodges, auto-rars, and character specific mechanics, you'll have a lot more fun that way.

No, focusing on what you said won't provide for fun, it will provide for success. Good players will still win in Brawl over the noobs (un-like Sakurai intended), it's just more boring. If a foe makes the wrong move and lands into one your combos, you get this sense of satisfaction. I could live without l-cancelling personally, but why remove it and keep teching (oh whoops, Ukemi) in?

Also, Brawl is less intense, it's too slow and too floaty. High Gravity remedies some of this, but it's still to slow. Melee had intense moments that required split second decisions. What I've heard constantly on these boards is that Brawl requires more strategy because it's slower. That's far from the truth! Melee required more strategy, you just had to act quicker...

Also, saying that Brawl has more mindgames is nothing but a lie. Melee has more mindgames, it's just that Brawl FOCUSES on mindgames.

Brawl is competitve garbage. It's all pretty boring. My friend and I used to be able to play Melee for 2 hours straight and still crave more. We might spend 30 minutes in Brawl before we want to go play somehting else.

Gill, you hit the nail on the head on this one.

 

[AG4U2NV]

The titles of those videos were particually arrogant, seeing as the peach was FAR FROM PERFECT, and that Captain Falcon she was playing, unless was deliberately playing badly (ie. wasting his invincibility and dash attacking your shield TWICE IN A ROW) was absoulute Garbage. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when facing an Opponent like that, it's relatively difficult to look anything less than good.

The Fox video, although not claiming to be "insane" still showed the Fox L-Canceling incorrectly and missing out on some valuable combos. Additionally I noted the extreme lack of DI by both players.

Similar sentiments for the last video, except DI had an even greater influence, though the Samus was quite some way better than the Peach and Fox, and I did like certain parts of the videos such as the SWD -> Charge Shot (or something similar, can't precicely remember).

Though I do understand you were using those vid's to illustrate that Melee was by far a faster paced and more exciting game than Brawl, I don't believe you should be tagging them as "Perfect Peach", or "The Last Great ___" and making them seem much more than they really are.

The Perfect Peach Award was given to the video as to illustrate that the Peach did not get hit at all,and the other indidcating the transistion to Brawl from Melee, "The Last" the great part was just added for flare for the title.

 

[§witch]

If you guys are going to try and play brawl like it's melee, your not going to have fun with it. If you play it like a new game, adopt new strategies you'll realize it's a fun game and go with it.

 

[Cookiez]

The Perfect Peach Award was given to the video as to illustrate that the Peach did not get hit at all,and the other indidcating the transistion to Brawl from Melee, "The Last" the great part was just added for flare for the title.

Nonetheless, the description of the aforementioned Peach was "insane", which it was not, thus my points still hold. However, since I have gone wildely offtopic and still do agree to some extent with what you say (I vastly prefer melee) so I'll just finish with "Nice Samus". :D

Also, @ Letterbomb, do you honestly think we still try to play Brawl like Melee? The whole reason Pros are "Pros" are because they have the ability to adapt and capitalise on the smallest advantage they have been given, thus do well. Different strategies have been found, and are certainly used and abused.

For example, take camping. Many extremely good players did not camp to nearly the same extent that they do now, is this not an example of adapation? This just illustrates how in fact most players do not play Brawl like Melee, yet are still finding the game less enjoyable.

 

[Rhubarbo]

If you guys are going to try and play brawl like it's melee, your not going to have fun with it. If you play it like a new game, adopt new strategies you'll realize it's a fun game and go with it.

The point is, if you do what you just said, you'll end up camping. Brawl is boring if you master it's meta game.

 

[Veil2222]

I remember why I don't post in general again, most of the "debate" threads are just a bunch of people steamrolling over each others points with their opinion and what they want to talk about, reading snips of posts they don't like and replying out of contex. So I'm ducking out again, have fun not getting anywhere.

 

[Corigames]

So I'm ducking out again, have fun not getting anywhere.

Though I'm sure I wasn't the target of such a post, I'd like to point out that you are implying that discussion here is going no where yet you deny participation and then leave. Acts such as that also don't contribute to accomplishment.

 

[Equi]

The issue I have with Brawl is that it's constantly a game of "who approaches first" in a sense that bot players will continue to do aerials and act like they're "spacing" like pros when in reality the guy that makes the first inaccurate move forward basically ruins his position.

So it becomes a game of spamming projectiles, move forward a little bit wait, etc. Which I don't have an issue with. I still love Brawl. But I'm not going to deny, the amount of options you have is so drastically decreased from Melee that at times I try so hard to be unpredictable, but you only have such limited ways of being unpredictable (walking away, SH into nothing, etc.) that the game does become stale competitely. However, I would not dismiss Brawl's competitive value as of yet. If players like Azen can still consistently win tournaments, then there must be some secret to the game still worth learning.

 

[sagemoon]

Pit can now eat through projectiles while approaching. Does that make him broken? (no i'm not talking about his side b lol, talking about his up b cancel)

 

[Chexr]

Camping will be weeded out. Someone who throws out more attacks WILL do more damage than someone who throws out less. It's all a matter of playing it safe. Keep the pressure up and play smart and camping will become a thing of the past.

That being said Melee and Brawl play vastly different from each other. Two good players are going be going back and forth toe to toe in brawl, where in melee it was one person dominating until either a death or a mistake. Mainly playing against a laser spamming Falco in melee I personally welcome the being able to move thing.

Both are great games and when more people get better at being aggressive and smart at the same time I'm sure it will start to grow on them. You get out what you put in just like melee.

 

[Yuna]

If you guys are going to try and play brawl like it's melee, your not going to have fun with it. If you play it like a new game, adopt new strategies you'll realize it's a fun game and go with it.

We're not trying to play it as if it were Melee. We're trying to play it as if it were a Competitive fighting game... and it sucks as that.

We have adopted. We just don't like the little orphan we picked up.