Brawl+ Stage legality discussion

[Alphatron]

It's been said that we needed this topic a while back, so I decided, why not?

Discuss viable stages and what stages can recieve minor edits in order to be made viable. To keep things organized, let's discuss one stage at a time.

Since I'm posting from the Wii, I can't copy/paste. So can someone post the current stage list for brawl+ in the 2nd post please? Thanks beforehand.

 

[stingers]

Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Yoshi's Island

Counterpick:
Warioware
Halberd
Wifi Waiting Room
Delfino
Frigate
Norfair
Lylat
Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 1
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

IMO

 

[Lightosia]

What about Wario Ware being random?
And about Luigi's Mansion and Mushroomy Kingdom being CP? I heard that these stages are slower now. (Because of the BBrawl's idea)

 

[-dUb-]

What about Wario Ware being random?

WarioWare is frozen/reversed, hence no randomness and a good starter/counter

 

[stingers]

Warioware shouldn't be random because the platform setup promotes camping and isn't really fair for characters that get absolutely ***** by platforms (I know ROB does).

Stages like Battlefield are fine because there are many ways around the platforms, but it's not so easy on Warioware.

Mansion still has the same exact problems it did in vBrawl, except now it respawns slower...which doesn't actually fix anything. It also looks really choppy while following...that's not reason enough to take it off the CP list but it just looks bad.

Mushroomy Kingdom also is about just as viable as Big Blue.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

vBrawl current list

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl] (37-0-0)
Battlefield (47-0-1)
Smashville (24-0-1)
Final Destination (26-2-1)


Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise (16-9-0)
Halberd (18-16-0)
Pokémon Stadium 1 (16-14-2)
Castle Siege (5-9-0)


Counter

Delfino Plaza (6-20-0)
Brinstar (1-20-0)
Frigate Orpheon (1-29-0)
Rainbow Cruise (0-30-1)
Jungle Japes (0-14-1)
Pirate Ship (0-15-3)
PictoChat (0-25-9)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (0-24-11)


Counter/Banned

Norfair (0-16-10)
Luigi's Mansion (0-11-8)
Distant Planet (0-15-11)
Green Greens (0-6-9)
Yoshi's Island [Melee] (0-10-19)
Port Town Aero Dive (0-12-23)


Banned

Hanenbow (0-5-16)
Mario Circuit (0-5-19)
Onett (0-3-14)
Corneria (0-3-15)
Big Blue (0-3-17)
75m (2-2-24)
Green Hill Zone (0-3-19)
New Pork City (2-1-20)
Rumble Falls (0-3-21)
Shadow Moses Island (1-1-20)
Summit (0-2-20)
Mario Bros. (2-0-22)
Flat Zone 2 (1-1-22)
Bridge of Eldin (0-2-25)
WarioWare Inc. (0-2-33)
Spear Pillar (1-0-31)
Skyworld (0-0-16)
Temple (0-0-16)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (0-0-19)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (0-0-21)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my personal opinion
Brawl+
SINGLES STAGES
current (8-13) nightly

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
WarioWare Inc.

Counter
Rumble Falls Online pratice stage
Castle Siege
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
PictoChat
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

-----

Banned Untill Coded/changed
***these are some of the stages i have heard talk of editing, or i think might be able to be legal if changed (ex: freezing ect.) ***
Pirate Ship - Change water/freeze
Green Hill Zone - non attackable parts/freeze
Skyworld - top platforms destroyed
Port Town Aero Dive - freeze/car damage reduction
Distant Planet - rain/ freeze
Spear Pillar - Misc. changes..
Big Blue - slow down

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 - Camera/Boundry changes
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 - Misc. ideas
Mario Circuit - Camera/Boundry changes
Bridge of Eldin - Camera/Boundry changes
Onett - Camera/Boundry changes, car damage/KB reduction

BANNED
75m
Hanenbow
New Pork City
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Temple

 

[stingers]

If Pirate Ship removes the water and freezes...it would be neutral...like really @.@ It needs to be done D:

Skyworld would never be legal if the pieces are destructible

Green Hill Zone will never be legal if you can tech off the hills like you can a wall (though I've played on that stage like once, so I don't know if you can, if you can't then it'd maybe work since all unDIable CGs are gone...afaik)

Spear Pillar will never work lol....people have tried and it just doesn't work. if you try to raise the death zone above the bottom part then people with tethers can die while recovering. really. maybe if there was a way to just put an invisible wall in front of the cave? that'd work.

Distant Planet and Port Town Aero Dive can work

Norfair would be even better with a freeze def, I think it's fine now but a freeze would be better so I'd support it

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 will never work

1-1 probably has some parts that can work? I need to play it more

Big Blue will never work unless you can just stay on the top ship frozen the whole time, which IIRC can't be done for some reason. but if you could it'd probably work

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so ignoring the banned/banned till list
does everything seem in line?
nothing in the cp/starter area that should be changed?

 

[stingers]

Norfair should be legal anyway...

and

Jungle Japes
PictoChat
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion

Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

wtf @ those? lol

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Norfair should be legal anyway...

and

Jungle Japes
PictoChat
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion

Corneria
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

wtf @ those? lol

yeah, i was one of the people that fought for norfair's legality
i was going to put it in cp and just have a note that it can be changed if wanted

jungle japes, ive always been iffy on that one...i'd rather more ppl choose than just my opinion alone

pictochat, i dont see how it should be banned. its got a few hazzards but not anything game changing for the most part
why not freeze it if its bad?

green greens. ive seen alot of matches played here and i dont

luigi's mansion can be deadlands if ppl want it to be legal(for sure)


corneria = meh its debateable but leaning on the banned side
yoshi's island, im not sure really about that one

 

[Shadic]

For Skyworld, I think we should do the following..

It would make it either a starter, or a counter-pick. Likely a starter.

Of course, make it so you can't hit the main platform.

 

[stingers]

leave the bottom moving platform and make it a CP...gives it something original instead of being a quasi BF-clone

 

[Slashy]

Mario Circuit isn't a bad counterpick.

 

[Dark Sonic]

For Skyworld, I think we should do the following..

It would make it either a starter, or a counter-pick. Likely a starter.

Of course, make it so you can't hit the main platform.

You know, you could also just make the bottom platform always solid and leave the rest alone, and it would still be a great counterpick. Or if you're really worried about that top platform, you could make that always broken or just slow down the stage so that the platforms stay broken for longer periods of time.

No need to strip the stage of it's original charm. It can still easily function as a counterpick while leaving the "breakable platform" gimmick intact.

 

[stingers]

or just slow down the stage so that the platforms stay broken for longer periods of time.

Why do people act like this is an answer

It didn't work for Mansion or Big Blue, it won't work here

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why do people act like this is an answer

It didn't work for Mansion or Big Blue, it won't work here

It doesn't work for mansion because the stage is a pain to break apart and leaves you in a disadvantageous position while doing so.

It doesn't work for Big Blue because it's just a terrible stage layout in the first place, and slowing down the stage is not enough to save it.

Skyworld has a very nice platform setup, the only problems are the "cave of life" effect that the ceiling gives, and the fact that the base platform can break, leaving it with no ledges.

Making the base platform solid solves the no ledges problem, and slowing down the stage can technically solve the cave of live issue (you just break the platforms that you don't like and they take a really long time to come back).

Heck, you could also freeze the stage so that the platforms don't EVER reappear if you destroy them (and give them a little more health so that they can survive a typical match if nobody is specifically trying to destroy them). Except for that pesky top platform and the unstable base, the platform layout is really just fine for a counterpick.

 

[stingers]

Why is that better than permanently destroying all platforms except the very bottom one (which would be made unhittable)?

 

[Lucina Clash]

THANK YOU FOR, AT LAST, MAKING THIS THREAD

My opinion on stage legality:

What Shadic stated IS EXACTLY WHAT I wanted for Skyworld to be. Skyworld is an interesting stage, and getting rid of those platforms is an easy way to make it legal. Same for making the last part uncrushable and the sliding platform go away.

Anyways, WarioWare I can see being a good CP/neutral, and sooooo many stages would be more legal if we could remove parts. Take 75 m for instance. If we could get rid of DK bouncing those annoying springs, platform and anything, and increase the death zone, easy CP. The Summit and Hyrule: Temple are permanently doomed to being banned stages since they are annoying.

Would freezing Onett make it more legal??

Shadow Moses Island - if we could get rid of those walls and make pits instead... if only we could do that.... easy CP.

Bridge of Eldin - This could be a decent doubles stage if frozen with no breakable bridge, keeping the King.

Flat Zone 2 - I say we KEEP IT on the first part of the stage. Maybe enhancing the death boundaries can help this??? By the way, by "first part" of the stage I mean the "manhole" part, not the trampolines. And I am doubting I made any significant suggestions. I don't know.

Yoshi's Island (Melee ) - Same thing as with Shadow Moses Island: removal of certain areas of this stage, in this case the annoying blocks! Also we can make this stage Melee-sized as well....

Hopefully we can get something figured.

EDIT: Seems I missed like ten posts because I started ten minutes back.... Darn. Ignore some of these because, honestly, I don't want to really go back and edit them again

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

the current problem with skyworld is that:
its partially a cave of life
passthrough platform at the bottom causes many problems
ledges can be destroyed, killing tethers with them

theses can all be changed if needed (in due time)

any more issues with skyworld?
and.. im guessing it should stay banned for now

 

[stingers]

skyworld can be a perfectly legal stage....

       ____     <-Perma Destroyed    
 ___         ___  <-Both Perma Destroyed

  ________  <-Perma Unhittable
/

    ___   <-Perma Unhittable

hope you could follow that lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why do the side platforms need to be Perma Destroyed?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

thats what the current idea for a fix is
the platform on the bottom doesnt seem that bad though

 

[stingers]

if the side platforms aren't perma destroyed you can get stupid low % gimps by bouncing people off them. it's like a ceiling in the middle of the stage.

 

[Lucina Clash]

Stingers135 gets it. Perma-destroyed platforms seem to be the only thing we can really do there....



By the way, has anyone ever tried freezing Green Greens? It makes for a great starter because nothing happens and when the match begins, everyone knows where the bombs are put, if any are even in there. It seems better than having the stage slowed down, since the stage has healing items in it on occasion. (Sorry, a little off the subject, but related to this topic still)

 

[stingers]

green greens frozen? hmm...i mean if the blocks start out there too that'd just be kinda weird, if you could start out with no blocks it'd be a great stage. the blast zones are still small but it'd definitely be CP worthy

 

[Alphatron]

I like that idea for Skyworld actually. The clouds will still be there so its not like it'll be some Final Destination ripoff. Also keeps people from camping on solid platforms if possible.

If possible, I'd like to test the idea for mansion that one brought up a while back. Reduce the hp that the mansion has and reduce the hp that the top platforms on Skyworld have. That way, if you want to keep them, they'll be easier to break.

...For Spear Pillar, I heard something about the platforms being altered. But unless the top part is done away with I don't see this stage being salvaged at all.

 

[stingers]

There's no reason to keep the pillars on Mansion and the bricks on Skyworld though. Deadlands was an awesome stage and it was removed because they thought it'd be CP worthy if they slowed it down (for some reason I still don't quite understand >.>), but Skyworld is unlike any other stage in Brawl with the platform on the bottom (and that little lip on the left side of the main platform is something different too, but that's not a big deal...)

The top part of Spear Pillar is what NEEDS to be kept. The bottom part needs to be gotten rid of, but there's no way to do that because raising the blast zones just makes the stage unplayable. If you could somehow put an invisible wall that doesn't let you get to the cave, and froze the stage, it'd also be a nice counterpick.

 

[ph00tbag]

if the side platforms aren't perma destroyed you can get stupid low % gimps by bouncing people off them. it's like a ceiling in the middle of the stage.

I'm getting a dissonance here.

The cave of life is a problem if your opponent is too good at teching. That I get, but now the side platforms are a problem if your opponent is bad at teching? Well, who do we give the benefit to? Personally, I think if you're getting gimped that way on Skyworld, either bust up the side platforms or learn to tech.

I like it like so:

       ____     <-Perma Destroyed    
 ___         ___  <-Breakable (slowed down?)

  ________  <-Perma Unhittable
/

    ___   <-Perma Unhittable

 

[stingers]

Right, but why would you leave the platforms how they are over just destroying them from the start? How is competition improved from that?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

when can it be possible to edit stages like this anyway?
the next "PSA" lol

also, changing stage sizes it out of hte question now i think
since it messes with spawn points

 

[Rudra]

So for Spear Pillar, its impossible for its layout to be as if Dialga/Palkia had blasted the hole through the middle? ._.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

So for Spear Pillar, its impossible for its layout to be as if Dialga/Palkia had blasted the hole through the middle? ._.

that actually seems like a good fix
im unaware to if we can or not now though

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that WW should be a neutral. Some characters are bad on stages with platforms, true, but the same can be said about FD, some characters suffer more/benefit more on flat stages.

 

[stingers]

It's not really a good fix because...I mean...you can still live stupid long by just DIing towards the un-broken parts. It's like this custom stage I played on called "My ****". You can imagine the shape. We would force Sudden Death and see who lived the longest. It wasn't that hard to just DI over to the sides and live forever

 

[leafgreen386]

If a tournament uses the stage strike system for choosing the first stage in a set, then there's no reason for WW to not be on starter. If a player doesn't want to go there, he simply just strikes it.

As for skyworld... I agree with making the bottom unhittable, the top autobroken, and the side platforms breakable with increased respawn time. Would make a nice CP.

On the topic of spear pillar... it's probably salvageable, but we're not exactly sure how yet, and lack the tools to do it even if we wanted to.

So what does everyone think of bringing back deadlands?

 

[stingers]

I don't know how you can want the side platforms breakable on Skyworld but Deadlands for Mansion. It's the same concept...lol it even leads to the same end result (live stupidly high by teching the ceiling).

 

[WheelOfFish]

WW is neutral. I agree with Matt and Leaf. Ban it if it's bad for your character, but the majority of the cast can function at a decent level at it.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

If a tournament uses the stage strike system for choosing the first stage in a set, then there's no reason for WW to not be on starter. If a player doesn't want to go there, he simply just strikes it.

As for skyworld... I agree with making the bottom unhittable, the top autobroken, and the side platforms breakable with increased respawn time. Would make a nice CP.

On the topic of spear pillar... it's probably salvageable, but we're not exactly sure how yet, and lack the tools to do it even if we wanted to.

So what does everyone think of bringing back deadlands?

i think its best to keep them borken on skywrold

deadlans is a good stage i think it should be back
no one complained about it back then

im editing my origonal post on the 1st page
should we just go off of that list or somthing?
and i'll update it as dicsussion moves along

 

[Rudra]

I also agree on WW being neutral.
As for Spear Pillar, I can actually imagine that situation being a real nuisance. =/
(It almost makes me wish Dialga/Palkia could stay and target only that area)

 

[stingers]

Also, about Warioware: No stage is truly "Neutral". For example, even though Final D and Battlefield are both "Neutral" stages, DDD has the advantage on Wario on Final, but it's not as easy on Battlefield. "Neutral" stages are really decided by how the cast as a whole does on the stage, and major outliers should be ignored. For a stage like Final, DDD/Falco for the good balance out Ike/Ganon for the bad. It might not be perfectly even, but it's close enough to even that we can call it fair. All neutrals share similar qualities like similar death boundaries, similar size, no game-changing random events, and no broken stage-dependent strategies that HEAVILY tilt the advantage in a character's favor over a considerable amount of the cast.

A stage like Warioware breaks a few of those rules: One, a character with a good juggle game is UNSTOPPABLE on Warioware if played right. There is no safe way back down to the ground (unless you're uh...MK, Kirby, or Jiggs, but that's why it's the requirement says "considerable amount of the cast" and not "all of it"). On a stage like Final D, you can just aim for the edge in the worst case scenario and you're safe. On Warioware, the blast zones are too close to the sides of the stage, so you can die at much lower %s then normal if you have to resort to going offstage in order to stop being juggled. Also, of course, the blast zones are smaller then the other neutral stages. Thankfully they're not as terrible as they were in vBrawl, but you'll notice that characters die, on average, about 25% earlier on Warioware then other Neutral stages.

The size of the stage is also very small, even smaller than Battlefield, which is already smaller than Yoshis/SV/FD. The small size supports camping underneath platforms more than Battlefield (the most similar neutral to WW), because you're often forced into approaching due to the fact you're always within arms reach of your opponent. Having such an advantageous position should NEVER be allowed in a neutral stage. The only thing it shares in common with the other Neutrals is that there are no game-changing random events (though, we did have to hack the stage to do that in the first place ).

You shouldn't use Stage Striking as a basis to include stages that aren't good enough for the other method (AKA Random Select), because you have to consider that a player is losing one of their VERY IMPORTANT bans over a stage that shouldn't be legal in the first place, which means picking a character that excels on Warioware could give you an advantage before the game even starts. For example, Marth has 3 really good Neutrals in this scenario: Warioware, Battlefield, and Yoshis. If he now has guaranteed access to one of these...that's clearly not a good thing.