Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[GPDP]

They're removing the buffer system. We're not.

Wat. Since when? Last I heard they were keeping it.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

Wat. Since when? Last I heard they were keeping it.

Thats what I heard also I have even been watching streams and keeping up to date with the forums and didn't notice anyone mention anything about them taking it out.

 

[BEES]

Wat. Since when? Last I heard they were keeping it.

I kept up with the main thread, and right now it seems the consensus is to bring it down to ~1 frame or thereabouts.

 

[GPDP]

I kept up with the main thread, and right now it seems the consensus is to bring it down to ~1 frame or thereabouts.

Uh, I think you're misinterpreting it. I heard people recommending we not play above 1 frame, but nothing about universally setting at that. AFAIK, the buffer system is there to stay.

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

MK has a lot of hitlag so you have more time to SDI his attacks, it was a nerf to him made on purpose, you'll see this a lot in a few other attacks as well. Lessening hitlag is bad because it removes the ability to SDI quick enough to get out of attacks (mainly multi-hit attacks or electric attacks). It was raised for good reason. It only creates a "placebo" effect of a faster game, when it really isn't THAT much faster.

I know it was on purpose, but I think it was raised TOO much. It's not really a placebo effect when it takes forever for multihit attacks to end, call me crazy but it slowes things down. Mk's hitlag was overdone, I mean why should we make it easy for someone to sdi out of an attack? Lowering it enough to speed things up and still let people who have skill to sdi out of attacks seems like a win-win to me.

 

[Deleted member]

It is possible to have Melee's speed and techs without the tech barriers. They're removing the buffer system. We're not. I'm fine with keeping ALC as it is in B+. Things that are arbitrarily hard have no strategic value. Wavedashing is a different case. It offers depth, so I think it should be included. We can find ways to make it easier. Possibly tying it to a simpler command, or perhaps a more generous starting window would be enough.

Lol.

Manual L cancels offer strategic value as auto l cancels offer none. In Melee, most moves are safe on shield if you l cancel and fastfall, but by angling your shield or light shielding, you can make your opponent miss their l cancel's timing and create an opening. Instead of moves being shield safe already, you have to predict your opponent's shielding techniques.

WD and l cancels are not hard either... adjusting the timing for them is just lazy instead of practicing to execute some of the simplest forms of technical skill...

 

[dansal]

Why would a person shield in melee, that makes no sense.

 

[BEES]

Lol.

Manual L cancels offer strategic value as auto l cancels offer none. In Melee, most moves are safe on shield if you l cancel and fastfall, but by angling your shield or light shielding, you can make your opponent miss their l cancel's timing and create an opening. Instead of moves being shield safe already, you have to predict your opponent's shielding techniques.

At a high level of play, your opponent will not miss their cancel. It is a technique that you can lord over a less technical player, but it's questionable if that registers as a strategy. L-canceling at the right time is the only correct option, and the window for the L-cancel does not change, only the amount of time it takes to get to it. There are other, more important directions that we could develop strategy.

There are cancels that are worth adding. Attack-specific conditional IASA frames could add far more layers to the game than a 6-frame button tap whenever you land on the stage.

WD and l cancels are not hard either... adjusting the timing for them is just lazy instead of practicing to execute some of the simplest forms of technical skill...

You can't have it both ways. If they're not hard for you, then why would you care if they were made easier for someone else? You're trying two different arguments and you're going to have to choose one and stick with it.

Most people agree they are hard to learn. I put in the time and enjoy Melee despite that, but I recognize that it doesn't have to be that way. There are other kinds of depth a game can have. Baseball and Chess are both hard, but in different ways. Adding strict frame windows to a fighting game, for moves that didn't require it, always struck me as forcing a chess player to hit a home run to move his pieces.

 

[dansal]

Not all skills are valuable.

edit: or worth watching.

 

[Krautrock]

At a high level of play, your opponent will not miss their cancel. It is a technique that you can lord over a less technical player, but it's questionable if that registers as a strategy. L-canceling at the right time is the only correct option, and the window for the L-cancel does not change, only the amount of time it takes to get to it. There are other, more important directions that we could develop strategy.

I like everything about this post. Seriously, L-canceling is totally worthless. There's no reason at all to include it other than to appease the notoriously finicky Melee player base. If it wasn't in Melee no one would argue for it. There's already enough to separate serious players from everyone else. I'm much happier with aerial lag reduction. But I digress - it's going to be included and this is the wrong thread in any case.

I'm really concerned B+ will completely die as soon as P:M is released. Which is a total shame, because it's a great game and I really think the balance on the current set is pretty amazing. If only the game was faster and more conducive to offense - à la Melee - it would be perfect. (I know this revision would be a ton of work, and I can understand why the developers get frustrated when people express this. Still... it would be worth it.) I don't need Melee techs or character replications, which is why I'm somewhat apprehensive about P:M.

I wish B+ is what Nintendo had originally released. The metagame has the potential to be so interesting... if only there were more players. It's a shame so many vBrawl players write off B+ just because they don't like/support "hacking." Gah.

 

[Sterowent]

bleh, l-canceling debate. i've always been fond of the idea that l-canceling was just a form of muscle generated by players, a sort of flex ingame that made it possible to do what you needed. it's nice to have a technical ability, fully required, that enables you to play on a totally different level. false sense of accomplishment is still accomplishment to many.

 

[Skieth]

Sheik's forward tilt will combo wolf up to 80% damage with no chance of him escaping. I fully support brawl+, do not play competitively, and hate wolf enough to keep me awake at night, however I feel obligated to post this.

I've tried against humans and against a lvl 3 bot (they're the ones that DI properly...right?) and no one can escape for a long time. It seems pretty broken to me. And before I get flamed for not knowing how to DI, you should check it out.

Thanks,
Skieth

 

[FrozenHobo]

Sheik's forward tilt will combo wolf up to 80% damage with no chance of him escaping. I fully support brawl+, do not play competitively, and hate wolf enough to keep me awake at night, however I feel obligated to post this.

I've tried against humans and against a lvl 3 bot (they're the ones that DI properly...right?) and no one can escape for a long time. It seems pretty broken to me. And before I get flamed for not knowing how to DI, you should check it out.

Thanks,
Skieth

CPUs don't DI. and the attack can be SDI'd to escape. the only part of the attack that can trap, iirc, is the tip (or at least thats whats its been for the past few updates).

i don't want to say that you don't know how to DI, but i can confirm that it is entirely escapable.

 

[Ulevo]

Would it be possible for someone to provide me with the code for the buffer mod on the CSS? As well as the code that allows for dashdancing/shielding during dashdancing? If someone could be of real help, I'd appreciate it if the code came with just the dashdance feature, and the shielding during dash dance excluded.

I understand that these are in the Brawl+ sets, but if this is the incorrect place to request this, could someone refer to where I should request these, or I could find them myself?

 

[GPDP]

Would it be possible for someone to provide me with the code for the buffer mod on the CSS? As well as the code that allows for dashdancing/shielding during dashdancing? If someone could be of real help, I'd appreciate it if the code came with just the dashdance feature, and the shielding during dash dance excluded.

I understand that these are in the Brawl+ sets, but if this is the incorrect place to request this, could someone refer to where I should request these, or I could find them myself?

A txt file with all the codes should be included when you download the Brawl+ pack. The codes you need should be there.

Actually, here you go:

Dash Dancing [Phantom Wings, 5 Lines]
C271F474 00000004
81830058 2C0C000E
4182000C C0230040
48000008 FC20D090
60000000 00000000

Buffer scale = Handicap scale [Y.S, Phantom Wings]
C285B784 00000006
807F002C 3C809018
806300F4 60840FDC
1C63005C 7C83202E
3860000A 2C040064
40800008 7C641BD6
60000000 00000000

And yes, that Dash Dance codes does not include Shield During Dash Dance, which is another code by itself.

 

[Ulevo]

A txt file with all the codes should be included when you download the Brawl+ pack. The codes you need should be there.

Actually, here you go:



And yes, that Dash Dance codes does not include Shield During Dash Dance, which is another code by itself.

Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. I'll take note of that for next time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why would a person shield in melee, that makes no sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ

Just sayin'

 

[BEES]

I'm really concerned B+ will completely die as soon as P:M is released. Which is a total shame, because it's a great game and I really think the balance on the current set is pretty amazing. If only the game was faster and more conducive to offense - à la Melee - it would be perfect. (I know this revision would be a ton of work, and I can understand why the developers get frustrated when people express this. Still... it would be worth it.) I don't need Melee techs or character replications, which is why I'm somewhat apprehensive about P:M.

What we like-minded B+ players need to do is stick together, recruit some coders, and put together a revision of B+. A "Brawl + +" if you will.

I'd prefer calling it Super Smash Bros 3, though. The idea is that this would be an evolution in gameplay from Melee and 64, not an attempt to make a spinoff game playable, and not an attempt to recreate a previous game with new characters and stages. This would be a new game in spirit, that is as different from 64, Melee, and Brawl as they are from each other.

 

[bleyva]

I'm really concerned B+ will completely die as soon as P:M is released.

What we like-minded B+ players need to do is stick together, recruit some coders, and put together a revision of B+. A "Brawl + +" if you will.

if a project of this nature were ever to take off, it would do infinitely more damage to B+ than P:M ever could. you'd just create another split in the community.

kinda ironic, aint it?

 

[BEES]

if a project of this nature were ever to take off, it would do infinitely more damage to B+ than P:M ever could. you'd just create another split in the community.

kinda ironic, aint it?

Would it be a split? I see it as more of a continuation of the Brawl+ project under a new name.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Would it be a split? I see it as more of a continuation of the Brawl+ project under a new name.

You honestly can't see how a mod of a mod not endorsed or supported by the original creators might cause a split?

 

[BEES]

You honestly can't see how a mod of a mod not endorsed or supported by the original creators might cause a split?

It's possible, though it's questionable whether any project like that could have any longevity without some of the Brawl+ creators on board.

 

[Kati]

er, well I've been trying to take this all in, but I might have missed something. I can't keep up entirely with the debating... but what if:

What if the shields were tweaked to be weaker? for the purpose of having them break more often as opposed to simply being hit beforehand? I would still want shield tilting to be as important as it is.

Defense would be less desirable, and a gameplay element that has been present, but sleeping, since ssb64 could be utilized. Breaking shields happens how often in pro matches? what about scrubs..?

This option pops out to me simply because it looks like it wouldn't be too drastic (I'm thinking only a minor decrease would have to do before being noticed) but would encourage more offensive gameplay.

 

[Alphatron]

Shields didn't break all that often in melee either. To be honest, making shields weaker wouldn't satiate anyone's desires because that alone would not make the gameplay faster. You'd probably just get more complaints about how much weaker the shields became.

It's actually possible to come close to breaking shields with pressure combos if you play with Marth, Ness, or Yoshi.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh. The only negative thing about shields in B+ is the fact that it is still easy to powershield. That coupled with the BAD makes the game overly easy to play defensively or campy.

The modification of the two would speed the gameplay up.

 

[cobaltblue]

You honestly can't see how a mod of a mod not endorsed or supported by the original creators might cause a split?

With the way some of the more pro people have been talking about B+, PM alone is going to cause a decent split.

At any rate it would be interesting to play a game that goes forward with the given codes we have rather than backwards.

 

[SGTR]

IDK if this is possible, but has anyone thought to add lag from an airdodge when contact with the ground is made, or ledge even

heres an example

your high up and a toon link is about to uair u
so u air dodge (of course) and your fine, u have played defensively and it has aided u
but now when u hit the ground u should be punished for your defensiveness
so i propose adding 2-4 frames of landing lag for every air dodge done between contacts with ground or ledge

so if u air dodge 3 times in the air, youd get and additional 10 or so frames of land lag

again its probably not possible right now, but i think it might provide a simple deterrant to playing defensively in the air, so that 1 airdodge is ok, 5 could severely hurt your game
just something to think about
~rogue

EDIT: also to not hurt the traditional safety of an air dodge, 1 AD could add 0 additional frames of lag as to not slow down any gameplay, but start the counting at 2 AD's, just another idea
~rogue

 

[Deleted member]

You could just add like 10-20 frames of lag after completion of BAD in the air or upon landing if you were concerned about how effective it is as a defensive ploy.

 

[SGTR]

well i dont think 1 air dodge should be punished nearly as much as the 2nd or 3rd, maybe 5, then 20, then 40 to really punish those super defensive players

also i dont think that it should apply if the air dodge is cancelled by the ground as it would eliminate AD buffering, which is essential to good luigi players

 

[BEES]

the airdodge is the right speed

attacks are just too slow

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

Hmmm I'm thinking you really couldn't redo shields to make them weaker due to it would really hinder heavyweights guarding even more than it does currently right now. I mean take rob for example hes a great character for being a heavyweight but the thing is his shield doesn't exactly cover his entire body. I'm not sure the time duration on the shields but larger characters just get dominated sort of easily for because of how shields are just from brawl normally.

 

[Alphatron]

The airdodges are pretty much fine(as fine as they can be as long as it is still the brawl airdodge). The buffered power shielding is what really gets on my nerves. However, I understand that this currently can not be fixed.

 

[shanus]

The airdodges are pretty much fine(as fine as they can be as long as it is still the brawl airdodge). The buffered power shielding is what really gets on my nerves. However, I understand that this currently can not be fixed.

B+ gold should have the code in it that fixes buffered power shields that i wrote.

 

[Revven]

It does.

10chars

 

[ValTroX]

B+ gold should have the code in it that fixes buffered power shields that i wrote.

Please add it

 

[FrozenHobo]

B+ gold should have the code in it that fixes buffered power shields that i wrote.

It does.

10chars

Please add it

pay attention.

 

[ValTroX]

It's one of the things that just NEEDS to be in, also PLEASE guys, have a look at friction, you know it doesn't feel right

 

[Revven]

Nothing is being changed right now Valtrox, not even friction.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Nothing is being changed, it's a good thing in some ways, one is for testing

the bad way is that, if a character needs something or needs that X, Y, it won't be added till almost december, as 6 months need to be waited for character changes

the only thing that could make a change before that time is reached, is like a bug that could mess with the game, or an infinite and :O you get the idea

Many stuff could be changed to make the gameplay much smoother, we will need to wait a bit longer

 

[Perfect Chaos]

the only thing that could make a change before that time is reached, is like a bug that could mess with the game

Apparently, not even that, since I've reported a pretty stupid glitch with the ICs, and got no response to it here. I then told shanus about it, he proposed a possible solution, posted that here, and still no response. I'm hoping that it's at least being looked at in the back room, but I have my doubts...