Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[goodoldganon]

What characters do you find to specifically slow? I always thought most characters felt quick, except for a few characters like Toon Link and Olimar who the WBR decided to remain vBrawl like.

I also don't get how people don't see that smaller boundaries speeds the game up. Because you can actually combo into a kill moves it actually makes approaching, not camping, and just playing offense that much more viable. Sure, you can still shield camp, but with smaller boundaries offensive players can push and actually kill much easier now.

Many characters can't camp and still go into their kill moves, least in my experience. (I don't play against all 39 characters) The only two that can in my experience are Snake and Zelda and that has kind of always been their thing. I just don't get why everyone is complaining now out of no where. Veril posted the final goals for 7.03 at least 3-4 times and I literally saw no one say 'Why aren't you increasing gravity?' I don't think I ever saw anyone mention gravity when people brought up 7.0 being gold.

 

[Bandit]

What characters do you find to specifically slow? I always thought most characters felt quick, except for a few characters like Toon Link and Olimar who the WBR decided to remain vBrawl like.

I also don't get how people don't see that smaller boundaries speeds the game up. Because you can actually combo into a kill moves it actually makes approaching, not camping, and just playing offense that much more viable. Sure, you can still shield camp, but with smaller boundaries offensive players can push and actually kill much easier now.

Many characters can't camp and still go into their kill moves, least in my experience. (I don't play against all 39 characters) The only two that can in my experience are Snake and Zelda and that has kind of always been their thing. I just don't get why everyone is complaining now out of no where. Veril posted the final goals for 7.03 at least 3-4 times and I literally saw no one say 'Why aren't you increasing gravity?' I don't think I ever saw anyone mention gravity when people brought up 7.0 being gold.

Jiang brought up gravity and it was angrily shot down immediately. Gravity has been a constant suggestion from people in the community.

The boundaries make the match end faster. The game play is still slow. We are complaining about both because the boundaries were an artificial fix for the latter.

The matches, with 4 stock, were taking less time than vBrawl matches. Making the matches 3 stock could've been just as easy as changing the boundaries.

People living to vBrawl percents was the other complaint. The boundaries definitely fix this, but removing the sakurai angles helped too. Gimping is not prevelant in this game, and it is still true. And people are still living to vBrawl percents because kill combos are hard to come by for some characters.

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If you are an offensive player, that is great, but I'm sure I could find many defensive players who would be more successful. Some characters lend themselves to it like Bowser, Zelda, Snake but other characters like Falco could be offensive but it is more effective to camp lasers. Brawl+ is just like Brawl in the case that forcing approaches is still the dominant thing. Defense still wins.

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I think you guys should take it one step at a time. Remove the sakurai angles before you guys make the stages smaller. You might end up with people dying a little too early.

There are two big reasons that reverting some moves with the Sakurai angle is nowhere near as effective as altering the boundaries.

1. There simply aren't enough strictly KO moves with the angle for that to be effective across the cast. Sure there are characters like Bowser who have a really prominent KO move with the Sakurai angle that can't ever combo, but there are also characters like Kirby and Jiggs who have substantial overlap with KO/combo moves that have this angle (Kirby's bair and Jiggs fair). Some characters have very few KO moves that have this angle period. It just isn't an even distribution.

2. Taking away the Sakurai angle will emphasize KOing off the side (with average DI), except in the case of more advanced survival DI (like quarter circle DI or double stick DI). The ceilings are being brought lower to a greater degree than the sides are being moved inward. So the effect of removing the Sakurai angle and reducing the ceilings aren't complementary when people are getting optimal trajectories for survival. And if they aren't the only effect is that they no longer get the added benefit of auto-DI.

Hmm, how can I explain this better? Basically if you are DIing a formerly "sakurai angle" move perfectly the stage boundary changes are going to have a more pronounced effect than than if you aren't DIing, in which case the removal of auto-DI would have more of an effect.

tl;dr I'm doing both, but stage boundary change is a much more important fix than the removal of the sakurai angle. Taking away the Sakurai angle is meant to emphasize skill with DI moreso than substantially reduce KO%. The boundary adjustments also are geared towards lowering the ceilings than making side KOs earlier (though they will be somewhat earlier on several stages)

-----

How do you guys feel about how long people survive in this game? I personally believe that people survive much too long, it seems like most of one's kills come not gimping (which is much less prominent in this game) but from actually finishing someone off screen. Often I've seen people are surviving well beyond 120%+. The sense of vulnerability and the riskiness of being off the ledge is still there, but has been watered down from the previous installments of smash. You can argue that this is a new game, but that sense of danger when you're knocked off is what made smash so fun.

I realize that the backroom is indeed doing something to fix this: making stage boundaries smaller, but I don't really like this idea. I'm not sure how to word it. When I come up with why, I'll be sure to let you guys know.

I'd like to point out what I believe causes people to survive so long and then talk about what we can do about it (if anything):

1. Characters are still rather floaty.
2. Reimplementation of stale moves.
3. It's still too easy to recover.
4. DI is too powerful.
5. Powershielding on accident sometimes shifts defense to offense, prolonging fights.

Number 1 can be fixed with gravity, but you guys already came to the conclusion that making characters heavier, whether or not it would improve the game, is too much work due to all the retweaking of the moves it would require and since you're too far along in the development this would be incredibly stupid to do since you're trying to get this game done as soon as possible. (Which I still don't understand, this is a fan-made game, so we have no deadlines, and this is supposed to be the definite version of Smash..) But fine, if that's your guy's conviction, the fast paced gameplay can be saved for Project M.

For Number 2, I realize that the stale moves was reintroduced but only at 75% the power. I don't think anything needs to be done, but this adds to why people die later.

Number 3 I believe strongly needs to be addressed. Overall recoveries are too powerful and too easy to use. Some have hitboxes in places that don't make sense, or hitboxes that are ridiculously strong for no reason (Mario's UpB, Ganon's UpB, Wolf's Forward B) making them annoying to punish and grab boxes that grab at absurdly long distances. (Captain Falcon's upB, Samus' UpB) I personally believe that everyone's recovery should be pretty easy to screw with, it's just the distances and ease at which they can return that should vary.

Number 4 is another issue that I believe really needs to be looked at. Watching some recent Brawl+ vids between more experienced players, many people DI almost nearly straight up against finishing moves. I'm not familiar with Melee's DI system, but I do know that in Melee it was really hard to DI, whether it was because it got harder at higher percents, or the timing was more precise or for some other reason, but I am pretty sure that it required a bit more expertise in Melee. I believe that this is something that should be looked into as well.

Number 5 is something I brought up a bit ago, but I believe that you guys are already addressing, but I threw it in there just for thoroughness.


I personally don't think the big stage boundaries are an issue, because if people were easier to gimp/flew at lower angles at higher percents, it'd actually be beneficial to have more breathing room off stage to allow the dance that is edge guarding to take place.

I've said it, TheCape has probably said it, and I know Veril has said it: gravity is not going to be changed. Period. It's too much to start the project completely over when it's so close to being balanced as is.

I think having powerful recoveries is a good thing. It softens the learning curve for any Brawl newcomers, while forcing higher level players to innovate, and could paradoxically end up producing a deeper edge game overall, as opposed to the comparatively passive on-the-stage dominated Melee game. *gasp*

Screw learning curve, man.. Recovering isn't a multi button technique like wavedashing. You hit upB/sideB and you aim for the ledge. There's nothing to it. There isn't anything technical about it. If you get punished for being sloppy about it, you'll adapt. Most people understand that your character will either have a good one or a bad one. If you guys really cared about Brawl newcomers learning curve, why did you make lucario and diddy's upB kill them on impact on the edge? Those changes.. *gasp* increased the learning curve of those characters (Quite a bit, I may add, especially for your precious Brawl players).

And I thought we stopped caring what Brawl newcomers a year ago the moment this project was boastfully dubbed Brawl+? (I hope you guys realize what that name even implies..)



Theorycraft.

It's been a year, and a lot of what I've seen develop in Brawl+'s edge game is a sense of futility to even bother trying to keep your opponent off the edge. They can air dodge, and recover with their huge snap distance. And sometimes going out there to hit your enemy be it a projectile or even a strong move ends up HELPING them come back. The DI is too powerful, and recoveries are too powerful. If these two things are toned down a bit, even if it was just the grab range of some upBs, it would help the game out tremendously in overall pace.



You know, I agree that the gravity change would be a huge overhaul, and I officially declare that I think it would be a bad idea to throw it in there at this time. However, it doesn't mean that Brawl+2 should be without it...



I really don't understand why people want to end this project. It doesn't make sense. We have a unique opportunity to change things in the game, keep things fresh over the years, especially when the patching process is effortless and quick. (Even more so than the games people pay actual money for!)

It's really a waste of potential to stop changing things in a game because of "change fatigue" (wtf? Are you guys Victorian damsels locked in the home perpetually on the verge of fainting to an overwhelming of the senses?) It's been a year, and we don't even have all the tools we need to balance this game and you guys want to call it quits. I don't get it. I agree with letting a build sit for a while and let the tiers develop, but I certainly don't agree with giving up on a project just because it's "good enough", which quite frankly seems to be the theme of this project as of late.

This was Jiang at the beginning of March. This was Jiang being blown off at the beginning of March. This was Jiang speaking what everyone really wanted to say.

I quoted it all because this is pretty much still true.

I <3 Jiang

 

[ValTroX]

WOW ;ots of walls of text xD, spent like half an hour reading them all. So here's mu thoughts:
1)I like boundary changes on some stages. but some of them are just too small. In PTAD i was dying at 70%

2)The top boundaries seem too small overall, as mentioned before, characters with moves that have some vertical kb became beasts, not to mention Pika's thunder, which just MURDERS now.

3)Also as mentioned before, the boundary changes do NOT make the game faster, makes matches end sooner, but the same speed of game. people need to understand that this are different concepts

4)@FroHo: God forbid people who quit B+ for P:M this early, B+ is the best brawl feeling I've ever had, and most of us will continue playing it for a long time, but seriously, the latest set needs some work.

 

[FrozenHobo]

reading those posts, i can really see where jiang is/was coming from.

i want to say that i like how the current set plays, but i would be interested in seeing what higher dgrav could do.

edit: val, now that i'm done with finals i'll look at PTAD's boundaries.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

I agree with Val.

I also love for what was quote by Jiang because I have had this disucssion many of times with friends and while it does make sense it doesn't make sense to ruin the entire move. (my thoughts an opinions below)

If you guys really cared about Brawl newcomers learning curve, why did you make lucario and diddy's upB kill them on impact on the edge? Those changes.. *gasp* increased the learning curve of those characters (Quite a bit, I may add, especially for your precious Brawl players).

I too would like to know the answer to this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand that a good character shouldn't have a great comeback but look at how many characters do. The characters specifically I am talking about are fox, Zelda, Pikachu... Im pretty sure theres a couple more but cant think off hand. (I understand due to no Directional Influence for fox and Zelda/sheik after the move is done that is bad but its still a great return non the less) Reason I keep talking about Lucarios return is because its not that good and its nowhere on the same level of great returns as those other ones. I mean hell even Pikachus attacks you and will hit you free from the ledge.

Sure Luacario might have an awesome ground game but o wait the characters I mentioned above also have a equivilent I want to say game play and is the same if not more deadlier than lucarios.

 

[proteininja]

On some stages it feels like my character explodes immediately upon contact with the edge of the screen.

My problem isn't with where the death boundaries are, but with the fact that now the distance between the camera edge and the deathbox on some stages is nothing. I could always count on having a bit of room outside of the screen edge to work with, and on some stages that is still intact, but on others I swear i have seen the explosion begin while a portion of my character is still visible(like a foot or a hand or something) Is there any way to standardize the distance between the visible edge or play and the death box?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

I played vs a great smash player, and the only complaint he had is that bowser's side B now kills at near 100% damage, but, nothing more, the boundries are not bad if you know to DI, but lets stop the darn plot lol

-Namq

 

[VietGeek]

On some stages it feels like my character explodes immediately upon contact with the edge of the screen.

My problem isn't with where the death boundaries are, but with the fact that now the distance between the camera edge and the deathbox on some stages is nothing. I could always count on having a bit of room outside of the screen edge to work with, and on some stages that is still intact, but on others I swear i have seen the explosion begin while a portion of my character is still visible(like a foot or a hand or something) Is there any way to standardize the distance between the visible edge or play and the death box?

To my understanding nearly all stage boundary modifications have been done by the Death Boundary Code. This code, to my limited if not just often shady knowledge, does not control camera boundaries at all. Those changes must be applied to the stage .pacs themselves. In an attempt to reduce the download size on the set, only DLC stage .PACs were included.

I've noticed this phenomenon particularly on originally high-ceiling stages like Final Destination and Smashville. Can any of you guys note any other stages where the death boundary - camera boundaries were notably small?

 

[CountKaiser]

PTAD is an offender of this, as CTL can attest to this.

 

[wowoduend]

When something good comes to a game, some people can still complain about it obv :/

I'd hate for Brawl+ to disappear after P:M gets released. The game has gone this far to become noticed within the Smash community and in tournys. Now i'm seeing some or few people getting bored of it(reasonable). The B+ Backroom spent all their time approving B+ and i hate to see all their work going to waste just because people are leaving B+ for P:M. I heard Veril spent days trying to modify the stage boundary and i also hate to see that going to waste. If B+ stops getting support after a few years of P:M being released, then so much for B+ being a standard game.....

P:M might even come down to this point too. Who knows.....

Though i can't say this until this actually happens for now. Just to be sure, im not hating P:M btw. Though im looking forward to it

 

[Alex 615]

Pokemon Stadium 2 has the same problem with vertical boundaries. If the camera is all the way out, you'll die almost as soon as you leave the top of the screen.

 

[JCaesar]

PTAD is an offender of this, as CTL can attest to this.

Haha omg, we were dying on PTAD well inside the camera boundaries. It was weird.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

iirc, Kaiser at one point died without even being off the stage

 

[CountKaiser]

I remember CTL trying to follow up with an uair after a dthrow, and he went too far and killed himself.

 

[Deleted member]

The gravity tweaking argument makes no sense. This game is supposed to be an improvement over Brawl and not a reincarnation of Melee.

If you increased the gravity, made it harder to recover, changed DI, improved edgeguarding, and improved gimping, then you are essentially playing Melee without certain technical aspects. I'm sure that is not the aim of this project.

Without making gravity increase, there are ways to speed this up.

Making it harder to recover.
Shrinking recovery hitboxes.
Reducing sweetspot ledge grab range.
Recovery beginning/end lag.
Adding more gimp features.
Editing boundries.
Editing DI.
Brawl Airdodge going into free fall with endlag.
And many more..

Gravity is not a feasible option for a game that is not Melee and already has an appropriate balance of characters.

 

[Revven]

Need I remind you folks that we only currently have the control over SDI, not DI itself, which is an entirely different manner on its own. PSA has been around for months and most of the values have been found, not one of those values that's been found has a clue towards the control over DIability. Yes the Sakurai angle has a hand in DI somewhat but it's not the main factor.

So in other words, there's no feasible way to fix DI right now and if you know how, please educate everyone in your vast knowledge over it because if there was a way to control DI at the moment that would make this post completely void.

 

[Bandit]

The gravity tweaking argument makes no sense. This game is supposed to be an improvement over Brawl and not a reincarnation of Melee.

If you increased the gravity, made it harder to recover, changed DI, improved edgeguarding, and improved gimping, then you are essentially playing Melee without certain technical aspects. I'm sure that is not the aim of this project.

Without making gravity increase, there are ways to speed this up.

Making it harder to recover.
Shrinking recovery hitboxes.
Reducing sweetspot ledge grab range.
Recovery beginning/end lag.
Adding more gimp features.
Editing boundries.
Editing DI.
Brawl Airdodge going into free fall with endlag.
And many more..

Gravity is not a feasible option for a game that is not Melee and already has an appropriate balance of characters.

So what you are saying is...

If Brawl+ continues to use the inferior model of Brawl as their base instead of the superior model of Melee, they would be making a game that is better suited towards the original "goal" but would be less liked by the community.

It's a community game. You give the community what they want or else they don't play it. Simple as that.

 

[RPGsFTW]

On some stages it feels like my character explodes immediately upon contact with the edge of the screen.

^ This. It is a weird feeling dying like that.

By chance, is anyone else having texture difficulties with the new stages? Normally I just export the texture data on the textured stage, and replace the texture data on the B+ version and save. That usually works fine.

But for me, my stages are weird. My FoD Battlefield texture now looks like only parts of the texture changed, and the same goes for my Sakura Smashville. The Sakura tree is still a stump, but the stage is pink.

 

[ValTroX]

I think that making the edges of stages a little smaller(aka removing brawl magnet) could make the game a little better. IMO, the boundaries needed to be smaller, but not to the extends that they are now. Anyways, character-wise, the game feels great,all of the stage fixes(on walls ans stuff) are working great, so all that's left is a little tweak on the current boundaries and maybe smaller edges and we got ourselves a wonderful set.

 

[VietGeek]

^ This. It is a weird feeling dying like that.

By chance, is anyone else having texture difficulties with the new stages? Normally I just export the texture data on the textured stage, and replace the texture data on the B+ version and save. That usually works fine.

But for me, my stages are weird. My FoD Battlefield texture now looks like only parts of the texture changed, and the same goes for my Sakura Smashville. The Sakura tree is still a stump, but the stage is pink.

You have to port some model data for those individual cases, this includes lighting effects on Otherworldly Battlefield 2.0, etc.

I haven't exactly pinpointed everything for that exportation either. <__<

 

[MuBa]

If you want improvement of Brawl then go play Balanced Brawl.

Brawl+ is something more grandiose and complex than BB.

Making it look more like Brawl would be a terrible idea in every way, shape, or form. Honestly you're better off making a hybrid of -> Melee's face paced action and N64s combo-**** game (Of course not constant 0-death combos but you get my point xD).

 

[Seris]

i thought the goal of the boundary reduction was to stop people from living too long, not increase speed of play. I still think waiting 6 months to make anymore changes is a good idea, even if there are some big changes afterwards. The good thing about brawl+ so far is that it has been easy for people from both communities (brawl and melee) to adapt and enjoy playing. If the physics change too radically, we might lose the players who still enjoy playing regular brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

So what you are saying is...

If Brawl+ continues to use the inferior model of Brawl as their base instead of the superior model of Melee, they would be making a game that is better suited towards the original "goal" but would be less liked by the community.

It's a community game. You give the community what they want or else they don't play it. Simple as that.

Eh. I never said one game was better than the other. It's a matter of opinion.

I am satisfied with the current B+ metagame before and after the boundry changes.

What the community seems to be asking for is identical to what the Melee playstyle is based off of which is not the goal of the project even when another project exists specifically dedicated to emulating Melee.

 

[GPDP]

What the community seems to be asking for is identical to what the Melee playstyle is based off of which is not the goal of the project even when another project exists specifically dedicated to emulating Melee.

Even if all the character physics were identical to Melee, it still wouldn't play at all like Melee. Hell, in many ways, it wouldn't feel like Melee even then. It would be closer, but still far from it.

Also, need I remind you the only reason the project compromised and decided not to pursue Melee-esque physics during the early days of the project was because we lacked so many of the codes and tools necessary to do so? It wasn't until later that the heads of the project turned this limitation into a kind of identity inherent to Brawl+, whence the line became "we're aiming to make it faster than Brawl's turtle pace, but not as fast as Melee's hyperspeed twitch gameplay." Yet the slogan "Fun Speed Activate," coined before this change of line, says it was once otherwise.

 

[crazycrackers]

I don't even understand why people are still asking for a Melee 2.0. I believe thats the whole point of Project M anyway. Brawl+ decided to take a different route, it is its own smash game.

 

[StrikerX22]

Forgive my lack of tact and experience, but please have a good look at this.

Unfortunately when I discussed this matter with Cape awhile back, he said something like that would never be possible, because it removes the 'Brawl' from 'Brawl+'.

----What? I think that's jumping the gun. You're here to CHANGE brawl and make it BETTER, not just balance it. Everyone's here playing B+ cuz they want CHANGE, or they'd just be playing vBrawl or Melee. Not every change is welcome, but if it makes it better for gameplay, it should be, usually.

Any aerial with vertical knockback angle just got a huge buff with the lower ceilings.

-Sounds like a significant enough change to consider the implications.

The whole reason that this game feels slow is not because stuff doesn't combo as well as it used to or that the games were taking longer; it has everything to do with this:

A superior defensive game is the best option.

Projectile camping, bair camping, 'nade camping, etc is still the superior option rather than offensive approaches. The shield is huge and there is never a threat of it breaking. The shield stun may not allow for much OoS action which slows down shield camping, but it doesn't mean that defense isn't the best option

-Not saying BR isn't fighting this in small ways, but I think this is one of the biggest issues with vBrawl, no? This is one of the biggest aims for B+ then, right?

Lee Martin and Ally. The biggest complaint about both players was that they were playing the matches like they were still playing brawl.

----Ouch. Think about that. That's not good, that's bad. We don't want this part of brawl. Often that's just how it's gonna be... parts of brawl have to be different. You know this.

I don't like the mentality that B+ can't go in a direction that could vastly improve the gameplay because it is so late in its production, but I also fully understand why it couldn't really be done.

We have 6 months ahead of us, and yes, we could overhaul the entire game, but the amount of rage there would be coming to a brand new game after 6 months with the current set would be just ridiculous.

Right now, the best thing for players to do is accept the direction B+ has taken and do everything they can to make that direction feel as natural as possible and play as best as it can.

----Correct me if I'm wrong, but there IS no "late in production." It is simply a choice. Most of us probably think it's the wrong choice. At this point, I don't think there SHOULD be 6 months. Forget saving face. Good gameplay will speak for itself. We're here for changes to the game, so chances lessen for us to rage (legitimately) over changes which will likely improve the game. It will NOT be a "brand new game." It might feel different, but be serious. Even P:M is going to be recognizable. We expect there to be things to adapt to. Good things, that is. And I see no reason for players to accept the boundary change. It is a sudden thing for "Gold," and even if it wasn't gold, it's still drastic, as recent posts show (not to mention the feel is just off). In the end, I have to wonder if the 6 month break and the "late in production" spiel is more so that there can be more focus on P:M than for any stated reason. That's just how it feels.

The gravity tweaking argument makes no sense. This game is supposed to be an improvement over Brawl and not a reincarnation of Melee.

If you increased the gravity, made it harder to recover, changed DI [not possible yet], improved edgeguarding, and improved gimping, then you are essentially playing Melee without certain technical aspects. I'm sure that is not the aim of this project.

Without making gravity increase, there are ways to speed this up.

Making it harder to recover.
Shrinking recovery hitboxes.
Reducing sweetspot ledge grab range.
Recovery beginning/end lag.
Adding more gimp features.
Editing boundries.
Editing DI.
Brawl Airdodge going into free fall with endlag.
And many more..

Gravity is not a feasible option for a game that is not Melee and already has an appropriate balance of characters.

----lolwut. No. Just because Melee HAPPENS to have something that would make the game better (less floating), doesn't mean it should be avoided out of fear that it will look like Melee (what??). It sounds a lot more like ppl are afraid of having P:M, their new baby, not be as awesome because Brawl+ will start mirroring it somewhat. oh noes. But in reality, the Brawl"+" is the one that's supposed to have new features, and Melee "2.0" is more like Melee in a Brawl setting. Sure, add new features to make it better, no one will complain for any good reason. And thus you can see how the two will overlap. But Brawl "feel" should only be kept where it is a good feel. This is paramount. Speaking of which, I'm not one to speak on it much, but wouldn't changing air dodge as mentioned here be a pretty big difference in feel/function? Like out of tumble? If it's a problem, then sure, but that's "brawl feel."

If you want improvement of Brawl then go play Balanced Brawl.

Brawl+ is something more grandiose and complex than BB.

Making it look more like Brawl would be a terrible idea in every way, shape, or form.

----This. Even BB has some codes that make it better general gameplay though, like no tripping. That means B+ is going even further than that sort of thing, as a matter of course.

The good thing about brawl+ so far is that it has been easy for people from both communities (brawl and melee) to adapt and enjoy playing. If the physics change too radically, we might lose the players who still enjoy playing regular brawl.

----Oh come on. It'd take a lot to scare off people that play(ed) vBrawl that play Brawl+. Sorry, but the initial glow of B+ prolly doesn't appeal to Melee players as much as it used to (out of hope). Once again, people are expecting improvements, not just another BB. And you definitely won't see Melee players complaining (smart ones anyway).

[Originally Posted by Bandit]
[... If Brawl+ continues to use the inferior model of Brawl as their base instead of the superior model of Melee, they would be making a game that is better suited towards the original "goal" but would be less liked by the community. ...]

Eh. I never said one game was better than the other. It's a matter of opinion.

-*twitch.* I've liked playing brawl for its new content and a thing or two otherwise, but you really think this? If P:M were perfectly similar to Melee gameplay wise, would you still be saying that? Essentially that Melee 2.0 and vBrawl are simply up to opinion as to which is better. I doubt it.

I am satisfied with the current B+ metagame before and after the boundry changes.

-I'd imagine they're pretty different. You entirely sure of that?

What the community seems to be asking for is identical to what the Melee playstyle is based off of which is not the goal of the project even when another project exists specifically dedicated to emulating Melee.

----If by Melee playstyle you mean "not floaty and slow feeling" then yes. Certain things should be equivalent if it's simply better. And on the other hand, there will be other options like you've mentioned to aid in fixing some problems. That doesn't mean gravity isn't a good solution. If the good solution happens to be a melee one, so be it. But I'm all for trying to find an even better one. Imagination will have to be used, but that's fun for us.

========

In the end, I still want the game itself to move faster, though I'm not sure how possible that is. Back when I was looking into B+ 4.# I thought I noticed a change about the actual game speed being altered, though I'm not 100% on that. Please keep in mind I'm not much of a melee fan and never owned it/gamecube. I played it with a friend a lot but yeah. So, as a brawl fan (without saying the game itself is "better"), I say I prefer things to move faster. I can only imagine this would inflict more disruption on moves coded than gravity would, altering frame-specific mechanics, but it would be worth it I'd think, though char grav's might have to be nudged a bit down. Lightning melee is awful, but it's fun. Obviously that's too much, but I believe it really does have potential.

And if the Balance needs to be completely revamped, Brawl+2 (or ++) is a grand idea, so you can keep the current balance as Brawl+ (perhaps without the boundary changes which weren't really in the spirit of balance or good feel, were they?), and then mess everything up in a new beta.

Once again, forgive my lack of tact and experience, as well as my post length. I want to see this turn out as good as it can be.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm glad people think enough to insert their own misconceptions into my post then skew the point.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Did I miss something?

Why the sudden uprising of people wanting to change the physics? Where were you guys a month ago?

 

[CanadaKid91]

Why does the gravity have to be either as high as melee or as low as brawl grav?
A slight increase is all that's really required to make a difference....

At this point I'm starting to feel like the Brawl+ devs are just too busy with other commitments to care about what the community wants. Oh well, they still deserve a big thank you for all that they've done.

 

[Dai Tian]

A month ago? A month ago was hardly the best time to be asking for changes since that was when the newly released set was virtually unplayable. People were more concerned with actually getting to keep the set stable for more than a minute.

I'm willing to bet that it's because the boundary changes hadn't been personally seen at the time by many. Now that they have, there's actually a reason to push for gravity changes again since the current "fix" isn't really doing the job.

 

[MuBa]

 

[ValTroX]

ok, played some more B+, and I think the boundaries changes went too far, after you enter the "bubble" you're dead. The should be stretched a little more IMHO. but not to vBrawl standards please

 

[goodoldganon]

ok, played some more B+, and I think the boundaries changes went too far, after you enter the "bubble" you're dead. The should be stretched a little more IMHO. but not to vBrawl standards please

I believe, as Viet said, the reason for that is because the WBR went with a smaller download size for the whole set. If we want the boundary changes to adjust with the bubble we need pacs which hurts textures, and adds A LOT of space.

First I eat my words that no one wanted higher grav before now. Bandit is good at pulling up old posts. That being said, I still don't get it. I think the grav feels pretty solid for the characters that should have high gravity. Lots of characters have great gravity. I just don't understand who is causing problems for people.

I hate to use the cop out but you can't please everyone. For everyone upset that boundary changes didn't fix pace, I can find you one that likes it or wants it slightly polished a bit (dying before the bubble appears). I think Brawl+ is the best it has ever been and it truly accomplished its goal. It feels like an improved version of Brawl. Playing offense is viable now thanks to smaller boundaries, the cast is balanced, and yet it feels familiar. My only complaint is the huge ledge range. What do I know though?

 

[GHNeko]

i'm really happy for ya'll and imma let ya'll finish

but Japanese Brawl+ ver 703 has the best stages

green greens legal?

5-6 SSE stages?

AND MORE!?

Spoiler

and by more i mean more stage stuff i cant recall lol

wtf

how is japan 1-uping us at the game WE'RE making!?

 

[iLink]

^^ pics/links/vids or it didn't happen.

Wtf people want the gravity changed? It's fine, it really is. If you want to see some fast-paced matches then go see the ones Seris uploaded from his tournament.

The only thing that catches a lot of people off guard is how dramatic the boundaries were changed. I've had more then 1 complaint about how you esplode as soon as you go off screen. I still don't know how I feel about this myself actually.

 

[Seris]

Look at the TAG XXIX Catnip Vs Zex specifically. Both are in the Nor-Cal PR and I believe the matches represent high level of tournament play.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TanArmyGaming#p/c/ECC35AD7CAB657AF

 

[5ive]

Look at the TAG XXIX Catnip Vs Zex specifically. Both are in the Nor-Cal PR and I believe the matches represent high level of tournament play.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TanArmyGaming#p/c/ECC35AD7CAB657AF

WC Brawl+ OH MAN OMFGOMFGOFM

 

[Seris]

The link goes to a playlist which includes matches that are from players who do not primarily play Brawl+ or aren't extremely high in skill so I thought I would point out some good ones to watch where you can be confident the players know what they are doing. Catnip plays a fair amount of B+ while Zex is just good.

There is also a brawl+ playlist that has matches from 6.0 for comparison between the same players in the same environment.

 

[goodoldganon]

Catnip is hella legit and super cool to watch

 

[RPGsFTW]

Points to main in sig. <3

I demand more vids of Japan as well, Neko.