Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Wavedash Master]

....Can we please move that horrible 60 degree angle on Mario's uair?

I'm pretty sure that change wasn't well recieved. .__.

Knowing that I don't use Mario that much, could you elaborate a little so we know what's bad about it and why it needs to be changed?

 

[GHNeko]

Because it removes the versitility of the uair for one, makes it easier to DI than previously, combos properly only until mid percents to near low high, and makes it so that its better to hit with the inside of the hitbox (ie near his waist) rather tha with the whole hitbox itself.

Because it hits further up, DIing up and away makes it easier to get out as opposed to the previous angle which was lower and DIing out was more important and at least then, Mario had the horizontal speed and aerial momentum to keep up which was why it was so **** at juggling/comboing as you could SHFF Uair characters across whole stages at specific percents based on match up.

At high percents with the current hitbox, it sends them higher up than previously making following up harder than prior.

That and uair can no longer ganon-uair-edgeguard nor can it properly send opponents back when you hit them with a reverse uair which was a legit tactic on Smashville near the edge of the stage on the platform.

That's what I see wrong with it. :V

Overall, it was better at 45.

 

[Wavedash Master]

So basically the new up air ruins part of Mario's combo game. I'm going to have to agree on this with you. From what I've seen, Mario is decently good at KOing, and I feel his combo potential should not be nerfed if his KO potential is just going to be "decent". The angle should be put back.

 

[Me_Aludes]

I agree with GHNeko too. The older Uair was great. The new one is barely ok. Mario never deserved that nerf.

 

[iLink]

....Can we please move that horrible 60 degree angle on Mario's uair?

I'm pretty sure that change wasn't well recieved. .__.

What he said

 

[GPDP]

I also, erm, fifth that uair rollback.

 

[GHNeko]

If anything, either utilt or jab should be buffed imo. Or both.

Have jab hit up like Link's Second jab to allow for those string setups or have utilt hit at a 80-70 degree angle with higher BKB and/or lower KBG so that it combos less into itself and more into other moves like grabs, uairs, dairs, nairs, even jab to grab, or something that mario has that allows him to utilize the game he's known for.

I'd prefer a jab that hits up to link into grabs that links into throws that links into utilt that link into his whole moveset. The jab in grab would partially compensate for his ****ty grab range so it wouldnt have to be increased as his jab would sorta make up for that and the utilt...well thats just flavour for his game. Less bbq, more cajun, if you know what I mean.

But that's just my thought on how to buff mario. Keeps his weakness ie ****ty grab range and range in general and buffs what he's known for. Cumbooze.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I agree with GHNeko too. The older Uair was great. The new one is barely ok. Mario never deserved that nerf.

Actually, it was meant to be a buff. However, the new angle backfired and ended up doing more harm than good.

Honestly, the only buff he REALLY needs is a Grab Range increase. Beyond that he is a very solid close-range combo fighter with excellent gimp potential in place of below average KO ability. Unfortunately, the grab range will have to wait for the future until we figure out how to modify it.

 

[GHNeko]

I know it was supposed to be a buff. I was the first person who knew about it. Lulz.

I call it what it is though, a nerf. <3

And imo, jab hitting up and reworked utilt would do more than a grab range buff imo. But that's just me. I want to buff what he's good at. And considering how many jabs mario gets off, a jab that leads into a grab because its hits up would be more effective and give more options like Jab > Dsmash ala Luigi. ;D

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

marios already good ghneko. learn to di.

 

[GHNeko]

What do you mean learn to DI? >_>


And Mario is "okay"

 

[JCaesar]

Mario is only good if your name is Boss.

Trufax

 

[GHNeko]

Hence why I said Mario is "okay"

:V

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

marios good. ever thought it may be the player not the character? lol

 

[GHNeko]

He's okay. There are a bunch of Okay characters. He's one of them.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

your mario is ok.
mine is godlike.
my mario > your mario
I understand what you mean with the uair stuff they did to him (I also feel that way with toonlinks bair but doesn't hurt tl as much). what do you want them to do to his utilt though?

 

[GHNeko]

your mario is ok.
mine is godlike.
my mario > your mario
I understand what you mean with the uair stuff they did to him (I also feel that way with toonlinks bair but doesn't hurt tl as much). what do you want them to do to his utilt though?

Mario in general in comparison to the rest of the cast on equal playing level is "okay"

What I want to do to the utilt is more the angle down a bit so it hits forward a smidge, and give it more base KB and reduce the scaling (Reducing the scaling is optional) so that utilt combo's into itself less and sets up for easier utilts to grabs, and allows utilt to combo into other moves better.

Less utilt > Utilt and more utilt > ____ that isnt another utilt.

Kinda like what you said about Falco. :V

I dont even want it to be guarenteed. I want a really small window of escape for most characters, but only with really good timing. Even with buffer. :V

 

[Plum]

Mario is only brokenly good if your name is Boss.

Trufax

Fixed

The less Utilt to Utilt to Utilt to Uair in the game, the better. It's no wonder why people say B+ is so shallow when half the cast can combo Utilt into another Utilt all day, and then finish with a Uair. (a bit of an exaggeration, but for some characters its so true)

I thought the Uair angle was supposed to be fixed a while ago, but it's still there and still needs to be changed back to the original angle. It's not like Mario is a character that needs nerfs (even if it was supposed to be a buff) by any means. Mr average is exactly that unless its Boss behind the wheel...

 

[VietGeek]

It's no wonder why people say B+ is so shallow when half the cast can combo Utilt into another Utilt all day, and then finish with a Uair.

"Even with Cruise Control you still have to steer."

See 4chan produces some great things from time to time.

 

[leafgreen386]

Mario in general in comparison to the rest of the cast on equal playing level is "okay"

What I want to do to the utilt is more the angle down a bit so it hits forward a smidge, and give it more base KB and reduce the scaling (Reducing the scaling is optional) so that utilt combo's into itself less and sets up for easier utilts to grabs, and allows utilt to combo into other moves better.

Less utilt > Utilt and more utilt > ____ that isnt another utilt.

Kinda like what you said about Falco. :V

I dont even want it to be guarenteed. I want a really small window of escape for most characters, but only with really good timing. Even with buffer. :V

I'd like to note that if you're getting utilt -> grab, then you will also be able to utilt -> utilt, at least at certain percentages. There's no way around it. In fact, if you can't already do utilt -> grab, then making that work would probably make utilt chains even more prominent, unless the utilt were given fairly large growth so this stuff would only work at low percents, but that would make it less useful at high percents, as well.

 

[KOkingpin]

"Even with Cruise Control you still have to steer."

See 4chan produces some great things from time to time.

i wish ganon could uTilt to uTilt.... that would be sweet


ps uTilt combos were in Melee too ya know with mario, fox, and Falco. I dont think its something you can just remove without completely removing hitstun like vBrawl did.

 

[leafgreen386]

i wish ganon could uTilt to uTilt.... that would be sweet


ps uTilt combos were in Melee too ya know with mario, fox, and Falco. I dont think its something you can just remove without completely removing hitstun like vBrawl did.

Utilt combos existed, but weren't nearly as prevalent. A fox trying to repeatedly utilt you is just asking for you to escape, and with the large majority of characters there were far more reliable and more damaging options.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Utilt combos existed, but weren't nearly as prevalent. A fox trying to repeatedly utilt you is just asking for you to escape, and with the large majority of characters there were far more reliable and more damaging options.

make utilt combos weaker?
=o

 

[Mattnumbers]

Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair is a fine combo I think, I just don't like it when you get more than 2 utilts in a row. 3 is ok too sometimes I guess.

 

[SSBFalco]

Reading back, I'd like to add on to what Clinton said about Ness. I agree with him, Ness is outclassed at what he's supposed to be good at i.e. killing with his laggy yet supposedly stronger moves. Lucas has a very reliable kill move in F-smash while Ness's barely kills earlier, have to sweetspot it if you want any decent knockback, and has horrible lag and very punishable on miss. And don't get me started on his yo-yo smashes.

His ground game in general is sub-par, the only really decent ground move he has is u-tilt, which allows him to combo into his better aerials. Which brings me to the next point.

Ness is supposed to be an aerial character. He's supposed to fight mainly in the air, where he can dish out some damage through combos and space himself to outrange most attacks with his fair. Ness does an ok job at what he's supposed to do, but I'd like to see some improvements to bring him up to par with other characters that can do what he does only better, like Squirtle, who has a great air game AND ground game. Ness has to settle for an average air game and sub-par ground game. It just doesn't seem fair to me.

Now, I heard that Ness is being worked on, so I would like to just throw out some ideas that might be helpful.

1. Ness's fair is not a good combo move. Not only that, but, it is easily DI'd out of resulting in crappy damage. Ness's fair used to be good in vBrawl because NOBODY could combo, so fair not comboing wasn't so bad, it was mainly used to space and keep characters at bay.

In Brawl+, it still does its job, but it's just not a great aerial. Seeing as Ness is SUPPOSED to have above average aerial attacks, I suggest that it is either turned into a combo move, or kept as a spacing tool, but also turn it into a damage-racker. This way, it'll make players think twice about recklessly rushing in on Ness. Also, even if Ness's fair doesn't combo, it can still be used in a combo to rack up some extra damage.

2. Ness's Uair. Right now it can combo, though not very well. In Melee it could combo due to DJC, but we don't have that (not that we want that in Brawl+). It has too much endlag to keep a combo going, so it's usually only used during the low %s or as a combo finisher. It's also a barely decent at killing.

Once again, I believe Ness deserves to have GREAT aerials, not just good, seeing as he has a crappy ground game at best. It would be nice if this move turned into either a combo machine, or a vertical killer. We would only need to speed up the endlag on this move slightly to make it a good at comboing, right now the move has more endlag than DK's uair. Maybe just making it the same as DK's would be good enough?

3. Bair, Nair, and Dair are all fine at what they do. Bair is for low % combos and killing. Nair does its job well as a GTFO move, and has its uses in comboing and edgegaurding, as well. Dair is an amazing spike and can set up combos.

4. His ground game. None of us can deny that Ness's ground game is crap. This is my least favorite idea, but if all else fails, we can let him have an okay ground game. Right now, all his ground moves are highly situational, we can change this so they have more uses. The main problem with ftilt is the horrible cooldown it has been cursed with. If we cut down the endlag considerably, it can be used as a decent poke and spacing tool.

Utilt is decent right now, so I don't see it needing any changes, Ness doesn't need a good ground game, just decent. D-tilt is used to rack up damage on unsuspecting opponents, I don't really have any idea on what to do with this move.

His smashes are all very situational and aren't very good at what they're supposed to do, kill. Now, I personally don't like the idea of Ness killing early with his smashes, so I'd prefer to leave his smashes as highly situational moves while giving his tilts an acutal use.

5. His specials. PK Fire has been given more use thanks to dash dancing, it doesn't really need any improvements, maybe making it harder to DI out of, but not necessary.

PK Flash is very situational. It is hardly, if ever, used in a match. I'd like to see this move have an actual use, maybe give Ness another edgaurding tool? Right now it takes far too long to charge it completely. It's usually a better idea to go out there and gimp the opponent yourself than to try to use PK Flash to kill.

I'm not sure if PK Flash can be modified, but if it can, making it charge faster and making it a spike can be a safer alternative for Ness to use, since right now it's risky for Ness to jump out to gimp players because if they fail, getting back on stage is going to be trouble for Ness.

PSI Magnet. Pretty much useless and outclassed by Lucas's in every way possible. I would love to see this have a use instead of just stalling for a bit. Giving it less startup time would make it actually be able to absorb projectiles on reaction. Right now it's hard getting it up in time to absorb Falco's lasers. The endlag is also horrible. We have magnet cancelling, but that's only useable on ground, not air. Reducing endlag as well could help make this move serve its purpose.


That's all I have. Note, I'm not saying we should give Ness ALL these buffs, just a few of them.

 

[Nybb]

Ness suggestions

Yeah, most of what you said has been tossed around before, such as better down-B, better f-air, better PK fire, etc. However, DJC is being worked on for him, and it would make sense to me to hold off on other buffs until the glitches with the DJC code are sorted out, because I think that it would be a fairly big change to his game, and may be all he needs (probably not, but still). I personally think that DJC and the throw modifier code to make Ness have his infamous grab game back is all he needs, but we'll see.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

brawl+ needs character specific AT's

 

[Wavedash Master]

brawl+ needs character specific AT's

I'm not sure if advanced techniques are needed, but if we have to make two characters more different, ATs may be necessary to make them interesting. Lets say two combo oriented characters usually start their combos by using up-tilt or what not. Any change to one of the characters to make their moves more interesting in comboing either makes an untentional buff or nerf. ATs in this case can be invented in a way to which no buff or nerf would be made (since ATs are usually an designed and added mechanic that can be from past smash games or from our own mind) (So forth this is adding more depth)

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I'm not sure if advanced techniques are needed, but if we have to make two characters more different, ATs may be necessary to make them interesting. Lets say two combo oriented characters usually start their combos by using up-tilt or what not. Any change to one of the characters to make their moves more interesting in comboing either makes an untentional buff or nerf. ATs in this case can be invented in a way to which no buff or nerf would be made (since ATs are usually an designed and added mechanic that can be from past smash games or from our own mind) (So forth this is adding more depth)

just because a move is "more interesting" doesn't mean more people will use it. if its harder to do and more rewarding then people will go the extra bit to learn the AT. it doesnt have to be a really difficult, just some simple things.

 

[SSBFalco]

Yeah, most of what you said has been tossed around before, such as better down-B, better f-air, better PK fire, etc. However, DJC is being worked on for him, and it would make sense to me to hold off on other buffs until the glitches with the DJC code are sorted out, because I think that it would be a fairly big change to his game, and may be all he needs (probably not, but still). I personally think that DJC and the throw modifier code to make Ness have his infamous grab game back is all he needs, but we'll see.

While I personally would prefer not to have DJC return, if that's what the Ness mains want, then I'll adjust to his new playstyle. I do hope that DJC is all he needs, but I highly doubt that will make him much better. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[CloneHat]

Utilts need a tad more base KB for a nightly build, and we should see if it works out.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Why would we make a AT if it wasn't difficult? If it was simple, it would be easy to catch on to and I would imagine the AT would be somewhat rewarding (Meaning why would you not learn it if it was beneficial?). Might as well give the character a flat out buff if the AT is just going to be "simple". In the event ATs are made, they should have some difficulty so you can get punished for misusing them.

Edit: Against I'm on the subject of ATs, I'll give my opinion on Ness's double jump cancel. If this was added, I feel it would benefit his shield pressuring and spacing power. I mean, if Ness was pulling out aerials really close to the ground repeatedly, would you in your right mind just jump in the ****? It makes it a little tougher for you to approach Ness from the way I see it.

 

[SSBFalco]

Why would we make a AT if it wasn't difficult? If it was simple, it would be easy to catch on to and I would imagine the AT would be somewhat rewarding (Meaning why would you not learn it if it was beneficial?). Might as well give the character a flat out buff if the AT is just going to be "simple". In the event ATs are made, they should have some difficulty so you can get punished for misusing them.

Edit: Against I'm on the subject of ATs, I'll give my opinion on Ness's double jump cancel. If this was added, I feel it would benefit his pressuring and spacing power. I mean, if Ness was pulling out aerials really close to the ground repeatedly, would you in your right mind just jump in the ****? It makes it a little tougher for you to approach Ness from the way I see it.

If it DID give Ness the power to pressure, then I would be all for the DJC, but I don't think it would be that big of a tool. Ness can still be punished if he's randomly DJCing aerials left and right. Just jump in and outrange him if you can or wait until he's landing to rush in and attack or even run in and shield, wait for him to DJC an attack, and shieldgrab during his lagtime. This is all just speculation, though.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Sorry for the miswording. I meant it would help shield pressuring (I'll even fix it in my post). Well, you made it clear that the opponent would indeed to think about how he approaches Ness. Oblivously, if he was just sitting there spamming aerials, a smart player would easily punish Ness for it. I guess it matters how the Ness player utilizes the technique.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

ie snakes mortar slide, pikachus qac, etc

some would be easier than others, but something easy so that once you know it, its there

 

[XSilvenX]

ie snakes mortar slide, pikachus qac, etc

some would be easier than others, but something easy so that once you know it, its there

..... *sigh* Artificial ATs forced onto a character sounds like a bad idea to me and most likely it will be badly implemented if it's through the use of codes. Look at all the bugs we currently have with the sane stuff now we should add character specific ATs out of nowhere? Do you even have any ideas of what we can add or were you just throwing out the idea for the hell of it? Sounds like the latter to me.

Either way, ATs aren't really things you can fabricate easily, most of the time they're found out by accident and is a result of either a glitch or exploit of the game's/character's mechanics. Trying to PURPOSELY add character specific ATs just sounds pretty fail and will probably bring up undesired side effects.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

..... *sigh* Artificial ATs forced onto a character sounds like a bad idea to me and most likely it will be badly implemented if it's through the use of codes. Look at all the bugs we currently have with the sane stuff now we should add character specific ATs out of nowhere? Do you even have any ideas of what we can add or were you just throwing out the idea for the hell of it? Sounds like the latter to me.

Either way, ATs aren't really things you can fabricate easily, most of the time they're found out by accident and is a result of either a glitch or exploit of the game's/character's mechanics. Trying to PURPOSELY add character specific ATs just sounds pretty fail and will probably bring up undesired side effects.

oh ok that's nice. brawl+ should have WDing then.

 

[jokey665]

oh ok that's nice. brawl+ should have WDing then.

aaaaand that's why your name isn't gRAPE :V

 

[stingers]

As awesome as wavedashing is, IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE IN BRAWL+

=)

 

[metaXzero]

As awesome as wavedashing is, IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE IN BRAWL+

=)

Why must it be "no place"? I thought it was simply the previous codes being undesirable due to everyone getting Luigi dashes and MAD just not being good vs. BAD.