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[goodoldganon]

...You think he's hard to edgeguard?

10ikehasabadrecovery

The sword reaching the stage would be unpunishable. Least that's what I'm seeing from a relative speedup on the landing lag. It's something to mess with I'm sure, but I'm just saying it's my concern with taking that road.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont think it would be too much of an issue, as long as its still punishable on a spotdodge. :V

 

[Plum]

You may want to prepare yourself. G&W mains will be all over this like flies on ****. >.>

As always we are just going to get a "G&W is fine and doesn't need anything" response...

Some characters can still produce that Melee level of **** on G&W though. Then there's the whole lrn2di thing, but some characters are blessed with the ability to followup no matter how you DI. It's sad because his recovery is a lot worse without ASL, he isn't as floaty as the other characters in his weight class so basically he is just stupid easy to kill while being easier to kill than the others around his weight.

At this point I've grown to accept that G&W will never get any sort of buff no matter how small, or to how useless of a move (oh hai thar Chef and Ftilt)

But if ya ever want to make the character play perfectly, you know what to do

 

[Swordplay]

To quote Shanus, Ike is very tough to balance. We can't really do to much with speed since he won't feel like Ike or he'll be mad over powered. Giving him more power is redundant too. He isn't bad enough to warrant a retooling like Link either. Overall, I agree Ike feels very meh but I've seen him and gone on some nuts hot streaks with him. I don't know, it just varies from game to game.

I know, Why don't you do something suddle like improve the speed on counter to make it usable.

Or

Maybe focus on one attribute of Ike to improve that wouldn't affect anything else. An example of this would be neutral-b for edgegaurd. Could less endlag help Ike chase people who avoid it better? I'm not sure, I'd have to fool around with it.

I know its not something that would directly really help his metagame But I feel if you try to improve a move currently in his metagame You'll break him.

I think just one more option will make him feel fresh.




*I'm just trying to throw out suggestions.*

------------------------------

Edit: O you must have already speed up counter. It seems faster

 

[CountKaiser]

As always we are just going to get a "G&W is fine and doesn't need anything" response...

Some characters can still produce that Melee level of **** on G&W though. Then there's the whole lrn2di thing, but some characters are blessed with the ability to followup no matter how you DI. It's sad because his recovery is a lot worse without ASL, he isn't as floaty as the other characters in his weight class so basically he is just stupid easy to kill while being easier to kill than the others around his weight.

At this point I've grown to accept that G&W will never get any sort of buff no matter how small, or to how useless of a move (oh hai thar Chef and Ftilt)

But if ya ever want to make the character play perfectly, you know what to do

They don't want to buff characters. It looks bad on newcomers, who will just see the buffs as overpowering some characters.

 

[Arkaether]

As for the G&W buffs, at least you guys know your character is pretty much final. And you think you die fast? I main Jigglypuff.

 

[OmniOstrich]

To quote Shanus, Ike is very tough to balance. We can't really do to much with speed since he won't feel like Ike or he'll be mad over powered. Giving him more power is redundant too. He isn't bad enough to warrant a retooling like Link either. Overall, I agree Ike feels very meh but I've seen him and gone on some nuts hot streaks with him. I don't know, it just varies from game to game.

I feel like with Ike I win based on how many times my opponent screws up, not how many times i do well. I think you should work on his tilts primarily, or on ending lag.

The big heavy slow smashes are fine really, the massive disjointed hitboxes make at least usmash and fsmash useful (although dsmash is pretty terrible). His tilts however, short of some very situational stuff you can't use them. I feel like speeding them up wouldn't be too big of a deal, especially with decreased knockback. I'm imagining jab cancel>dtilt>utilt/fair/bair.

Otherwise tweaking ending lag might be cool, something similar to the way MK's fsmash works in brawl. It doesn't come out fast, so if you are close you can stop it, but when it finishes you can't punish much, if at all. It would make his other moves act similar to the way his aerials do with the auto L-cancelling.

 

[goodoldganon]

That's the nature of the heavy characters. They are meant to capitalize on mistakes. Heavies use their overwhelming power and priority to force mistakes.

Either way, buffing Ike's tilts the way you guys are suggesting will do two things:

Give Ike safe, powerful moves. It's one thing to give a character a safe poke when they have to be RIGHT next to you, but a whole nother beast to give it someone with a sword.

Require Ike to lose some power at the cost of speed. Something we shouldn't be doing with heavies. Let's make heavies better at what they do, not better at what others does.

And I repeat, heavies are used to pressure your opponents with massive power, range, and stun. Combine that with their ability to punish VERY well (Heavies have the most damaging TRUE combos in the game) and you have most of the heavies.

Either way, I'm thinking of looking into Ike here really soon. Let's face it, he attracted noobs in Brawl and that's what gave him a massive following. Noobs aren't coming over to Brawl+ they are fine with the casual aspects of vBrawl. Ike has a low player base so it's hard to adjust him. I'm watching Dodgeball at the moment but after it's over in a half hour I plan to try my Quick Draw buff.

 

[Deleted member]

As much as it pains me, I think IC should have a slower FF, Nana kills herself way too much.

 

[bajisci]

why was ganons side b made techable? -_-

 

[goodoldganon]

It was an unfortunate result of the teching code which became a necessity to Brawl+. Giza is trying to bring it back, but we have no luck at doing it. I would like Ganon's side-b to be untechable, but I don't think it will happen. In that case we have worked up extra ways to finalize the King of Evil.

 

[shanus]

why was ganons side b made techable? -_-

unavoidable repercussion of the frame based teching code :-(

we tried to fix it, but we couldnt

edit: ganon 2 ninja's in a row, i will have to kill you

 

[bajisci]

It was an unfortunate result of the teching code which became a necessity to Brawl+. Giza is trying to bring it back, but we have no luck at doing it. I would like Ganon's side-b to be untechable, but I don't think it will happen. In that case we have worked up extra ways to finalize the King of Evil.

fair enough

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why aerial choke needs to be fixed.

 

[Mattnumbers]

What is the reason for having Falco's up tilt be so fast?

 

[GHNeko]

So that it can combo into something that isnt another utilt. :V

 

[Kuga]

What is the reason for having Falco's up tilt be so fast?

Better Combo starter,but 2x is a bit too much >.<.Maybe a 1.5x.
I mean,god,its so ZERO lag.

 

[SimaMatt]

I hope this is the right thread for this...

but you guys really need to give Ness some ending lag on his pk thunder. It is incredibly stupid that he's able to sit there and spam the hell out of a fast, *controllable* projectile that's borderline safe on hit or miss. Infinite pk thunder is fine I guess...but please, give him some ending lag. PK thunder is basically its own character now. My friend quit b+ because of this.

on an unrelated note, falco's utilt looks hilarious when done over and over.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I hope this is the right thread for this...

but you guys really need to give Ness some ending lag on his pk thunder. It is incredibly stupid that he's able to sit there and spam the hell out of a fast, *controllable* projectile that's borderline safe on hit or miss. Infinite pk thunder is fine I guess...but please, give him some ending lag. PK thunder is basically its own character now. My friend quit b+ because of this.

on an unrelated note, falco's utilt looks hilarious when done over and over.

Even level 9 CPU's can get through PK thunder spam.........

 

[SimaMatt]

you're not using it right then ~_~; I just beat a level 9 computer using NOTHING but pk thunder.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Since PKT cannot be cancelled without running it into something if you get past it you can generally attack Ness while he is wide open.

At this point I'm just waiting for a Ness main to show up.

 

[Wafles]

Any smart player can just be safe about it, use it when they're far away, and abuse the tail of pkt to just create an unpassable wall. The move is so fast, and has so little ending lag, that you can sit there and spam it, and it works really well.

Whatever though, if you guys can't see the issue with some of this stuff, then brawl+ is doomed to fail. (Not that it already isn't)

 

[SimaMatt]

Since PKT cannot be cancelled without running it into something if you get past it you can generally attack Ness while he is wide open.

At this point I'm just waiting for a Ness main to show up.

uhhh...what? Good luck getting past it in the first place. If someone spot dodges or air dodges it's piss easy to turn the pk thunder around so it hits him or hit the floor. Hell, I've canceled a whiffed pk thunder by hitting myself and REPEATING the process of pk thunder camping. If someone rolls towards you, just direct pk thunder to the floor and nair.

Also, I used to play Ness in normal brawl. I know how to control pk thunder.

 

[GHNeko]

Any smart player can just be safe about it, use it when they're far away, and abuse the tail of pkt to just create an unpassable wall. The move is so fast, and has so little ending lag, that you can sit there and spam it, and it works really well.

Whatever though, if you guys can't see the issue with some of this stuff, then brawl+ is doomed to fail. (Not that it already isn't)

What.

WHAT?

Any smart player can just swat PKT out of the way. The move is NOT fast. It had mediocre speed, and if you know how to cancel it out (PROTIP: It's not hard.) the ending lag is still long enough for you to punish Ness.

Spamming PKT is the sign of an amateur Ness, and if you cant get past it, that basically signifies that you are an amateur as well.

And LOL @ Brawl+ is doomed to fail.

If you seriously think PKT is what you claim it is, back it up with data/vids.

 

[Wafles]

Alright, apparently there's a few things you dont understand, so I'll clarify.

1. A smart ness will not just spam pkthunder, that's ******** and yes you will get punished for it.

2. A smart ness will find an opening some other way, hit you with virtually any attack, and follow it up with pk thunder camping. If the first one hits, you get 3 or 4 more for free because there's a bunch of hitstund on it.

3. If you're hit with pk thunder and you're in the air somewhat high up off the ground, you're ****ed because with the hitstun, you're not going to make it back to the ground and be able to shield it. You're going to get hit again until you manage to get a little bit lower.


Have you ever heard of playing safe? The person camping can do it too. Holy ****!

The point is, that this move creates a perfect camping scenario for one character, and I thought brawl+ was supposed to you know, dispose of the gay camping tactics that virtually define brawl, but I guess you guys would rather take the same way out as the people who defend those tactics in regular brawl. So are you hypocrits, or just stupid?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

^
That guy knows Ness.

Srsly.

But Ness players tend to use PKT for following up after a move, such as upsmash or upair.

 

[GHNeko]

PKT Camping is a weak tactic that can easily be nullified if you know what you're doing. :/

 

[goodoldganon]

Alright, apparently there's a few things you dont understand, so I'll clarify.

1. A smart ness will not just spam pkthunder, that's ******** and yes you will get punished for it.

2. A smart ness will find an opening some other way, hit you with virtually any attack, and follow it up with pk thunder camping. If the first one hits, you get 3 or 4 more for free because there's a bunch of hitstund on it.

3. If you're hit with pk thunder and you're in the air somewhat high up off the ground, you're ****ed because with the hitstun, you're not going to make it back to the ground and be able to shield it. You're going to get hit again until you manage to get a little bit lower.


Have you ever heard of playing safe? The person camping can do it too. Holy ****!

The point is, that this move creates a perfect camping scenario for one character, and I thought brawl+ was supposed to you know, dispose of the gay camping tactics that virtually define brawl, but I guess you guys would rather take the same way out as the people who defend those tactics in regular brawl. So are you hypocrits, or just stupid?

Ok Mr. Arrogant Poster who I have never heard from or seen in ANY significant Brawl+ discussion, let me break this down for you. First off, I'd be inclined to believe you if:

• You weren't so arrogant
• You had any proof besides hearsay

We have good Ness players here in the Workshop and in the Backroom and we have never, ever experienced this problem. Just because the PKT can be a decent follow up at times doesn't make the move over powered by any sense of the meaning.

Second, what the hell are you even talking about? Are you seriously saying PKT is an unbeatable, or nearly broken tactic in Brawl+? I am reading this right, correct? I'm sorry, but this is a special level of suck I have never seen before. What are you even doing during all this? Did you know you can air dodge in Brawl+? What about fastfall an airdodge?

I seriously have no idea what you are doing while you are playing that would make you POSSIBLY think Ness's PKT is too good. It's a projectile with mediocre priority, mediocre speed, doesn't lead into anything (cept tail swipes on itself), and an overall poor move.

So please, next time before you fly off the handle because no one agrees with your outrageous claims, please provide some actual proof with your feedback cause frankly I don't want to read it.

Also, we aren't removing camping from Brawl. We are just not making it the best option for every character. We have added punishment for your mistakes. There is no problem with camping unless it's unbeatable, and I laugh at the fact anyone thinks PKT is unbeatable.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

PKT Camping is a weak tactic that can easily be nullified if you know what you're doing. :/

That is true. :/

Good DI beats all

 

[Wafles]

Aw man, you're right I totally flew off the handle there. Did you see how arrogant and mean I was? Christ, I pointed out one possible flaw with brawl+ after I played a match or two at a tournament I went to this weekend. What was I thinking. I'm sorry man.

You're right. I'm definitely just a scrub, I'm pretty bad at this game. I wont bother you guys or try to contribute an opinion anymore.

 

[goodoldganon]

Aw man, you're right I totally flew off the handle there. Did you see how arrogant and mean I was? Christ, I pointed out one possible flaw with brawl+ after I played a match or two at a tournament I went to this weekend. What was I thinking. I'm sorry man.

You're right. I'm definitely just a scrub, I'm pretty bad at this game. I wont bother you guys or try to contribute an opinion anymore.

I found your problem. Before offering feedback why don't you play more then a match or two. And before you say anything about playing more, just don't. Play for a good solid week against good opponents.

 

[Wafles]

Nah, that's all right, you guys seem to just wanna do things your way. That's okay, have fun!

In all seriousness I dont even like brawl+, I used to play it to take a break from brawl, and I played it for quite a while, thought I'd try out some of the new additions or what not, and thought I'd bring this up, but if you guys don't wanna listen to an outside source (disregarding whatever arrogance there might be, that's just my personality), then thats your deal. Create the game you want, ignore those and pull excuses for those who object.

I'm outta here.

 

[goodoldganon]

All right then, so back on topic. Hopefully we should get a nightly build up here soon. That way this topic can be used for what it was meant to used for. Real, constructive feedback so we can improve the game and not some sort of safehouse from posting in the Plussery. Once we get a nightly builds set going I expect to see less posts that belong in the Plussery in this thread. Thanks guys.

 

[thesage]

Considering pkt juggling is useless against anybody with a projectile reflector/absorber and/or a fast nair and/or fastfalls it's hardly broken at all. I think it only really harms characters that have really low priority in the air or are really floaty and easy to juggle. DDD comes to mind.

Ness is probably one of the lesser characters in brawl+ so yea...

Most lvl 9 cpus aren't smart enough to get out of pkt juggling, but there are some that can... Forgot which ones since I don't play cpus anymore...

Pkt is basically used as a followup when you can't continue a combo anymore. The lag just makes unpunishible if you hit somebody with it. His recovery still sucks and his pkt camping game is meh at best.

 

[goodoldganon]

Glad to see a great ness player backing me up.

 

[SimaMatt]

Considering pkt juggling is useless against anybody with a projectile reflector/absorber and/or a fast nair and/or fastfalls it's hardly broken at all. I think it only really harms characters that have really low priority in the air or are really floaty and easy to juggle. DDD comes to mind.

Ness is probably one of the lesser characters in brawl+ so yea...

Most lvl 9 cpus aren't smart enough to get out of pkt juggling, but there are some that can... Forgot which ones since I don't play cpus anymore...

Pkt is basically used as a followup when you can't continue a combo anymore. The lag just makes unpunishible if you hit somebody with it. His recovery still sucks and his pkt camping game is meh at best.

Wow, finally someone who knows something about Ness. Thanks for the post. I'll rethink my position on pkt.

Sorry if that sounds like sarcasm, but I'm being honest. I'll trust sage's word over my own since he has more playtime with ness than I do with my ness who I pick just to spam pkt.

 

[JCaesar]

I think it only really harms characters that have really low priority in the air or are really floaty and easy to juggle. DDD comes to mind.

lolwut? DDD isn't floaty and he's got great aerial priority with his bair.

But yeah, spamming PKT isn't that tough to get through.

 

[thesage]

DDD fits the easy to juggle part.

Edit: gog, I'm not that good at all. lol.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Imo, Wolf is looking pretty good, but is still missing something. I have a few ideas for reasonable tweaks, if anyone is interested in my input.

 

[goodoldganon]

Imo, Wolf is looking pretty good, but is still missing something. I have a few ideas for reasonable tweaks, if anyone is interested in my input.

Lay it on me buddy.