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[Cytrs]

falcon is good, but has MANY major flaws. he's not the worst character in the game by any means, but he deserves a slight buff, imo. he basically has 1 approach (SH KoJ) and that's predictable and can be ruined by projectiles. his combos can be shut down with good di (thats common, though). his ground moves are either slow, have no priority, or utilt. falcon punch is extra situational, falcon dive is ultra-predictable and isn't even an attack towards the end, raptor boost can spike and might be used as an approach (tech chase ftw), but has bad priority and suicides. falcon kick is easy to predict (he screams "falcon kick") but has okay priority. dair can approach/ kill, nair can combo, uair can combo/ kill. falcon is still a good character, but should be in line for a li'l buff.

 

[shanus]

or you can use the very first hitbox of his uair which has a long reach, or his first hit nair FF to jab

Approaching with knees is not his only option, and by far one of the worst

Falcon has some incredibly strong combos, high speed, and pretty awesome tech chasing. He can't have a great approach as well, its a character weakness.

 

[Rudra]

falcon is good, but has MANY major flaws. he's not the worst character in the game by any means, but he deserves a slight buff, imo. he basically has 1 approach (SH KoJ) and that's predictable and can be ruined by projectiles. his combos can be shut down with good di (thats common, though). his ground moves are either slow, have no priority, or utilt. falcon punch is extra situational, falcon dive is ultra-predictable and isn't even an attack towards the end, raptor boost can spike and might be used as an approach (tech chase ftw), but has bad priority and suicides. falcon kick is easy to predict (he screams "falcon kick") but has okay priority. dair can approach/ kill, nair can combo, uair can combo/ kill. falcon is still a good character, but should be in line for a li'l buff.

And what would you propose exactly? Falcon's approaches may have bad priority, but thats why many Falcons rely on mindgaming their opponent into becoming vulnerable to a combo. Looking at Leaf's post about Priority, its definately something you cant easily fix, but maybe a slight increase of hitbox sizes on his Nair (as GHNeko mentioned) would help. (If he really, really, needed it, which he probably doesnt)

His Dair should also meteor at his nipples again too so that he can set up for tech chases and kills easier, but thats all I think he needs.

 

[Cytrs]

i dont care about the bad approach in particular, but he has a bad approach, bad priority, bad attack speed (on most kill moves), not very good specials, no projectiles/reflectors, and a bad recovery. maybe just increase the growth on falcon dive a little, or something else. i dont know, its not like it has to be a big buff, just something to help (like the little ike buff people want).

edit: Nipple spike FTW.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

Falcon's pretty much a monster in this game at times, I'm pretty sure he doesn't really need anything right now. Maybe somewhere down the line, but there are more things that could be addressed before that.

In my personal experience, Falcon is one of the better characters available right now. He plays similarly to how he did in Melee, and had many of the same weakness/strengths but maybe it's just all in the way he's played.

 

[cubaisdeath]

falcon is good, but has MANY major flaws. he's not the worst character in the game by any means, but he deserves a slight buff, imo. he basically has 1 approach (SH KoJ) and that's predictable and can be ruined by projectiles. his combos can be shut down with good di (thats common, though). his ground moves are either slow, have no priority, or utilt. falcon punch is extra situational, falcon dive is ultra-predictable and isn't even an attack towards the end, raptor boost can spike and might be used as an approach (tech chase ftw), but has bad priority and suicides. falcon kick is easy to predict (he screams "falcon kick") but has okay priority. dair can approach/ kill, nair can combo, uair can combo/ kill. falcon is still a good character, but should be in line for a li'l buff.

wow, you have no idea what you're talking about. you shouldn't have to approach with a knee, its got no range whatsoever. you should be approaching with shff uairs as well as shff nair to jab. half of his combos are DI proof as it is. ever hear of free parking? raptor boost is good for approach, but its better as a tech chase. you can't even suicide with it unless you don't catch yourself, but you should be ready to save yourself at any given time you use it near a ledge. if you saw how falcon was in 4.0 or a little earlier, you would understand why he is the way he is now. he doesn't deserve a buff, he is good as he is.


edit: his ground moves aren't that slow. they are faster than they are in melee. plus, fsmash AND usmash both combo into knee that can kill. don't forget about dash attack either. that move ***** and sets up for a knee perfectly. just learn the limitations of your character instead of asking for buffs, you'll get better that way

 

[GHNeko]

Falcon plays similar to Melee Falcon, yes. But really, his moveset works better with Melee's engine. Even if you port over an exact copy of Melee falcon, he's not going to play as well because of the Brawl+ engine/physics.

Which is why I suggest giving him a bit of disjointedness and catering his moveset toward Brawl+ would help out in which camping and defensive playstyles/game are more common spread.

Those are my thoughts. :V

 

[Plum]

Falcon had poor approaches in Melee as well. He has always had horrible priority because he has like no disjointed hitboxes. It's just something that he has to deal with when he chooses to only fight with his fists and legs instead of that gun clearly holstered on his side.

He had poor priority in Melee too, he just made it up with a great combo game and his speed. Right now I feel that his only problem is how easy he is to combo. Yeah, he is large, fairly heavy and a fast faller so he should be easy to combo but he definitely feels too easy. His grav is so high to maximize his character potential but it also makes him very susceptible to combos, to the extreme of him still feeling mediocre.

If you made a ratio as to how well a character can combo compared to how well they get combo'd Falcon would have a very close ratio, where as characters who are considered better have more distance between their combo game and their susceptibility to them.

 

[cubaisdeath]

its a double edged sword. look at snake? that man can combo, but he gets ***** by everyone as well. so does fox, falco, dk....the list goes on. every character can do zero to death, or even just regular **** combos on everyone given they DI a certain way and you follow up with the correct moves and spacing.

 

[GHNeko]

Falcon had poor approaches in Melee as well. He has always had horrible priority because he has like no disjointed hitboxes. It's just something that he has to deal with when he chooses to only fight with his fists and legs instead of that gun clearly holstered on his side.

He had poor priority in Melee too, he just made it up with a great combo game and his speed. Right now I feel that his only problem is how easy he is to combo. Yeah, he is large, fairly heavy and a fast faller so he should be easy to combo but he definitely feels too easy. His grav is so high to maximize his character potential but it also makes him very susceptible to combos, to the extreme of him still feeling mediocre.

If you made a ratio as to how well a character can combo compared to how well they get combo'd Falcon would have a very close ratio, where as characters who are considered better have more distance between their combo game and their susceptibility to them.

The thing with that is that in Melee, the issues with his priority didnt hinder him as much. There were way more aggressive characters and defensive/campy playstyles were almost null. Than there were less priority issues. There were less ways to recover and it was generally harder to recover.

That's not the case in Brawl+. Which is why I suggest to give Falcon something to help him succeed in Brawl+. Melee tools are nice and all, but Melee Tools dont get the job completely done against Brawl+ plumbing. Give him a Brawl+ pocket swiss army knife and he'll be perfectly fine. :V

 

[Plum]

The thing with that is that in Melee, the issues with his priority didnt hinder him as much. There were way more aggressive characters and defensive/campy playstyles were almost null. Than there were less priority issues. There were less ways to recover and it was generally harder to recover.

That's not the case in Brawl+. Which is why I suggest to give Falcon something to help him succeed in Brawl+. Melee tools are nice and all, but Melee Tools dont get the job completely done against Brawl+ plumbing. Give him a Brawl+ pocket swiss army knife and he'll be perfectly fine. :V

It also feels like there are more characters with crazy disjointedness than there were in Melee in Brawl.

That, and except Marth everyone else at the top levels were going at it with their limbs (maybe a laser ) as well. Brawl+ has more characters with some insane range when you have MK, Snake, Charizard, Olimar, G&W, and somebody like Link who can certainly hold his weight now all running around the metagame. Doesn't help Falcon that Zairs, some of if not the most disjointed hitboxes in the game, were made useful on stage.

Falcon's priority is really just a lack of disjointed hitboxes, and when there is so many of them throughout the game he really suffers without them. Other characters are in the same boat like Jigglypuff or Sonic in terms of priority but they don't get combo'd like Falcon.

A slight increase in select hitbox sizes could really help him. Nair and Uair would be the obvious choice, just to make his approach game a little safer (though certainly still punishable). The tricky part would be how to go about it though because of how the hitbox is universally increased.

 

[GHNeko]

I already mentioned giving his more common moves disjointed properties. :V

He'd still have an approaching weakness, but ****. If everyone is balanced, then falcon will really be screwed because he has the worst, if not, one of the worst priority movesets in the game. :V

 

[cubaisdeath]

as a fox main in melee, I can tell you how much of a pain it is, being able to dish out anything, but then get combo'd by every character in the game with ease, all because of a simple spacing error. its just part of the character. learn to overcome it. it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a projectiles, its not like you can't jump and airdodge over them. there are ways around it, don't worry

 

[Cytrs]

snake gets disjointed "wtf just happened" hitboxes (just saying), but i dont really want more priority/big hitboxes.

how about more grab range?

i usually don't mind projectiles, i just dont like falco's lasers (their too close together, imo).

 

[GHNeko]

as a fox main in melee, I can tell you how much of a pain it is, being able to dish out anything, but then get combo'd by every character in the game with ease, all because of a simple spacing error. its just part of the character. learn to overcome it. it doesn't matter if he doesn't have a projectiles, its not like you can't jump and airdodge over them. there are ways around it, don't worry

The issue is more severe in Brawl+ though. There are a plethora of characters that **** you now for a spacing error, where as in Melee only the top tiers had that potential. V:

There are less ways around it as well because everyone is getting the ability to be on your ***. That's what balance is.

snake gets disjointed "wtf just happened" hitboxes (just saying), but im not asking for those.

how about more grab range?

i usually don't mind projectiles, i just dont like falco's lasers (their too close together, imo).

Captain F is one of the character's that is getting a larger grab range IIRC.

EDIT: Currently it's impossible, but once we figure out grabs, it will be done.

 

[Cytrs]

that should help.

 

[cubaisdeath]

The issue is more severe in Brawl+ though. There are a plethora of characters that **** you now for a spacing error, where as in Melee only the top tiers had that potential. V:

its more severe on b+ only because of the immense amounts of hit stun and increased falling speeds of the characters. not only top tiers can combo, trust me, fox can get 02D combod by almost every character in melee.



its just part of the game, I've gotten used to it. in b+ I except to get combo'd if I get hit. the secret is just using proper DI to get out. there are very very very few combos that are completely impossible to DI, even in B+.

 

[proteininja]

I hope no one in the br is seriously considering buffing falcon. He is great as is.

My friend mains falcon, and has competed in several brawl and melee tourneys. If you play his falcon I PROMISE you will no longer think he needs a buff. So, just try to get better for now. Falcon is a fast character, and difficult to control, so don't expect to play him for a few months and be able to comment on his meta game.

Now, his aerial side b on the other hand doesn't need a buff or nerf. I would prefer it just made sense. It launches you half of fd after it

ME = confused.

 

[GHNeko]

its more severe on b+ only because of the immense amounts of hit stun and increased falling speeds of the characters. not only top tiers can combo, trust me, fox can get 02D combod by almost every character in melee.



its just part of the game, I've gotten used to it. in b+ I except to get combo'd if I get hit. the secret is just using proper DI to get out. there are very very very few combos that are completely impossible to DI, even in B+.

But in Melee, Fox had more tools than the other opponent.

If all the characters are balanced and can wreck falcon with combos, doesnt that make him a bit lower than them?

 

[_clinton]

I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't want Raptor Boost to go into free fall mode when it is used (I mean come on...it should work at least the same way Falcon Dive works IMO)

 

[Cytrs]

Im good with falcon and can usually win. but i feel that he isn't quite equal to all other characters (im not thinking 50:50 with everybody, that would be stupid. but matchups should average 50:50ish for all characters. i dunno his matchups, but i think he could have a slight buff).

edit: I agree with _clinton! (but probably too big a buff)

 

[GHNeko]

I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't want Raptor Boost to go into free fall mode when it is used (I mean come on...it should work at least the same way Falcon Dive works IMO)

It'd make it OP'd at the ledge imo. :V

 

[Arkaether]

Yeah, no-ff Raptor Boost would be way too broken. Ledge camping anyone?

 

[shanus]

edit: nevermind

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Heh, I may be one of the few in the boat but I want techrolls to have a tiny bit more start-up time.

IMO, tech chasing should be much more viable than it is now, it feels rather lax. Though of course not to the point of melee where you could literally wait to see the direction of the roll and THEN react to it.

 

[Cytrs]

falco feels kind of over powered to me.

a slightly bigger uair or/and the grab range should be good for CF, though.

 

[Kuga]

For falco,just a slow down in his Utilt,maybe 1.5x is good,intead of 2.0x.At High percents its almost a guaranted Uair.

 

[cubaisdeath]

IMO falco is the best in the game, but he is not even close to OP. I main MK and marth in B+, and I don't usually have too much of a problem with falco. I go even with one of my friends who mains falco, but if I gimp him its game over for him. just because he has the best approaching option, and amazing combos, doesn't mean he is OP. his combos are harder to follow up than say...falcons or something.

falco is definitely good, but there are characters not far behind him

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Falco has a hard time killing, his upB is among the worst in the game, and his combos aren't that simply to continue, unlike say Fox.

Fox is so much much muuch better than Falco. Fox also seems to lack any depth whatsoever which makes me think he needs a complete workover >_>...

 

[Cytrs]

his blaster shots are a teeney (lol) bit too close. i think the time between shots (after the initial shot) should give about four non-paralyzed frames. just a thought, though.

edit: if im not using kirby my friend will **** me with him. falco's a <b>BEAST</b>

edit: Falco can kill.

 

[cubaisdeath]

falco does have a hard time killing. you can't really rely on smashes unless you get them in a situation where reverse fsmash can hit...which is rare. dsmash is mainly used to relieve pressure, and usmash is to link combos. I find that most of my kills as falco, are either from dairs or from something that combo's into uair.


Fox isn't better, he is just faster...but he does lack depth. everything he does combos into everything he does, but thats how he was in melee too =)

 

[Nybb]

What about giving Falcon some kill power on his up-B, similar to in Smash64? It would give him more options in mid-air combos, and make opponents have to at least be slightly careful when edgeguarding him. A nipple spike/meteor like others have suggested could also be a good idea.

I don't know if increasing hitbox sizes would be a good idea or not...that seems like a pretty drastic change, and it seems to be a case of buffing weaknesses instead of buffing strengths. Perhaps slightly increasing u-air or n-air would be ok, but not both.

 

[cubaisdeath]

its not like they have to be super increased like snakes hitboxes. they just need that little bit extra to actually have some impact. up b does have killing power, you just have to use it right

 

[shanus]

how about you all wait for the epicness that in nipple spike, and then we'll reevaluate

 

[FrozenHobo]

i think falco is fine right now. some of his stuff seems a little OP, but not enough to warrant any editing.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Falco isnt OP but that utilt...he does have trouble killing tho. And is somewhat easy to combo and gimp. Having a bad recovery in + is a lot more significant than in vbrawl.

 

[Plum]

The thing is, Utilt isn't some instant *make combo happen* button that characters like Squirtle have.
And the speed is as fast as it is because it was impossible to actually follow up a Utilt if it was any slower iirc.

 

[cubaisdeath]

its hard enough to follow up utilts unless your opponent is at a really low percent anyways. its fine the way it is now. falco shouldn't be changed IMO. I think he is good the way he is

 

[Yingyay]

Falco is crazy good. He can create situations where he can easily kill.
-SHDL approach or camp them.

The rest come after ^^^^.

 

[GHNeko]

Falco is crazy good. He can create situations where he can easily kill.
-SHDL approach or camp them.

The rest come after ^^^^.

Platforms > SHDL.

Also, most dashes lower the hitbox of most characters low enough so that the top laser doesnt even hit, and you can worry about the second laser. :V