Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[FrozenHobo]

Yes. Two posts above you have shown fairly good ideas on the matter. It's not going to be a perfect replica of Mewtwo in Melee, but close enough so he's enjoyable for the character he is. (Sigh, I might need to make a thread about Mewtwo so this thread doesn't get so much spam).

actually, CK's idea for disable would also hit you with the deku nut (i think PW said you can't edit item properties).

with tim, we're both thinking pretty much the same thing for disable, but as far as confusion, its not the same thing to have it stun as flip.

also, shield break for disable would be an instant kill on jigglypuff.

 

[Wavedash Master]

actually, CK's idea for disable would also hit you with the deku nut (i think PW said you can't edit item properties).

with tim, we're both thinking pretty much the same thing for disable, but as far as confusion, its not the same thing to have it stun as flip.

also, shield break for disable would be an instant kill on jigglypuff.

You can edit moves to have item effects however. I'm thinking for disable to have a tiny stream of hitboxes that do 0 damage but have a shield break effect (the shield break effect would need to be shorterned so the move isn't broken of course). Look at the fireball wave Phantom Wings created when he made Phoenix Mario. Apparently, he just stacked several hitboxes together to make this work.

Anyways, lets stop the discussion here so this thread isn't filled up with Mewtwo stuff. I plan to make a thread on the matter (probably tomorrow) and we can discuss it from there. That way, we can get the full fruit of this project and hope this will become something more than a dream character.

 

[Roxas215]

Omg enough with mewtwo. He has nothing to do with nightly builds. If u want to believe he will be made then by all means go for it. Reality is it's a very slim chance there will ever be a quailty mewtwo.


Anyway i never ask for changes(Well except for a faster ff for peach and her fsmash being in a order instead of being random but that always got overlooked that i stopped bothering with it) Also since zss isn't my main i just left this alone, However talking in the chat to my surprise alot of people agreed with me. I think zss should have a shorter sh. Things like dash attack to sh fair should work but her sh is too high that it misses. Like is said i don't main zss(she my secondary. Or third?? Lol don't know if zss or zard is better for me) so my opinion probably don't matter. Just putting it out their!

 

[Nybb]

Posting like a Ness main

So in conclusion: A balanced character with a useless move is not hurting the balance of the game and there is no reason to risk balance and waste time just to provide more options for a character that already has all the options he/she needed in the first place. There can be exceptions and times where there is enough support to change a "useless" move, but these should be few and far between.

This. It just takes unnecessary effort and requires even more balancing. I personally think that B+ is very close to being finished character balance-wise. It really is hard to pick out a bad character, and it is getting more and more difficult to pick out top characters. A couple more small changes would be nice, but I wouldn't complain if the project was declared the final version tomorrow.

This is obviously ignoring things like getting rid of the freezes and fixing the camera codes.

Explain why then. We can trade moves that look similar to Mewtwo's original moveset in Melee using SA (For example, ZSS's downsmash is very similar to Mewtwo's downsmash). Once model importing is possible, we'll be able to get the full look of Mewtwo. The hitbox mod and frame speed mod could be further used to adjust his moves. Come on, think about this idea for a little bit first before shutting it down.

I'm not sure that you have thought about the 3D modelling aspect very much ... you're not just going to import a "model" of Mewtwo, then tell it to just have all these foreign moves and expect it to work. Getting the model to animate and behave in a natural-looking way is going to take a HUGE amount of time and effort. It would be incredible if it actually got done, but I am pretty sceptical at this stage, and I think it is a very long way off at best.

 

[ZitchX]

Uhhh...

Zelda's Neutral A jab should plant a flow onto their head... *from Balanced brawl*

reasoning... this move... has no apparent use.... any time you use it... There was a better option in that situation.

Samus's Grab game needs a buff... i always land a grab... but there really is no grab to go to... dthrow for a juggle but the juggles are hard to connect....

im thinking

Dthrow damage buff? and Knock back decrease?
or Grab Pummel damage Increase?
Bthrow knock back increase?
something...

maybe make Upsmash connect thoroughly more often?

That move has priority... but really never try to do this move do ya?

also.. samus... Down B needs something buffed...

Maybe a knock back angle buff?
i've hit with this move and it doesnt help me much...

more along the lines of a spike? angle 280? well downwards infront of the opponent.

Sonic's Up b is really good but it needs more gimping properties... maybe a semi spike? 280... or soemthing...

 

[Me_Aludes]

Samus's Grab game needs a buff... i always land a grab... but there really is no grab to go to... dthrow for a juggle but the juggles are hard to connect....

im thinking

Dthrow damage buff? and Knock back decrease?
or Grab Pummel damage Increase?
Bthrow knock back increase?
something...

This. Samus has a silly laggy grab, and the worst grab game. Throws lead into... nothing.
A buff would be really nice.

 

[Sterowent]

Samus has a bad grab game because the rest of her options are great.
if she had a good grab, her def options would be crazy strong, since she can wall with projectiles and zair.
if she had good throws, it wouldn't generally matter because of her bad grab. actually, if you gave her decent options out of throws, maybe her bad grab might balance that out. well, i'd support that then.

About PSA: now, this could easily go overboard. players would have the ability to edit movesets! people are attracted to drastic changes! the lesser problem is that some of these ideas aren't bad. the greater problem, though, comes in our community. Brawl+ is built on changes akin to PSA, but through physics. And it's great. Game's major fun, we'll continue to enjoy it and watch it grow. The problem is in our conservative nature, many of us wanting to avoid any heavy change in fear of their repercussions. Yet, as said, b+ is made directly from drastic change, based in tradition of course (previous smash) but still heavy alterations.

With this in mind, PSA should be part of the Brawl+ changing mindset, in its infrastructure (which is already happening) and in its character/game changes, as long as they meet previous smash traditions or are of that nature. If a Good Idea requires PSA and a moveset change, i hope people don't go all 'brawl don't need no hacks' mindset around here.

saw a few pages back people were all 'this is how it was Meant to be!' and, while that may be true to an extent, shying away from change now is a bit ridiculous. geez, it's really early in michigan right now...

 

[CountKaiser]

Has anyone noticed that the custom css may be causing freezes?

There's a freeze where after a victory screen, it may just pause indefinitely. Magmarfire in the irc mentioned that when he took out the CSS, it stopped doing that.

 

[RedyBz]

Has anyone noticed that the custom css may be causing freezes?

There's a freeze where after a victory screen, it may just pause indefinitely. Magmarfire in the irc mentioned that when he took out the CSS, it stopped doing that.

Yep i noticed it as well. Kinda glad to hear this that this isn't only happening to me. I thought it was my Wii started to be gay.

 

[jalued]

do we have a move that does an effect similar to confusion when it forces a midair tumble? if you're expecting it to be done even... within a year... then you're probably going to be disappointed. as far as disable, you would need a short range moving hitbox that forces a stun animation, but only if the two characters are facing each other (which may or may not be a variable in brawl). on top of that you need to actually edit the animations to do all of this stuff, which in itself will be harder than making the edited model. what you're probably going to come up with is a rickety glitchfest wannabe mewtwo that won't meet half the communities expectations.


there? was i friendly enough? god forbid somebody have a negative comment on your idea! if someone doesn't agree with you then just tell them to gtfo, if that it?

but surely he doesnt need all the same moves as melee, if his confusion is impossible, why not give him swift (using stars from the star rod) or some other move related to him (psychic would be epic!!) mewtwo's confusion was useless anyway lol

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Uhhh...

Zelda's Neutral A jab should plant a flow onto their head... *from Balanced brawl*

reasoning... this move... has no apparent use.... any time you use it... There was a better option in that situation.

It already had one unique advantage in that the wind down is only 8 frames. The hitbox size and behavior though, was laughable compared to the animation of it so that was addressed. The move as it is now is safe to throw out if you have the frames to use it, and can lead into follow ups before it starts sending them into tumble. It's quite useful now despite people still overlooking it.

I also vouch for Samus's throws being buffed somewhat. Her grab itself is so bad that she could at least use a couple decent throws, no question.

 

[Revven]

Anyway i never ask for changes(Well except for a faster ff for peach and her fsmash being in a order instead of being random but that always got overlooked that i stopped bothering with it) Also since zss isn't my main i just left this alone, However talking in the chat to my surprise alot of people agreed with me. I think zss should have a shorter sh. Things like dash attack to sh fair should work but her sh is too high that it misses. Like is said i don't main zss(she my secondary. Or third?? Lol don't know if zss or zard is better for me) so my opinion probably don't matter. Just putting it out their!

We've delved into it before and people feel that ZSS having a high SH is part of her character, taking that away and you now just have a spacie like ZSS. It takes a bit more 'skill' to actually make use of her higher short hop, you know, with having to FF her Bair if you want to hit people that are low to the ground. Plus, there are actually people who like her higher SH. (See: Yeroc)

It's been discussed, it was really early on when we first started doing character specific grav, fallspeeds, and short hop heights. And even though it was early on, there were still people who didn't like the thought of making it shorter for the sake of making her on level with spacies simply because she feels like she should have a shorter SH. But having a higher one is part of her character, it's what makes her different and adds a pinch of taking time to learn her.

 

[[TSON]]

Uhhh...

Zelda's Neutral A jab should plant a flow onto their head... *from Balanced brawl*

reasoning... this move... has no apparent use.... any time you use it... There was a better option in that situation.

I dunno... It's really useful in tight situations, especially in Yoshi matchups, already.

 

[CloneHat]

Samus's throws should be buffed, but only slightly. They should not be reliably good moves.

Other characters have good grabs, but they don't have zair.

 

[Red-Blue]

Zelda's Neutral A should grow a plant on the opponent's head, like Lip's Rod.

 

[proteininja]

Zelda's Neutral A should grow a plant on the opponent's head, like Lip's Rod.

Why? Do you have a good reason?

 

[JCaesar]

I dunno, I find it pretty easy to land grabs with Samus. Pretty much any shielded missile is a free grab as long as you're not predictable with it.

Of course that will change completely when we add reflecting powershields.

 

[Alphatron]

I'm thinking Zelda's standing grab needs to be sped up just a smidge so that it's at least faster than the tether users.

 

[ZitchX]

Samus Grab Game needs the buff IMO

and Zelda's neutral A should plant a flower. IDK why tho but it should :D

also.... i was wondering... Is her fast fall still a little too slow? i tried a ff spiking and i noticed i missed completely unlike on brawl...
ill look into it

 

[KOkingpin]

im a samus main and I dont think Samus needs her grab buffed. Its pretty fast and doesnt have alot of lag on it (see ZSS) Someone already said it that if you hit a shield with a missile its pretty much a free grab anyway plus she has the Zair which is already amazing. She has a nice air game and a good ground game with her jabs and tilts and her FSmash. Now if you could make Up Smash link better that would be nice, or make the first hit box able to hit a squirtle, that would be pretty beefy.

 

[Alphatron]

UpSmash links fine already.

 

[Magus420]

Zelda's jab is already really good now that the linking hits actually link into the final hit. It also has a decent increase in hitbox size and the extra point of damage on the last hit bumps it into the next shieldstun group. Why do people think this is a bad attack? o_O

 

[GHNeko]

Because no one likes to play past first impressions and really learn how to use a changed move before giving feedback anymore. lmao.

So yea, about that glitchy CSS that's been driving me up the wall with freezes...

 

[FrozenHobo]

do we know why its freezing? should we try another CSS?

 

[GHNeko]

No clue. I started getting the freezes in 7-20 and 7-21

 

[timothyung]

But I haven't come into any CSS freezes so far... It shouldn't only be the problem of the code. There should be something behind it...like CSPs, music, or the save data. Or it's the file patch code. You see, 7-20 and 7-21 have the newest file patch code, and you start having problems.

 

[GHNeko]

I have yet to start using music on the SD card because I play off an external, so I use music of a moddified ISO. My textures are teh same as prior to, and I do get to the CSS on occasion. Hell, I was able to play offline friendlies for about 1-2 hours with only 2 CSS freezes. <_>

 

[FrozenHobo]

i don't have CSPs/music and i still get freezes.

 

[Roxas215]

We've delved into it before and people feel that ZSS having a high SH is part of her character, taking that away and you now just have a spacie like ZSS. It takes a bit more 'skill' to actually make use of her higher short hop, you know, with having to FF her Bair if you want to hit people that are low to the ground. Plus, there are actually people who like her higher SH. (See: Yeroc)

It's been discussed, it was really early on when we first started doing character specific grav, fallspeeds, and short hop heights. And even though it was early on, there were still people who didn't like the thought of making it shorter for the sake of making her on level with spacies simply because she feels like she should have a shorter SH. But having a higher one is part of her character, it's what makes her different and adds a pinch of taking time to learn her.

Understandable. Never thought about the comparison to the spacies!

The css is causing nothing but trouble. Messing up replays/freezes. Just take the **** thing out.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Understandable. Never thought about the comparison to the spacies!

The css is causing nothing but trouble. Messing up replays/freezes. Just take the **** thing out.

thats the SSS. CSS is character select screen.

edit: and o far the only problems i've had with the SSS are the pictures/names on the replay screen being weird. the replays themselves are fine.

 

[Demacrez]

Speaking of Samus, wouldn't it be a good for grins and giggles? Having a burn effect when Samus uses F-Smash. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Plum]

thats the SSS. CSS is character select screen.

edit: and o far the only problems i've had with the SSS are the pictures/names on the replay screen being weird. the replays themselves are fine.

It does mess with the replay area in game though doesn't it?

I just backed up my saves when it was first mentioned it would mess up with old replays, so I never had the problem myself.
But iirc it freezes when you try to scroll through old replays before this build because it has "different" stages. You would just have to back up your old saves (assuming you want them still) and remove them from the SD card.

 

[CountKaiser]

Why are Samus' throws being buffed?

Or rather, why is the idea for better throws for her being thrown around?

Not everyone needs good throws, no matter how bad their grab is. Look at G&W. He has one useful throw, and 3 situational ones, and he still does fine.

 

[CloneHat]

He has a normal grab, doesn't he?

Samus has three useless throws, one situational one, and a terrible grab.

She doesn't have to have good throws, just better ones would be nice.

 

[CountKaiser]

G&W has a terrible grab, it may be one of the worst in the game. At least Samus has a ranged grab.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Samus can't grab out of the air. Given the relative ease of powershielding slow projectiles like missiles it's actually rather easy to defeat that grab setup.

Samus may have a ranged grab, but its inability to grab out of the air, slow startup, and punishable lag make it high risk, low reward. She could use at least a couple decent throw mixups that all don't lead to a dead situation.

 

[stingers]

lrn2setup

but her throws still suck

make her dthrow link to aerials or something. idk.

actually her uthrow is the worst throw in the game, make that kill.

 

[JCaesar]

I have yet to start using music on the SD card because I play off an external, so I use music of a moddified ISO. My textures are teh same as prior to, and I do get to the CSS on occasion. Hell, I was able to play offline friendlies for about 1-2 hours with only 2 CSS freezes. <_>

I haven't gotten any freezes with the new set, and I've played it quite a bit, even ran a tourney with it. I have a ton of texture/stage hacks and music hacks.

What's weird: Sage has been having the freezing problems with the latest set, and the problems where 75m comes up on random. He has no texture or music hacks. I loaded up the latest nightly from my SD card on his Wii, and he was having the same problems. The problems which I haven't had at all on my (extensively texture/music-hacked) Wii.

w ... t ... f ?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I agree with Samus getting a slightly buffed throw game. As it stands, going for her grabs is almost disrespectful. I've had Jiggs and Snakes jump and punish with rest/C4 on reaction to that grab.

I don't believe Zelda needs a better jab though. Its already good as is for the range it has. I'm not totally sure about speeding up her grab either.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's jab is fine now. Zelda's grab will be fine after her throws are revamped for the next build. Her grab does have above average range at least and her pivot grab is also good.