Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Skip2MaLoo]

fsmash = good edge guard for ness.

 

[_clinton]

So what? So is Lucas's

You missed my point...I'm talking about general limits...Ness and Lucas are the only characters who have a reflector that is ground only...

Are you saying that it should come out as fast as fox and falco's?

How do you get that from me when I bring up "7 frames" faster below?

Well it also counts as one of his KO moves so you gotta factor that in

I am...that is why I'm comparing it to Lucas' ATM

21 frames is above human reaction time by far...I mean it is one of the slowest Fsmashes in vBrawl...

Ness and Lucas are different so why make them similar? Ness does more damage and kills earlier I beleve

By 4% if tipped right now...the next part of his bat (his bat has 4 parts to its hitbox) has about a 10% difference from Lucas'

However, here is a rec. if you want to go with power...

The tip is close to Marth's Fsmash tip in power...
The 2nd part is Ness' normal area...
The 3rd and 4th parts are normal (they have poor power pretty much anyway)

fsmash = good edge guard for ness.

I factor into that being so because of being able to kill with 4 of his air moves in some shape or form in vBrawl

And for the rest of your ideas, frame 3 is too fast, fox's shine only reflects, Ness's Psimagnet gives him health. Sure make it a bit faster but not that fast. I do like the other ideas you had though.

Fox's shine is also one of his gimp options...the wind from Ness' Magnet doesn't even come into play at around frame 40 or so (I'm not 100% sure on that...I'd have to double check)

Plus health from Magnet doesn't even go past 30%...and Ness' recovery rate is only 1.5x normally, which really only recovers more than 10% from a few things...here is a list...

Mario=8
Luigi=10
Peach=29
Bowser=13+ (4 shots)
Yoshi=7
Zelda=13-26
Samus=5-30
Zamus1=7-10
Zamus2=18-25
Pit=8-18
IC=29(x2 maybe)
ROB=8-15
Kirby=8
D3=8
Waddle Doo=44
Fox=4
Fox's throws=10-13
Falco=5
Falco's throws=10-13
Wolf=8
Pikachu1=10 or 15
Pikachu2=16
Charizard=16+ (5 shots)
Lucario1=9-21 (if Lucario is at 0 power)
Lucario2=9-12 (if Lucario is at 0 power)
Ness=7,3,13, 15-30
Lucas=5,7-14,16, 16-30

BTW please note that Brawl's system effects the recovery (so a weakened Mario Fireball will only restore like 4% or so)

 

[Almas]

Serious face.

Posts after this which are not a comment/contribution to on-topic discussion will be met by a spam infraction.

This includes posts commenting on this post, and posts made with a vague comment put in despite being largely off topic.

 

[slikvik]

Peachs toad should have less cooldown when the spores are released. A lot of the time there is no other option but to use it while recovering, but I usually end up dying because it takes so long to recover combined with the increased fall speed

 

[HeroPenguin]

5-13 Impressions:

Link feels solid. I'm landing his complete upsmash fairly consistently (I still need to get some human competition in here to see in further detail) and his upB speed boost is superfantastic. I haven't experienced any missing hitboxes like some people have reported, so I'm not sure what that's about. His aerial upB feels a bit wimpy, but that may be by design. His physics seem good to me, but he may be falling a TINY TINY TINY bit fast after his jump apex. That may just be me used to more floatiness, but it still seems a little fast. Maybe .05 fast? Less? Good shot, at any rate.

One random note: I was playing a round against G&W, and I hit him with the boomerang and instead of getting hit back like every other time before and since, he got launched TOWARDS me. IIRC, this happened near the end of its up-angled smash trajectory, while he was jumping in. Does anyone know why that happened? I think it was fantastic, but I couldn't duplicate it afterwards.

 

[camelot]

Here's an idea for Ness's bat.

What if the knockback was the same with every part of the bat? The damage could be kept how it is, though (closer to tip = more damage).

 

[Sterowent]

One random note: I was playing a round against G&W, and I hit him with the boomerang and instead of getting hit back like every other time before and since, he got launched TOWARDS me. IIRC, this happened near the end of its up-angled smash trajectory, while he was jumping in. Does anyone know why that happened? I think it was fantastic, but I couldn't duplicate it afterwards.

+1curiosity.

also, kirby: i do like the nair, since it varies up (kirby needs dis!) his kill game, and i don't expect the fsmash to feel as bad as i know my heart will rage it to be. it's a nice tradeoff.

because of this, though, he lost a small bit of depth, very small. he could use nair canceled into the ground to land other moves, often fsmash. this felt cool. thought you'd like to be informed.

alsox2: i've been wondering if it's possible to speed up stone onground as well as the brick detransformation onground. i haven't thought this heavily through, but i do really want to see something done with stone simply because of how cool it actually is, but how useless it becomes at higher lvl play, especially onstage. the move has built in heavy armor, and wicked velocity as well as moderate kill power, but it's difficult to land due to overall lagginess. easy grab or follow up on kirby when it hits the ground.

i'm not saying every move should be good, but interesting moves should be an exception, even if something has to be nerfed to make em cool. they bring more to the table than bland killers or gtfo moves can in terms of either style points, physics abuse, or general mechanics exploitation, which in turn leads to cooler, more varied play.

beast of an opinion, i know. but, while balancing the combo system is awesome, i'd like to see more of the three mentioned tools. they not only add depth to characters but to gameplay too.

 

[Zean]

Peachs toad should have less cooldown when the spores are released. A lot of the time there is no other option but to use it while recovering, but I usually end up dying because it takes so long to recover combined with the increased fall speed

i agree with that, a little speed up would make toad more usable

 

[Konflyk]

I like the Nightly Builds and all the work you guys put forth to trying to make B+ the best it can be, however I do have a few concerns with this build entirely and it's not an attack on anyones work or anything. First, I like B+ I think the plussery gravity, speed, hitstun, etc. is fine as is which should just be what you guys work off, once again not to say anything bad I could just play the Plussery and not complain, but one thing I've noticed from the start when I first used Kupo's build was B button lag which tends to be annoying I main Pit, can't wingdash anymore, and a few other characters I have trouble using certain moves which tends to be a problem in my gameplay but I also play with other people who notice the same things. Aside the button lag and input lag the game is fine and I want you guys to keep improving and making the game better, thats my 2 cents though. Second the characters and the mods are great it balanced out characters who couldn't kill in regular brawl I prefer B+ it's a faster pace more fun game and I want more an better builds to come out, so I figured I'd share my opinion on the button lag at least other than that I can play the game.

 

[GPDP]

I like the Nightly Builds and all the work you guys put forth to trying to make B+ the best it can be, however I do have a few concerns with this build entirely and it's not an attack on anyones work or anything. First, I like B+ I think the plussery gravity, speed, hitstun, etc. is fine as is which should just be what you guys work off, once again not to say anything bad I could just play the Plussery and not complain, but one thing I've noticed from the start when I first used Kupo's build was B button lag which tends to be annoying I main Pit, can't wingdash anymore, and a few other characters I have trouble using certain moves which tends to be a problem in my gameplay but I also play with other people who notice the same things. Aside the button lag and input lag the game is fine and I want you guys to keep improving and making the game better, thats my 2 cents though. Second the characters and the mods are great it balanced out characters who couldn't kill in regular brawl I prefer B+ it's a faster pace more fun game and I want more an better builds to come out, so I figured I'd share my opinion on the button lag at least other than that I can play the game.

There's no "button lag". I think your problem is that you're playing with 0 buffer, which you can change by setting your handicap higher. 0 handicap = 0 buffer, 100 handicap = 10 buffer (which is the vBrawl default).

 

[Sterowent]

adding on to that, there are a lot of techniques from brawl that seem impossible at first but with the high enough buffer work again. ganonstomp as a good example. it's possible at 0 buffer, but...it's basically so frame perfect you'd never be able to do it like that.

but at 10 buffer (100% handicap and up), it's much easier to do again. this is the case for a lot of frame-perfect/very frame tight techniques.

 

[GPDP]

Hell, I can do it quite easily at 5 buffer.

 

[GHNeko]

I can do it at 0 buffer.

Over 9000 times.

What now ganon users.

:|

 

[cubaisdeath]

yeah, I don't have any problem doing it with 0 handicap. I just use up on the control stick to jump

 

[Nybb]

So I'm using the newest build (5-13), and Lucario, after using an up-B that ends on the ground, cannot do another up-B until he jumps again.

That is, if you do an up-B on the ground and just go sideways (staying on the ground the whole time), or if you do an up-B in the air and hit the ground in the middle of it, he can't do another up-B from the ground.

Is this a bug or a feature? It seems like a very odd feature, and I haven't seen it mentioned since I've been keeping track of this thread, so I just figured I would point it out.

 

[cubaisdeath]

sounds to me like the sonic/snake up b glitch. interesting that it works with lucario already being on stage...hmm

 

[HeroPenguin]

So I'm using the newest build (5-13), and Lucario, after using an up-B that ends on the ground, cannot do another up-B until he jumps again.

That is, if you do an up-B on the ground and just go sideways (staying on the ground the whole time), or if you do an up-B in the air and hit the ground in the middle of it, he can't do another up-B from the ground.

Is this a bug or a feature? It seems like a very odd feature, and I haven't seen it mentioned since I've been keeping track of this thread, so I just figured I would point it out.

I noticed this bug last week, and when I mentioned it, I was informed that this is a side effect of some of its other properties, such as wall clinging. There are coders looking into a way to fix the bug, but for now, the easiest way to refresh upB is to either shorthop instant dair (fastest way I know of to manually reset it) or get hit. Alternately, just ignore it and play normally, because chances are, your best use of upB is to pursue in the air, which will take care of the problem quickly enough.

 

[Samuelson]

So I'm using the newest build (5-13), and Lucario, after using an up-B that ends on the ground, cannot do another up-B until he jumps again.

It's like that in normal brawl also but only if you have tap jump OFF iirc.

 

[cubaisdeath]

wtf really? thats hella stupid.


sup samuelson LOL

 

[GHNeko]

Another reason why Tap Jump > Tap Jump Off.

<3 Smash Roots sooonn

 

[Samuelson]

Hah

What up DeathCabForCuba :D

 

[Sterowent]

yeah, i started learning how to do tap jumping after that new luc upB.

i mean, it was too sexy.

 

[Me_Aludes]

.Keeping it in gives the person recovering additional help for no reason. Getting knocked off the stage is supposed to be scary and surviving it back is what makes smash exciting.
So you want to force people to jump out for the gimp...like..force them? It seems unfair to me how easy it is to recover in this game due to the ledges being so stupid. If you get knocked off the stage, find a way to recover without the ledge grabbing you. (my second to last paragraph also applies here as well
Arbitrarily challenging and arbitrarily limiting. Why do you assume that it is the opponents fault for getting hit? I know we don't have CCing, but in melee, a form of edge guarding would be to purposely get hit in order to edge guard. Should he be punished for it? There are still times where you can purposely get hit in brawl+ and still get the edge guard so why should a move act differently when you hit someone? It makes no sense and makes the game inconsistent.

Not arbitrary when it's made for a purpose: making edgeguarding skillful.
Also, the part of "making the game inconsistent" doesn't make sense. A lot of moves act differently when you hit someone, and that applies to almost any fighter.

Also, you can even auto sweet spot when you hit people below you as well. So for example if you go to spike samus or something and she uses her up b at a point where she would miss the sweet spot, she auto sweet spots anyway and you are unprepared for it and most likely die. Or another example would be if you are somehow below the stage with a marth or someone and they up b and hit you, you have no chance to walljump tech and hit them back because they have auto sweet spotted to lagless ledges. We all obviously know that this is a glitch in how the ledges are supposed to act so we need to keep the ledges acting like an ledges

If they are playing more intelligently than you and they react to your moves, you are punished. That's what a fighting game is about.

Because they failed? Close isn't good enough. Second place is the 1st loser. Be more careful next time and be more skilled at recovering.

That goes both ways, seriously.

No. We should not accept game mechanics that play favorites and game mechanics programmed so terribly to get in the way of the game. I am fighting the player...not the game so the only person forcing me to gimp them is the player...not the game. It is my choice how I decided to edge guard and there is nothing wrong with sitting on the ledge and punishing from there because you messed up on sweet spotting. Did you know that if you are skillful enough to sweet spot the ledge without the ledge grabbing you, side b auto sweetspotting or any of this nonsense we are talking about, then sitting on the ledge to punish does nothing? Did you know that skillful sweet spotting is a way to get the edge guarder off the ledge and for you, the player, to force a riskier edge guarding gimp? This is how it is supposed to be.
Sweet spotting and most importantly...recovering is a skill. It is not taken for granted and its not something that is based on arbitrary rules such as auto sweet spotting when hitting something and it must be fixed

Man... EVERY single rule in a game is arbitrary. The only thing that matters is if it helps the game more than it hurts and if it's a balanced rule.

You say that the game should not force you and you should decide how to edgeguard by your own. But the game IS already limiting you. The physics of the game are limiting you, the propierties of the attacks are limiting you, the frames of invencibility on the ledge are limiting you. It's not like: oh, I'm losing my freedom because they can sweetspot easier. That makes that argument invalid.

For now, and IMHO, it has been proved to be a balanced feature, so I would let it as it is.

 

[CloneHat]

If you wanted to fight the player without limitations, that is impossible. Putting aside that every game and the real world has rules, if a player goes for the ledge, you simply edgehog. Edgeguarding, minus legeteching, is the same as it has been, with a slightly larger ledge grab range.

 

[jalued]

Here's an idea for Ness's bat.

What if the knockback was the same with every part of the bat? The damage could be kept how it is, though (closer to tip = more damage).

2 things that ness' bat needs

1) for the tip to have a bit more knoackback (i mean omg its hard to space )
2) this is the important bit, bring back the old sound for most of the bat, and keep the homerun sound for JUST the tip

its not right that u get the homerun sound and it doesnt kill. so if u make the homerun sound only on the most powerful hit of his fsmash, much more satisfying to hear the sound, cause u know that they are probably dead (depending on the % ofc)

 

[jalued]

No, I play Brawl+, but combos are way harder to do now, consistently, at least. In Version 3.3, for example, Captain Falcon, Falco, and many others could combo very well, and consistently. Meh, maybe "easier" wasn't the right word. I will edit my post.

yeah but i dont feel that brawl+should be about easy combos and 0-deaths. the best part about brawl+ atm is how the opponent (with good DI) can generally get out of any combos they wish, unless the comboer can mindgame their DI, which tbh just makes the game harder and more fun, as it should be. u dont want to make it easier to combo, cause u should have to work for it, not just be handed a combo on a plate (falcon dthrow to fair rings a bell)

oh plus there is the whole option of teching, opening up techchasing (which tbh i havnt actually gotten the hang of yet), but yeah,it shouldnt be easy to combo. with auto l cancel in it does feel easier, it should have other obsticals to overcome so as to manage a 0-death

 

[jalued]

haha OMG,mate just thought of best thing ever, is it possible for the homerun sound to happen if his with the bat and then get KOed off stage? (the one from wii sports) io know its only cosmetic..but still, if falcon can get YES! on the knee, or jiggs gets flame on her downB, then ness should get a nice sound

 

[bajisci]

TRIPLE post for great justice

Is it true lucario's up b works infinitely on the ground with tap jump on? i usually have it off but can play with it on with no problem if it means i can use lucarios up b to navigate on the ground -_-

 

[Rudra]

So after a week of not playing Brawl+, I finally had a chance to play 4.1. It's amazing! I havent had any practice against humans with it (yet) but I've ried out a couple of changes on the characters I play as.

Falco: I IMMEDIATELY fell in love with his new Shine! I barely ever used it since VBrawl just because of how useless it was outside of tripping and how punishable it could be upon returning. Now that the move can be used to start combos, enhance them, and potentially lead into a kill move, (usually Bair, though perhaps if they DI incorrectly or AD I can FSmash/USmash them?) and has been speed up upon returning to Falco, I've become quite fond of it. This change really enhanced his combo game and really made his Shine a nifty tool: something every Spacie's Shine should be. PLEASE, PLEASE KEEP THIS! His bread has never been fresher!

Lucario: Lucario has been awesome since his UpB changes. He's a lot like Sheik, being able to combo and rack up damage well (though she does it slightly better), and able to go offstage and gimp his foes (Lucario arguably does this better now)...and with his Aura boost, he can easily go from a gimping machine to a killer! =D Since his Double Team has lost some of its end lag, I've actually decided to try to incorporate it into my game more. I was usually too afraid to because of how easily punishable it was when whiffed. My only problem with DT now though, is that the vanish>attacking part is still shieldable in quite a few instances, so it may need a speed up there to actually be a better counter.

Oh, and I also believe that his Ftilt should have a speedup, as I've found it to be Lucario's GTFO move, especially against non disjointed aerialists since it can be angled while his Dtilt is better at edgeguarding and poping up opponents for followups (his jabs are only good OoS imo, and they're still quite slow) . His Ftilt however, has a bit less range than DTilt (from what Ive seen at least), and since DTilt has such properties, there's little reason to use Ftilt aside from getting your opponent off of you quickly which is something it only does an "okay" job at. I'll play a bit more with him to keep testing it though.

PT (Ivysaur): The UpB change isnt as bad as lots of people made it out to be. Interestingly enough, it makes Vine Whip its own tool to edguard with thanks to the threat of a stage spike. It looks like Ivy's going to be tougher to edgeguard now that she has a fast Razor Leaf, Dair Stalling, and Multi-Vine Whip to take care of edgeguarders.

I should be getting some friends over to play soon. I'll edit this if I find something else.

 

[bajisci]

I just discovered that wario can chaingrab bowser to 50% with downthrow, unfortunately i dont have another human to test if this is a true chaingrab but i figured id throw it out there. Sorry if its been mentioned already

 

[cubaisdeath]

speaking of chaingrabs, pit's dthrow can chaingrab all the spacies to 40% or higher in some cases lol

 

[GHNeko]

I just discovered that wario can chaingrab bowser to 50% with downthrow, unfortunately i dont have another human to test if this is a true chaingrab but i figured id throw it out there. Sorry if its been mentioned already

speaking of chaingrabs, pit's dthrow can chaingrab all the spacies to 40% or higher in some cases lol

iz dat sum DI i cee

 

[Roxas215]

I agree about ness's bat sounds. It's sounds really dumb to hear it and it dont kill them. Make the sound only at the tip of the bat.

 

[Revven]

I just discovered that wario can chaingrab bowser to 50% with downthrow, unfortunately i dont have another human to test if this is a true chaingrab but i figured id throw it out there. Sorry if its been mentioned already

Been known.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

It seems I can't get the 5-8 pal set to work with textures, is there another way I can load both textures and brawl+?

Also I would like to add a custom css screen while using brawl+, when I make a separate gct for that what would I need to do so that I can load the textures, brawl+ and the CSS all at the same time?

Still need help with this.

 

[GHNeko]

I agree about ness's bat sounds. It's sounds really dumb to hear it and it dont kill them. Make the sound only at the tip of the bat.

And what if the tip doesnt kill them. <_>

You need to play more Melee Ness and 64 Ness.

 

[ph00tbag]

Hey >B was nerfed and fsmash was buffed. Trade-offs are fun!

Maybe I'm a bit late in saying this, but trade-offs are also completely and utterly unnecessary. And in this case, it's not much of a trade-off. Fsmash didn't get better enough for it to be a useful move. Buffing the knockback does not make up for the fact that the move is terrible in every other way; frame for frame, it is the worst move in her arsenal, save, perhaps uthrow. And buffing the damage doesn't help, because fsmash is only safe out of dsmash, and I can do 18% damage with a dash attack -> utilt combo. Hell, I could probably do more with dash -> jabx3 -> dash -> dtilt -> what have you. Fsmash's usefulness is still limited, and there are still many, many better options.

Honestly, you don't even need to buff fsmash. It's perfectly fine to leave it and just nerf Plasma Whip. ZSS was already really good to begin with. She doesn't need to get better. Nerfing the Plasma Whip, on the other hand is acceptable, because it lowers the reward for what is a very low-risk move in certain situations. Although I think the buff in knockback doesn't really help balance out the nerf in damage. It's already got insane knockback.

I'd also appreciate it if the fire property were put back on. The electric property is just plain unappealing to me. This is more of an aesthetic opinion, though, so feel free to ignore it. Please don't ignore what I say above it, though.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I'd also appreciate it if the fire property were put back on. The electric property is just plain unappealing to me. This is more of an aesthetic opinion, though, so feel free to ignore it. Please don't ignore what I say above it, though.

I think the change to it being with electric property is to give it constant hitlag, since there's a code in Brawl+ that gives electric attacks a constant hitlag. (But I'm not absolutely positive on this, though.)

But yeah, I totally agree with what you said regarding the "balancing trade-offs" and such of the two moves.

 

[GHNeko]

That and Electric Hitlag is easier to DI than any other element.

 

[:034:]

Still need help with this.

Well...

In the US version, the part that allows textures to work with a single .gct is written in the gameconfig.txt file, it's File Replacement v2.1. The PAL version of this doesn't work yet, you have to use the Dynamic SD Loader codes and File Replacement v1.3, which turns it into a double .gct.

I'm not sure if you could load this set in the same gct as the File Replacement one... I guess? Maybe? I'm not sure. As far as I know, you'll have to wait until 2.1 works.