Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Yuna]

Brawl has fair balance when you are trying to compare characters to characters on whether or not they can be played equally by people with equal skills. When I mean fair balance, I do not mean perfect balance! Perfect balance would mean constant sudden death matches, even though that happens most of the time with me. There is some flaws with the speed characters and the powerhouses. Oh, and those characters who can FLY.

No. This is not true. We've illustrated why this isn't true with, you know, verifiable facts.

You saying "Well, it's balanced" without providing any proof does not make it so. Please, go back and read up on some of the things that have been said in this thread as I will not repeat myself for the 29th time to yet another newcomer to the thread who hasn't even bothered with reading back 5 pages in a 100+ page thread.

When entering a reaaaaally long thread, one should not always assume what one has to say is new and has never been said before (in that thread).

Speed characters usually ARE the powerhouses, since they can hit and run without even a graze. When someone like Ganon is trying to hit Pit, it's sad to see his constant slowness be ridiculed by Pit's oh-so-darn-deflective mirror shield.

...

Wait. Why am I bringing up Pit? He's very unbalanced, and the scales usually tip in his favor in many battles. I can only see him losing when fighting another player of equivalent skill who will do anything to clip off those wings of his. But then again, he's knocked out to the side easily...so I guess that's in favor? Yes. No. Maybe so.

Pit is actually mid-weightish. Not that easy to knock out.

Point is, speed characters got a little treat in this game, to further their sweet tooth. The powerhouses were told to stay off the soda.

I'm sorry, how well have the powerhouses of Brawl been able to do in tournaments? That's right, not at all. Except for DeDeDe, who get sby largely on chaingrabs and infinites.

No, I will not repeat everything I've had to say to refute what you just said 'cause I've already said it all 29 times (at the very least). I've earned the right to excuse myself from repeating myself by now. Go back and read up on what's already been said.

What you just said has been largely refuted already.

 

[The Myk]

EDIT: Okay, Yuna, I'll go read the last 200 pages to see where you have repeated this arguement. Sorry for my bother. I just thought this was a thread where you could bring your own opinion in, but I guess I should have specified that.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I do not believe that Brawl is more balanced than Melee. However, the exodus of Brawl is akin, in many ways, to the genesis of Melee. Let's take a walk down memory lane.

The Book of Melee
In the beginning, there was only Melee. The Lord said "Let there be Sheik," and lo, there was Sheik. Sheik traversed the lands, destroying everything in her path, and so, countless studies took place as to how to beat Sheik. Now, several years later, Sheik is beatable, and no longer the prophesied weapon of mass destruction she was originally heralded to be.

The Book of Brawl
...Basically, same deal, except take out Sheik and replace her with Snake. Snake is beatable. He's a strong, fast, high-priority cheeseball, but he's beatable. I think that, one day, we'll see a different top tier than the one that exists now, and Brawl will evolve, just as Melee did.

 

[Yuna]

EDIT: Okay, Yuna, I'll go read the last 200 pages to see where you have repeated this arguement. Sorry for my bother. I just thought this was a thread where you could bring your own opinion in, but I guess I should have specified that.

Read back even 10 pages. Heck, read the OP, a lot of it refutes your post and still stands. I'm gonna edit that OP soon and point to it every time someone obviously refuted to read it.

When entering a 200 page thread, it's prudent to read back at least 10 pages to make sure what one is about to say hasn't already been said. It's also smart to not post only stuff that most probably has already been said because it's all commonly thrown around arguments.

It's also smart to bring with you verifiable facts as evidence. Your opinion is just that, an opinion, until you can prove it holds water.

 

[The Myk]

Yeah. An opinion. So why should you care about what I say? If you don't like it, then just don't recognize it!

What you're doing right now is bashing. It is very horrible.

To be more great, reading back for 10 pages can take over 20 minutes in a person's spare time, probably for an above-average reader. This thread has posts that can take over a minute to just read one. With so many of said posts on one page, reading 10 pages is what no one wants to do, especially in such an active forum.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah. An opinion. So why should you care about what I say? If you don't like it, then just don't recognize it!

Because you're bringing it into the debate. As it's a debate, we can either let it stand unchallenged or refute it.

What you're doing right now is bashing. It is very horrible.

No I'm not. Asking you to please go back and read up a little on the thread is not bashing. Saying that your opinion is only an opinion unless you have facts to back it up is not bashing.

To be more great, reading back for 10 pages can take over 20 minutes in a person's spare time, probably for an above-average reader. This thread has posts that can take over a minute to just read one. With so many of said posts on one page, reading 10 pages is what no one wants to do, especially in such an active forum.

Why are you entering such a deep debate when you have neither the time nor patience to spend even 20 minutes reading up on what has already been said over the past several months?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

To be more great, reading back for 10 pages can take over 20 minutes in a person's spare time, probably for an above-average reader. This thread has posts that can take over a minute to just read one. With so many of said posts on one page, reading 10 pages is what no one wants to do, especially in such an active forum.

Heck, read the OP, a lot of it refutes your post and still stands.

Holy fail.....

 

[Yuna]

Holy fail.....

I'm assuming you're saying that The Myk is failing?

Also, switch the orders of those quotes around as my quote predates his.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I'm assuming you're saying that The Myk is failing?

Also, switch the orders of those quotes around as my quote predates his.

Yes, I was saying that The Myk is failing. The reason I posted them in reverse chronological order is to display the irony that you debunked his "I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ ALL THAT" comment before he even made it.

 

[Yuna]

Yes, I was saying that The Myk is failing. The reason I posted them in reverse chronological order is to display the irony that you debunked his "I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ ALL THAT" comment before he even made it.

Yes, I realize that. But those who didn't read the post might think that what he said predates what I said.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Yes, I realize that. But those who didn't read the post might think that what he said predates what I said.

There's very little chance of that. All they'd have to do is go up a few scrolls, and if they're too lazy to do that, then they're too ignorant for me to care what they think in the first place.

 

[Fawriel]

Myk, don't take it too hard.

I do not believe that Brawl is more balanced than Melee. However, the exodus of Brawl is akin, in many ways, to the genesis of Melee. Let's take a walk down memory lane.

The Book of Melee
In the beginning, there was only Melee. The Lord said "Let there be Sheik," and lo, there was Sheik. Sheik traversed the lands, destroying everything in her path, and so, countless studies took place as to how to beat Sheik. Now, several years later, Sheik is beatable, and no longer the prophesied weapon of mass destruction she was originally heralded to be.

This made laugh. Good job.

Question is if the point you're making is true... Sheik at least has some obvious disadvantages in low aerial speed that hampers her approach and makes her easy to combo, and a somewhat bad recovery... Snake kind of... doesn't really have any. I guess people might find ways to more consistently beat the likes of Snake and MK, but I'm afraid it will still only happen with all the other characters who are conspicuously lacking in terms of weaknesses.

 

[Yuna]

Sheik has low aerial speed? On what, Dair? Horrible!

 

[Fawriel]

Horizontal movement, Yuna. Horizontal movement.

 

[Yuna]

Horizontal movement, Yuna. Horizontal movement.

Umm... so does Snake? Also, since when does Sheik have slow horizontal aerial movement?

 

[Psymon]

Definately. Though tier groups haven't been decided on yet (rightly so, wait longer ffs =P), when they have, there won't be as huge leaps in how good characters are in one tier from another as there were in melee. Bowser vs. Marth in Melee would have meant another Bowser player would go home crying (unless it was Gimpyfish, he'd go home with the prize ¬.¬) but I think Nintendo have actually put TOO MUCH effort into making it a more even game, no matter who you pick. Psy.

 

[Yuna]

Definately. Though tier groups haven't been decided on yet (rightly so, wait longer ffs =P), when they have, there won't be as huge leaps in how good characters are in one tier from another as there were in melee. Bowser vs. Marth in Melee would have meant another Bowser player would go home crying (unless it was Gimpyfish, he'd go home with the prize ¬.¬) but I think Nintendo have actually put TOO MUCH effort into making it a more even game, no matter who you pick. Psy.

No, no, no.

Snake vs. Ganondorf.

 

[Fawriel]

Umm... so does Snake? Also, since when does Sheik have slow horizontal aerial movement?

1. Well, I guess.
2. ........................ she....................... just...... does. What?

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah... Sheik is pretty down there.

Horizontal Aerial Moving Speed - this measures how fast a character moves left and right in the air.

Just as a side note: Yes, Dr. Mario falls faster and farther horizontally in the air than Mario does. Test it yourself if you don't believe me.

Note: Unlike all the other characters, Jigglypuff travels FASTER in air than on the ground while running(however, it's faster to travel by Rollout in courses like the F-Zero 1-player Adventure Mode Stage).

1) Jigglypuff
2-3) Mewtwo / Yoshi
4) Captain Falcon
5) Peach
6-7) Link / Young Link
8-9) DK / Mr. Game & Watch
10) Zelda
11) Ness
12-14) Dr. Mario / Marth / Roy
15) Samus
16) Mario
17-18) Pichu / Pikachu
19) Sheik
20) Bowser
21-22) Ganondorf / Kirby
23) Ice Climbers
24) Luigi
25-26) Falco / Fox

 

[IrArby]

Yea shiek does feel slow in the air. Ever shuffled a Nair with her? I think its partly because she's so fast everywhere else too though.

Lobelia MK. IV: Its not so much that studies were done on how to beat Shiek as discoveries were made on how to play your character better for everyone else. Even still the Competitive Smash Community has been really great about recognizing potential in characters earyl on. Shiek is still in the top tiers. The current tier list is outdated and I'm thinking an updated one would put her in 2nd with Fox still on top, Marth 3rd Falco 4th since she draws (pretty **** close to) even with Fox, soft counters Marth, and beats Falco.
So yes we predict Snake/MK to be the best now, and they will always be in the running for the top no matter what. The problem with your argument is that theres no discoveries to be made to improve other chars, and theres hardly many ways to fight them more effectively (much less combo them) so there is little to upset the current standing of those top two.

 

[Yuna]

I stand corrected? But Sheik's game has never been around randomly jumping around in the air. She just shuffles Fairs and Bairs.

Also, the fact that Snake is also slow still remains.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik, SHFFLing? That's an odd one, considering she also shorthops so high.
Mostly she more than makes up for her less than stellar aerial mobility with amazing ground movement.

Snake can move pretty fast, just not in the air. Incidentally, he doesn't have much of an aerial game.

 

[IrArby]

Snake can move pretty fast, just not in the air. Incidentally, he doesn't have need of an aerial game.

fixed lol

Actually, since he doesn't approach in the air, only when edgeguarding, it may be seen as a good thing. Bair and Upair are great KOs/EdgeGuards right? So, if you're floating quickly or falling fast, you can't float around or above the edge as long. Bair has ridiculous range/priority so its now easier to set up for as long as you jump in their general direction.

Then again if you miss the edgeguard, your in a bad position and are unlikely to be able to hit them again since they'll have better air control then you. IDK just throwing thoughts out there.

 

[xion07]

um, I'll just say I like how they changed the effect of air dodging. In brawl when you air dodge, gravity pulls you down and you can do it more than once in the air. Its a great way of saving you from being launched off the screen. However, Melee does have air dodge but you can only do it once and you dodge without being pulled down by gravity.

 

[Dark Sonic]

um, I'll just say I like how they changed the effect of air dodging. In brawl when you air dodge, gravity pulls you down and you can do it more than once in the air. Its a great way of saving you from being launched off the screen. However, Melee does have air dodge but you can only do it once and you dodge without being pulled down by gravity.

I think multiple airdodges is the dumbest idea they could've come up with. Airdodging is supposed to carry some risk (though I admit melee's risk was a bit much).

Oh...and airdodging does not actually save you from being KO'd. That was debunked quite a while ago.

 

[IrArby]

sigh and lament . . .

 

[JigglyZelda003]

brawl you airdodge with momentum there is no gravity pull. Melee you go where you want to airdodge most of the time.

 

[IDK]

Bigmack209: You just said a whole bunch of nothing which doesn't prove anything either way.

aww thanks for your niceness. sorry for not making much sense. my words did barrel rolls cause i was unpossibly tired.

 

[IDK]

I think multiple airdodges is the dumbest idea they could've come up with. Airdodging is supposed to carry some risk (though I admit melee's risk was a bit much).

Oh...and airdodging does not actually save you from being KO'd. That was debunked quite a while ago.

wait... meaning it's not a momentum cancel anymore?

 

[Zankoku]

It never was one. People just assumed it was.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Well. Let's bring up the heat, then.

Brawl has fair balance when you are trying to compare characters to characters on whether or not they can be played equally by people with equal skills. When I mean fair balance, I do not mean perfect balance! Perfect balance would mean constant sudden death matches, even though that happens most of the time with me. There is some flaws with the speed characters and the powerhouses. Oh, and those characters who can FLY.
Speed characters usually ARE the powerhouses, since they can hit and run without even a graze. When someone like Ganon is trying to hit Pit, it's sad to see his constant slowness be ridiculed by Pit's oh-so-darn-deflective mirror shield.

Wait. Why am I bringing up Pit? He's very unbalanced, and the scales usually tip in his favor in many battles. I can only see him losing when fighting another player of equivalent skill who will do anything to clip off those wings of his. But then again, he's knocked out to the side easily...so I guess that's in favor? Yes. No. Maybe so.

Point is, speed characters got a little treat in this game, to further their sweet tooth. The powerhouses were told to stay off the soda.

Either you're a little behind on the times, or everyone hates Pit too much to play as him because of all his spam. MK would be a better example.

I don't understand where you went with this. Brawl is more balanced because speedy characters have the advantage?

EDIT: Sorry, the board keeps messing me up by sending me to the first unread post, rather than the most recent post.

 

[M@v]

After playing this game hardcore for a while, I'd have to say its overall just as balanced as melee except for one painful exception:

No, no, no.
Snake vs. Ganondorf.

As Yuma Mentioned, the gap between the best and the worst. The vast majority of the crowd is even. However, snake, MK, G&W to an extent, and even Falco if you play him right, can cause everyone problems. You can still beat them, but its an uphill fight for high and middle tiers. And the poor guys on the bottom cant barely beat anyone in this game. Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, CF, and Samus(R.I.P my melee main). Links pretty bad too, but hes at least able to win.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Personally, I only think the game is more balanced in the sence of total viable characters, not based on the proportion of viable characters. Yuna believes that Brawl has less viable characters altogether. The middle tier characters tend to have counterability against the tops, which is why they are middle tier.

For example, Pikachu chain-grabs Falco, has an advantage over D3, and is neutral if nothing else against Snake. Lucario just does well against Swordsmen and Snake. He might not be a good counter, but with proper spacing, Azen has shown that Lucario is at least a slight counter for MK. Lucario also has a tendency to do well against swordsmen in general (Marth), and fairs better than expected against Snake.

The most interesting character in this reguard is Pokemon Trainer, as his pokemon were made as counterpicks against eachother and work in interesting ways against the rest of the cast. Charzard is a strong counter for Olimar (By the way, NEVER counterpick Final Destination against Olimar, no matter who you play as). Ivysaur counterpicks against aerial fighters.

If these characters (except PT) are too high to be mid-tier, I am sorry, but I do not know much about specific mid-tier characters.

 

[Zankoku]

By the way, NEVER counterpick Final Destination against Olimar, no matter whop you play as

What? I destroy Olimar with Marth, no matter what stage it happens to be.

 

[IrArby]

Lucario is NOT an MK counter he just doesn't lose as badly to him. One of the biggest things that keeps Lucario in the game is MK's strategy which is to actually build up damage through constant pressure. Snake just gets in his few hits, knocks you far away and resets. But, Lucario gets stronger with more damage thus, his hits count for more and more as MK racks up damage like he always does. Its still difficult for Lucario to get his hit in anyway and even if he does MK will survive it to ridiculous percents.

Lastly, the only person making this matchup feasible is Azen. Just watch one of his vids against Forte and tell me he doesn't punish Forte everytime he fudges his spacing. M2K's MK doens't seem to mess up the spacing so much so he wins. The fact that he gets stronger with more damage doesn't help him much against Snake who just out prioritizes him and knocks him way offstage so spacing is a non-issue.

Please tell me how Pika is even with Snake.
I don't know the matchup but I don't think he has the advantage over D3 either.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Pika against Snake is due to Pikachu's ability to dodge Snakes projectiles easily and Pika's dominance over Snake's air game (using thunder).

I don't believe D3 can effectively chaingrab pikachu, and D3 is an easy target for thunder.

 

[Zankoku]

EVERYONE has dominance over Snake's air game. Snake's air game is throwing out the occasional aerial to cover himself in a hitbox on his way to ground. You still haven't dispelled the theory that you're just not playing with good people.

 

[IrArby]

Since when have Snake's Projectiles been the part of his metagame that is hardest to overcome? Nevar. Pickachu loses on all other fronts. Snake dominates anything on the ground and has a measure of control on the air using his Upsmash espesiaclly out of a dash attack. He doesn't need an aerial game since anyone he Sh's aerials at him can get punished out of shield even MK since the Ftilt has unGodly range.

 

[Yuna]

Pika against Snake is due to Pikachu's ability to dodge Snakes projectiles easily and Pika's dominance over Snake's air game (using thunder).

I don't believe D3 can effectively chaingrab pikachu, and D3 is an easy target for thunder.

Thunder, not that good. Stop using it as an example of Pikachu's prowess!

 

[AlexX]

With all this Brawl hate, I can't help but wonder what (if any) redeeming features it has... Anyone know?