Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Corigames]

It's true what Yuna says about experience. In order make claims about the game, you can only do so with the extensive knowledge behind the game. Anyone can can lurk the boards and look up all the ATs, see the character matchups, watch youtube videos, etc. But, without going to a real tournament, you haven't applied anything to the game really. Playing the same people over and over again only gets you use to their character and mindgames. If you don't play other people, you won't have the ability to deal with other people. Experience is a huge factor in any debate.

It's called "professional opinion." And, while some of us may not be labled as pros, I suppose, having years of experience in the competitive part of the game series over someone who only has a few months usually has a better concieved opinion. That's just how it is. If we wanted a tier list made, we wouldn't ask someone who hasn't played the game or just got done unlocking all the characters would we? However, someone who has played the characters, been to tournaments, checked results online, read up on the advantages/disadvantages, and watched videos of each has a much better opinion on the subject.

Am I right?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It's true what Yuna says about experience. In order make claims about the game, you can only do so with the extensive knowledge behind the game. Anyone can can lurk the boards and look up all the ATs, see the character matchups, watch youtube videos, etc. But, without going to a real tournament, you haven't applied anything to the game really. Playing the same people over and over again only gets you use to their character and mindgames. If you don't play other people, you won't have the ability to deal with other people. Experience is a huge factor in any debate.

It's called "professional opinion." And, while some of us may not be labled as pros, I suppose, having years of experience in the competitive part of the game series over someone who only has a few months usually has a better concieved opinion. That's just how it is. If we wanted a tier list made, we wouldn't ask someone who hasn't played the game or just got done unlocking all the characters would we? However, someone who has played the characters, been to tournaments, checked results online, read up on the advantages/disadvantages, and watched videos of each has a much better opinion on the subject.

Am I right?

Yes you are right. However, years of experience only applies to melee, not Brawl. I actually try to stay away from direct comments about melee myself, because admittedly I only possess extencive knowledge about Brawl's competitive scene, and I am somewhat behind on melee knowledge. However, getting back to the topic of balance might help us improve our own abilities more than bashing someone unknowledgable.

Back onto any topic, - What is the best way to discover counterpick tactics? I already shared my opinion - to find which of the PT's pokemon is the most effective in any given matchup and search for these qualities among other characters.

How do other people look for personalized counterpicks - counterpicks which are realized by personal experience rather than a chart?

 

[metaXzero]

Well said corey.

Now I just need to find a tourny...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Well said corey.

Now I just need to find a tourny...

me too..... but even if i do theres probably no way i'd be able to go to it, so many limitations........ (sigh)

on topic:

is it possible to look for counter picking by first analyzing (insert character name) weaknesses. then see which characters can exploit those weaknesses while coving for their own against the said character?

am i going somewhere with this or am i completely off?

 

[Corigames]

Can you easily list a character's weakness though? sometimes it may be something as easy as "Bad Recovery," but what about things like "Bad Approach?" What is a "Bad Approach?" Is it bad options, no good moves, better options, etc.? The more vague weaknesses are a problem. And some weaknesses are easy to point out but hard to counter. For instance, MK's weakness has to be that he's light. Obviously, a strong character with some Super Armor frames would do well against him, right? Well, that's simply not been the case. He's too fast and such characters are usually heavy and he has the ability to combo them. So in fact, he counters his would be counters. The best way to stop MK would be to have a fast strong character, but, if they did make such a character, he would be broken. Enter Snake...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

When I am not totally sure what to look for in a counter character, I enter matches against the character which is giving me trouble. Even against a computer, it is possible to identify which characters have aspects that work on another, and which don't. I use PT specifically because it is clear when you use him that some of his pokemon fair better in matchups than others, which helps me isolate character attributes to look for within counterpicks.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@THC

well the AI does have some use to begin looking couter picking but humans are the much better option altogether. as for the PT, testing with him to test counter picking, wouldn't that mean that which ever pokemon has some advantage against (insert character name) any other character would have to have similar traits as that pokemon to be even a slight counter? and even then the different character does add new weaknesses to the equation b/c they are not exactly like that pokemon.

like your example of charizard is a counter to olimar. hmm so charizard outweighs and out recovers against olimar, but this is true for quite a few other characters as well. does Charizard have a safe approach? if so how many does he have? can he expliot olimars 3 obvious weakpoints being bad recover, light weight, and w/o pikmin he's pretty much dead, without having his own weaknesses exploited back, to the point of being like corey used with MK a counter against himself?

oh and TY Corey for your input i know my idea was missing alot but i couldn't word it so well enough with all that at the time i typed it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Actually, Charizard has the most important quality possible when facing Olimar - Charizard can approach. Flamethrower stops pikmin, Rock-Smash stops pikmin, and F-air is a good approach as well. Although, I would still avoid the level stages...

If I knew more people who played Smash well, I wouldn't rely on the AI. human experience is superior to CPU experience, and knowledge about human matchups would be greatly appreciated.

Back on topic, the pokemon Trainer gives you SOMETHING to work with. Unlike using mains for testing, you are forced to anylize the opponent through theeyes of three radically different characters, and then observe the qualities which make some of them more effective than others. Naturally, the character that is settled with will have different weaknesses and strengths than the pokemon you tested with. However, the pokemon able you to identify the attributes you are searching for in a counter-pick. I do not believe this is necesarily the best system, however, as I use these tests myself only in the context of the Pokemon Trainer's approaches to battles, rather than identifying other characters to use.

Basically, I discovered that Ivysaur's characteristics with anti-air attacks and projectiles can suffice against MK. However, I do not know where to next look for these qualities. Advice please?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Basically, I discovered that Ivysaur's characteristics with anti-air attacks and projectiles can suffice against MK. However, I do not know where to next look for these qualities. Advice please?

Sadly, no character possesses more aerial range than MK and simultaneously has a useful projectile. Some characters like DK have range in the air, but lacks a usable projectile, while others like Falco have a projectile, but lack the range in the air.

The closest one is Snake, who out-ranges on the GROUND and has projectiles.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Pit?

And I'm guessing you mean priority in the air, not range

 

[IrArby]

Generally, good counters have to first and foremost counter the strengths of the other character rather than exploit their weaknesses. If you only counter their weaknesses than they still have all of their strengths. Melee Falcon (the good Falcon) counters Marth since he can work around Marth's biggest strength (his range) because Falcon's speed allows him to do so.

You have to be able to counter, nullify, or at least avoid the other characters strengths before you can start countering their weaknesses (generally speaking ofcourse).

M I ryt?

(what everyone else is saying it)

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

its comparing lucario to snake from brawl, and ganon to every other top tier character in melee, ganon still did better against them than lucario does vs snake. he was saying lucario had the advantage because he could throw back projectiles at snake, but in melee he said ganon had no projectiles so vs fox and falco he got creamed, and i stated thats not the case, and melees ganon did better against teh top tiers than lucario does in brawl.

Lol wut? I'm not talking about how well Ganon DID against these characters, I'm talking about potential.

Snake doesn't have anything cheap that he can do to mess up Lucario that would put him at an unnatural advantage.

Ganon in Melee however, could be infinite shined by Fox, which if done correctly is a 0-death KO that could start from something as simple as a Dair from a shield.

You can't tell me that Snake has a 0-death on Lucario, can you? And his side of stage chain grab doesn't count because it's too hard to pull off to be practical, unlike the shine.

Also, Lucario is an excellent character all around. There's a reason Azen plays him, you know. Quite a bit better than Melee Ganon.

Lucario isn't JUST about chain grabs against Snake either. He has plenty of disjointed lingering hitboxes, a good way to approach Snake through his grenades and missiles (reverse double team) enough range to deal with Snake's own range, and an excellent off-stage pressure game to help him exploit Snake's poor recovery as well as a projectile of his own that he can use to give himself some breathing space at range. PLUS a rather nifty chain grab that no matter what % Lucario is at will usually get you a free 40% at the least.

His major downside when facing Snake is that Snake does a lot of damage fast, and KOs soon, meaning that Lucario won't often be able to survive over 100%, which is when he's at his prime. That's not to say that Lucario isn't competent at as low as 50%, but to give you an idea of why we Lucario players like to be at high %: Dair alone does a whopping base 18% when Lucario is at 100 and up. And that's not even mentioning all his other attacks. It may not seem like much in comparison to Snake's Ftilt, but if you know about how safe the majority of Lucario's moves are, plus the fact that he can actually combo, it becomes apparent that the merits of the aura booster are very much real.

 

[Yuna]

Yes you are right. However, years of experience only applies to melee, not Brawl. I actually try to stay away from direct comments about melee myself, because admittedly I only possess extencive knowledge about Brawl's competitive scene, and I am somewhat behind on melee knowledge. However, getting back to the topic of balance might help us improve our own abilities more than bashing someone unknowledgable.

There's a reason why it's a general rule that those of us who played Melee Competitively and made the transition to Brawl usually do better than those who only started with Brawl.

Heck, take a Competitive Guilty Gear player and a Casual videogamer and have them both start playing Smash Competitively (with the same dedication) at the same time and the former will most probably do much better.

Why? Because of experience. We already possessed the necessary mindset and basic understandings of Competitive fighting games. When we see someone do a DACUS, we don't react with "Wow, cool!" or "Wow, cheap!", we react with "Hmmm... can my character do that? If so, what's the timing? Between what %s and against what characters will it work?". And then we try it out.

Now the newbie might do the same but it's not a part of their instinct to immediately think like that. We also have a smaller learning curve than newbies since we already know the basics of Competitive fighting games (or in my case, Competitive Smash). We know how Melee works/worked and since Brawl is similar, we have a huge leg up on the newbies who never played Melee (Competitively).

You can't tell me that Snake has a 0-death on Lucario, can you? And his side of stage chain grab doesn't count because it's too hard to pull off to be practical, unlike the shine.

So? Fox couldn't 0-death Pikachu either and Pika had a chaingrab on him.

Also, Lucario is an excellent character all around. There's a reason Azen plays him, you know. Quite a bit better than Melee Ganon.

I'm sorry, what?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

So? Fox couldn't 0-death Pikachu either and Pika had a chaingrab on him.

Pikachu was a horrible disadvantage to Fox despite his chain grab. He couldn't afford to use his projectiles due to the reflector, he didn't have the attacking speed nor the range to keep up with Fox, and other such things.

Lucario doesn't suffer too badly against Snake at all, despite being a mid-weight against a character who can KO early. Snake doesn't shut down any of his more common tactics or force him to play uncomfortably. Not like Mr. Game and Watch can. Lucario also has an easy time setting up Snake for aerial combos due to how slow his aerials are. He also has a relatively easy time taking advantage of Snake's recovery.

I'm sorry, what?

Oh, didn't you know? D:

 

[Yuna]

Pikachu was a horrible disadvantage to Fox despite his chain grab. He couldn't afford to use his projectiles due to the reflector, he didn't have the attacking speed nor the range to keep up with Fox, and other such things.

I was merely saying "Oh, he can chaingrab and combo the Top Tier!" doesn't automatically mean "Really good matchup". Though I will look more into this Lucario vs. Snake matchup but all I'm seeing are a few Lucarios running around tooting Lucario's horn.

Lucario doesn't suffer too badly against Snake at all, despite being a mid-weight against a character who can KO early. Snake doesn't shut down any of his more common tactics or force him to play uncomfortably. Not like Mr. Game and Watch can.

Does mean much if his common tactics don't work exceptionally well against Snake.

Oh, didn't you know? D:

My point was that Azen has been maining Random and Low Tier for years now. He used Luigi, a true Low Tier (not Mid, like Lucario), and consistently placed Top 5 as him.

You said "There's a reason why Azen uses Lucario!" as if it means he's good. But the reason why he uses Lucario is probably because he feels Lucario's not that good.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I was merely saying "Oh, he can chaingrab and combo the Top Tier!" doesn't automatically mean "Really good matchup". Though I will look more into this Lucario vs. Snake matchup but all I'm seeing are a few Lucarios running around tooting Lucario's horn.


Does mean much if his common tactics don't work exceptionally well against Snake.


My point was that Azen has been maining Random and Low Tier for years now. He used Luigi, a true Low Tier (not Mid, like Lucario), and consistently placed Top 5 as him.

You said "There's a reason why Azen uses Lucario!" as if it means he's good. But the reason why he uses Lucario is probably because he feels Lucario's not that good.

Well I didn't claim that Lucario had a "really good match-up" with Snake. I said that he could compete with him at an equal level and also had a handy trick that he could use. I can't remember saying that he was a Snake "counter". I even was quick to state that Snake's damage dealing capacity doesn't fare well for Lucario.

But Snake is a popular character for many of us Lucario players test our combos on. His weight and falling speed make him perfect for comboing, and he's also a very commonly used character so these combos will be often used. He doesn't have many ways to outrange or outprioritise Lucario in the air, which is where most of these combos take place. His grenades and explosives are also a great way to find a use for reverse double team as a way to close in, and due to the double-hit nature of his Ftilt, Lucario can actually roll behind him after the initial knee after shielding it and punish due to his very fast and very effective roll/side dodge.

I honestly believe it's a neutral match up, if not one that only very slightly favours Snake.

Put it this way: Lucario does better against Snake than Metaknight does, yet he's not really a counter. My original argument was that there are a decent amount of viable characters who can compete in top tier battles, whether they be counterpicks or not. I used Lucario as an example since he is not considered a top tier character, yet has an EQUAL match against both Snake and Metaknight.

...but NOT Mr. Game and Watch.

It's certainly possible for a Lucario player to go up against a Snake and not have to worry about having a bad match up.

And I was under the impression that Azen was known for using Marth in Melee. I probably have my facts wrong or am confusing him with Ken. But either way, thanks to Azen using Lucario, he's slowly becoming more popular and has been appearing more frequently in tournaments. And he fairs decently well against a few key top tier characters. Better than a majority of the cast.

 

[Yuna]

And I was under the impression that Azen was known for using Marth in Melee. I probably have my facts wrong or am confusing him with Ken. But either way, thanks to Azen using Lucario, he's slowly becoming more popular and has been appearing more frequently in tournaments. And he fairs decently well against a few key top tier characters. Better than a majority of the cast.

Azen used almost everybody in Melee. Early on in his career, he used mainly Top Tiers, like Marth and Sheik. But then he started using mainly Random and (consciously choosing) Low Tiers.

Also, sorry for misreading your post. There are too many people running around claiming Lucario is a Snake-counter or has an advantageous matchup against him on these boards.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Azen used almost everybody in Melee. Early on in his career, he used mainly Top Tiers, like Marth and Sheik. But then he started using mainly Random and (consciously choosing) Low Tiers.

Also, sorry for misreading your post. There are too many people running around claiming Lucario is a Snake-counter or has an advantageous matchup against him on these boards.

Lucario noobs like to hype him a lot. He's not a top tier counter, but he is a solid option against much of Brawl's cast, making him a great counter pick. The thing that I like most about Lucario is that he's a strange character. He doesn't LOOK like he's any good just from a look, but when you get in there and analise his frame data, etc. it becomes apparent that he really does have a lot of versatility and interesting properties.

For example, not many characters have an attack that hits in an arc above, behind and in front of them with a disjointed hitbox that has enough range to catch rollers with ease and comes out in 3 frames. His Fsmash looks slow, but it has amazing range and hardly any ending lag, prompting opponents to try to roll around it, then get caught by Utilt before they can even move again. He's VERY good at making it hard for opponents to effectively approach thanks to his hitboxes, which not only have great range, but are large and linger with strong priority.

There's a lot of other stuff that I could go into detail about, but it's nothing that a trip to the Lucario character boards wouldn't explain.

 

[Yuna]

Lucario noobs like to hype him a lot. He's not a top tier counter, but he is a solid option against much of Brawl's cast, making him a great counter pick.

He's not a "great counterpick" is he goes even against most of the cast. A great counterpick would be one that has a noticable advantage.

Stuff.

"Lucario is really good if you play against someone who isn't used to playing against Lucario."

Nobody cares if his hitboxes are weird or looks can be deceiving. We only care about how good he really is when the opponent knows what they're doing.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I thought Azen played Lucario cause he liked him.

And personally I think Lucario's pretty good. But opinions are for nubs. We're looking at facts here.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

He's not a "great counterpick" is he goes even against most of the cast. A great counterpick would be one that has a noticable advantage.


"Lucario is really good if you play against someone who isn't used to playing against Lucario."

Nobody cares if his hitboxes are weird or looks can be deceiving. We only care about how good he really is when the opponent knows what they're doing.

Once again, you really need to stop putting words in my mouth. Lucario does well against opponents whether or not they know his hitboxes and mind games. When I said he was deceptive, I meant that he looks unimpressive from an uneducated point of view, yet his statistics and abilities say otherwise. He is incredibly versatile, has a decent approach and a VERY solid defensive game, and is excellent at shutting down opponent's approaches. He has combos and is good at gimping, can rack up damage safely and quickly, and is very difficult to punish overall. His moves have excellent range and priority and stay out for upwards of 15 frames after activation. He has a great ground game AND a great aerial game, plus a slow moving projectile that can be used to harass opponents. He is not light, survives well, and his recovery is also better than it appears to be thanks to the many stage specific recovery tricks that Lucario players rely on...as well as his Fair being almost unmatched by many other aerials in the game in terms of range, priority and hitbox duration. He has chain grabs against many noteworthy characters, including Dedede, Snake and Wolf....and so on so forth.

Yes, Lucario doesn't shut down or counter Metaknight or Snake, but seriously, who does? He has better match ups against those two than many other characters who are otherwise great but suffer in the hands of top tiers. He doesn't have any character-specific gimps (not even Falco can chain throw him) that are worthy of note either. He even has a good approach against projectile spammers in his reverse double team.

And I haven't even mentioned the fact that he gets more powerful as he recieves damage.

at 50%, Lucario's Dair deals 15%. This move comes out in 4 frames, halts his momentum, and has ludicrous vertical range. It can also be used to end Fair combos if spaced correctly.

His only real weakness is the not-excellent recovery and the fact that he has no early KO moves that activate under 10 frames, and that he has a harder time camping than other projectile users. Most of these trivial weaknesses can be easily overcome when you realise that he can work around them. The KO problem doesn't seem to bother Lucario players as much as Samus, since Lucario can spam his KO moves without worrying about being punished easily, gimp opponents off the stage, or lure opponents into traps using his lingering hitboxes and excellent pressure/mindgames potential.

Due to the nature of said hitboxes, Lucario actually has ways to put the opponent in positions where they will take damage even if they can air dodge or jump, or at least be sent into a bad position on the stage. AA>running grab is an example, since the only way to escape this combo is to do an air jump before the last hit, causing the opponent to waste their second jump, and putting them in the perfect position for Lucario to chase them in the air, or punish them as they land with an aura sphere.

There are some that work even better ( I think involving an up throw) but I can't think of that right at this moment.

So yeah, he's a SOLID character all around, despite not being top tier for some reason. He can compete with Snake and Metaknight on equal ground, and even has a trick against Snake that he can use to get easy wins if he's lucky.

I mean: Forcepalm grab Snake to the edge of the stage (Snake can't break out until 70%) then do a running grab and repeatedly pummel, causing Snake to do a front breakout and drop. Due to Snake's fast falling speed, he ends up quite far below the level. Due to his short second jump, he WILL need to end up using his up B if he wants to grab the ledge. Either way, Lucario has time to drop down and use Dair, Fair, or whatever to attempt a gimp. And even if it doesn't gimp, it does a load of damage.

You want me to post the frame data for his moves or something? It's pretty impressive to see his hitboxes I can tell you that.

 

[Yuna]

There you go again, traps and deceptive hitboxes. People who know how to play against Lucario won't repeatedly fall for those. It's called mixups, midgames and guessing game.

He's not bad, I'll give you that (in fact, whenever says "Lucario's doing well in tournaments! Balance!", I always say "Um... Lucario, not that bad.". But he's not going to magically jump into Top Tier or close to it anytime soon from what I can tell.

It's like Millia Rage in GGXXAC, she got a 5-5, 4-5 or 5-4 against pretty much everyone in the game. She's got a solid game and plays evenly against pretty much everyone. But she's not Top Tier because there are just so many characters that he a lot of more favourable matchups than her (as in 6-3s and such).

Also, punishing people as they land with an aura sphere? One, what does that even mean? And two, Aura Sphere?!

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

There you go again, traps and deceptive hitboxes. People who know how to play against Lucario won't repeatedly fall for those. It's called mixups, midgames and guessing game.

He's not bad, I'll give you that (in fact, whenever says "Lucario's doing well in tournaments! Balance!", I always say "Um... Lucario, not that bad.". But he's not going to magically jump into Top Tier or close to it anytime soon from what I can tell.

It's like Millia Rage in GGXXAC, she got a 5-5, 4-5 or 5-4 against pretty much everyone in the game. She's got a solid game and plays evenly against pretty much everyone. But she's not Top Tier because there are just so many characters that he a lot of more favourable matchups than her (as in 6-3s and such).

Also, punishing people as they land with an aura sphere? One, what does that even mean? And two, Aura Sphere?!

People who know how to play against Snake still fall for his various traps and ranged A moves, even though they expect them. Lucario is very much the same. Sure, they may not repeatedly fall for exactly the same tricks every time, but if there's one thing Lucario does very well, it's putting pressure on opponenets and getting them to do exactly what he wants.

I mean take this example: Down throw and follow up with a full jump Fair. If the opponent does not DI away from Lucario to the front, they WILL get hit if they don't have a very fast and very long-ranged aerial attack. The lack of lag at the end of down throw allows Lucario to follow the opponent up and get them with his Fair before they can jump. Yes, they can air dodge it, but Lucario's Fair stays out for so long andu ends so quickly that he can just hit them with it when the invincibility from the airdodge wears off. If they air dodge immediately, the lingering hitbox will get them. If they time the air dodge to go off just as his attack starts, then the second Fair will hit them. They can try to attack or use an up B but will most likely get punished because of how much range and priority Fair has. Now if they DO DI away from Lucario, they end up having to cover quite a lot of ground, often forcing them to go off the stage. Lucario can still run after them and pressure them in the air, but not with any guaranteed results.

Lucario just has so many options to work with, and limits the options of his opponents severely due to the way his attacks work. You can't punish Lucario the same way you can punish other characters. Even if you know about all this, it isn't going to change the fact that his moves and set ups are all really good.

Now to answer your question about Aura sphere and landing opponents (Aura sphere is neutral B by the way. It's a Pokemon attack.) when an opponent lands at any time, there's a short period where they cannot block an incoming attack if it's timed correctly, even if they air dodge. Lucario's Aura sphere is a huge, slow moving hitbox and if you time it correctly to catch an opponent just as they touch the ground, it's unblockable.

Of course, since the AA>grab combo needs to be jumped in order to be escaped, you're making your opponent second jump in very close proximity to you. You could even get the same effect by using an Fsmash (which has excellent range and lingers for 8 frames and isn't effected by reflectors.) or any one of his tilts.

Due to the nature of Snake's Cypher recovery, this is also great for keeping him off the stage.

Anyway, I doubt I'm going to change anyone's mind on this subject, so I'm not interested in arguing about it any more. This thread isn't about how good Lucario is, it's about balance in brawl's metagame. And I do honestly beleive that while Brawl itself is not a competitively balanced game, we do seem to have more characters that are viable to compete in tournament level play and do well. Snake and Metaknight may be dominating at the moment, but I think that it could also have to do with the "play to win" attitude (nothing wrong with that) causing people to bandwagon jump and play Snake and Metaknight more than they should rather than exploring the potential of characters who are close to achieving top tier status. Who knows? If more people start using...ooohh...Pikachu more, he may end up taking Snake's place as cheap mofo of the month. Likewise, there's always the potential for a sudden surge of Ice Climbers players who can do their numerous chain grabs perfectly. The potential is there.

 

[Fawriel]

Sorry if this has been said already, this is pretty much the only thread I follow, but... has there been any real movement made to create official custom counterpick stages?

With some extensive research and careful planning, you could create stages that make certain approaches harder while strengthening others. For instance, Dedede is amazing because of his chaingrab and he usually finishes with his up-tilt, so he could be countered by a lot more lower tier characters if he's fought on a stage with a small platform and a ceiling on top.
You could create stages with more ledges that allow for tether recoveries to work... stages with lots of platforms that encourage aerial approaches against Snake... giant stages that force you to land powerful moves for a KO...

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Sorry if this has been said already, this is pretty much the only thread I follow, but... has there been any real movement made to create official custom counterpick stages?

With some extensive research and careful planning, you could create stages that make certain approaches harder while strengthening others. For instance, Dedede is amazing because of his chaingrab and he usually finishes with his up-tilt, so he could be countered by a lot more lower tier characters if he's fought on a stage with a small platform and a ceiling on top.
You could create stages with more ledges that allow for tether recoveries to work... stages with lots of platforms that encourage aerial approaches against Snake... giant stages that force you to land powerful moves for a KO...

...I actually like the idea for this, although I think that the limits of stage builder are holding such a notion back.

Although having said that, I'm surprised that we aren't all using "Better Final Destination" custom stages that mimic Final D but without the killer edges. You can do it with a row of large blocks. It even prevents stalling by passing under the stage.

 

[Vyse]

Bring back my Dreamland 64 I say.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I miss that stage...

 

[eskimo bob]

Bring back my Dreamland 64 I say.

that, poke floats and melee bowser

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ah pokefloats i miss it too. but i really miss the fountain of dreams.

 

[eskimo bob]

sure, just remove the lag and bring back my bowser :D

 

[gantrain05]

...I actually like the idea for this, although I think that the limits of stage builder are holding such a notion back.

Although having said that, I'm surprised that we aren't all using "Better Final Destination" custom stages that mimic Final D but without the killer edges. You can do it with a row of large blocks. It even prevents stalling by passing under the stage.

well i don't know man, i've seen some pretty creative stage builder peoples, and i think that as for tourney stages, we can come up with alot of things.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Stage builder stages should absolutely be included in tournaments. There are a lot of custom stages that can be neutral (because of the lack of unusual elements) and not be entirely made up of a straight, solid platform with a few drop-through platforms on top.

Why aren't any custom stages taken seriously? I propose an official custom neutral stage list, for stage variety in tournaments.

 

[Yuna]

Why the hell are so many people whining about Final Destination? The majority of you guys are Americans and in Melee, the U.S. kept Battlefield on Random (Europe took it off Random and we all know how the Japanese played it, right?).

Battlefield's edges were even worse than Final Destination's and in Melee, you couldn't grab the ledge with your back turned to it so in a situation where simply Up B:ing would kill you, you couldn't reverse Up B to reverse grab the ledge.

If you're below FD's ledge at such an angle a simple Up B will kill you, reverse Up B:ing will save the majority of characters. Just don't get into such a situation and learn when to reverse Up B and when not to.

 

[Toadsanime]

Oh, I'll apologize now if you find that my comments have contained exampled of me flaming. I didn't mean to put it across that way. Just figured someone of your intelligence could take a good debate.
(Also, in that comment I'm not claiming that you were indefinitely thinking I was flaming. Just wanted to apologize for the situation anyway, just in case.)

Wait, what?

1) Hmm... sorry, I meant minority, not majority. I guess I was tired or something along those lines. (/excuse for typo)

I thought you were implying you were a Casual player when you got upset when I said that you have to be a Competitive player to know enough to participate in this discussion. The fact of the matter is that many Competitive players don't know enough to be a part of this discussion. It requires that much knowledge.

2) This topic requires more knowledge than competitive players hold...? How come? All your topic-starting post asked of us was that we are opinion-holders that have played the game extensively, of which I have. If you only wanted constant tournament-entries to reply, you should have mentioned so.

Also, I very much question your knowledge and judgment with statements like "Captain Falcon is just as good as anyone else!".

3) If you question my knowledge and judgement, that's fine by me. I'm not bothered what you think of my comments, so long as you accept them as my opinion.

You go to tournaments, you're a Competitive player. Or you play against people who do go to tournaments a lot.

4) I was aware of what people stereotypically refer to as a competitive player when you said 'you go to tournaments and you're a competitive player.' I was more referring to who has the priority of deciding this is the case and why.

Tell me, have you encountered a Pikachu who uses Quick Attack Cancels as an approach? Have you encountered DeDeDes who chaingrab? Have you encountered Zeldas who combo non-sweetspotted Dairs into sweetspotted Dairs when edgeguarding?
If you don't go to tournaments, you'll only play against a limited amount of people. Said limited amount of people, if they don't go to tournaments, will also have played a limited amount of people. You will all play people of limited skill because they do not go to tournaments or hang out on Smashboards enough to read up on the latest, the best and the most common.

5) Wait, you're assuming that all players that haven't been to tournaments have limited skill. Say the players that don't go to tournaments simply can't get to one...?
If one person duels another at a Brawl tourney, they may pick up each other's abilities, as you rightly put by saying that tourney players have more skills. Those abilities were probably picked up from a previous tourney, and that person's abilities were probably picked up from an even earlier tourney. If we date it back so far using this method to before the first ever proper tournament, where did all the players pick up these abilities...? Clearly they either learnt them themselves or picked them off from someone that they played with a friend/annoymous player? Therefore, all the skills learnt in a tournament originated from a player that had not ever been to one.
Unlike most of my statements, this is common sense, not opinion based.

6) I assumed you were a Casual player from your posts. And statements like how Captain Falcon is on an equal playing field as everyone else.

6) You've mentioned that you assumed I was a casual player because I had an opinion on Captain Falcon's balance very many times now. It's a little over-used. I don't have anything else to say about it without lecturing on the subject of opinions again.

I don't know all there is to know. I just know a lot more than you.'

7) How can you make such a big-headed assumption without knowing for certain of every single thing I know about the game...? And, please, don't come up with the Captain Falcon thing again. I've explained why I said that several times now. It was purely an example of why I personally think the characters are more balanced out than others presume. Not completely balanced by any means at all, but still slightly more balanced than some suggest.

How could you possibly read up on the game "several years" before it was initially released? Unless you mean the Smash Dojo, which didn't really give us much useful (new) information and which hasn't been around for "several years" (it was around for, what, 2 years before the release?).

8) Two things regarding that: first of all, keep in mind our release was delayed. I was referring to the UK release.
Secondly, no, I was not referring to the Smash Dojo. Since the game was first announced a long time ago, before even the Wii's release, things have always been announced. It just takes looking in the right place for such information. Of course, this information was pratically only about new characters, stages and the likes at first. As the game progressed, more information was released. Japanese Nintendo websites and the likes are very resourceful, most of all.
(To be exact concerning the announcement of a new Smash Bros. game in the works, early confirments were made at late 2004, and the game had been considered long before that.)

How many people who'd played Melee for years haven't told you Roy is better than Marth simply because they never figured out how to accurately play Marth?

9) None. I still don't see why we're dispatching so far away from the matter at hand...

I'm sorry, what part of "This discussion has no place for pure opinion without anything to back it up." was too Irish for you to grasp? You can't just say "This is my opinion". Fine, so we'd be stuck with 29,000 opinions. That's not very helpful. Or verifiable.

10) So for what reason exactly did you make this thread...? Did you not just want to see what the forum members thought of the matter...!? Not only this, but we both share equal views on the matter of the overall balance of the game. Are you yet again referring to my Captain Falcon example? And what on Earth was with the Irish reference? Is that some kind of bewildered new saying?

The question is, why are you so adamant about keeping that opinion when so many of us tell us why you're wrong? It's OK to have an opinion. But one should also know when to admit one's wrong and revise one's opinion.

11) Keeping what opinion...? We both share the same opinion on this topic. The only thing you could now be referring to is the Captain Falcon example I gave earlier on, again. If that is your reference, I've explained about that above.

Random opinions have no place in this discussion.

12) My one and only opinion I've expressed that you could be referring to as 'random' is the Captain Falcon example again. If that is your reference, I've explained about that above.

Peach is Top Tier. That's my opinion, there. Now if 10 more people say that, will that magically make her Top Tier?

13) Well, of course not. I've not mentioned any character's tier, though, and I don't see how that example has any reference to anything we've previously said. Are we yet again debating over my Captain Falcon example...? =_=

In this thread, you kinda need it. We have no need for blind opinions here. I told you this.

14) What blind opinion? Oh, goodness, Captain Falcon again...?

Gah! More babbling about opinion.

15) I was only babbling about opinion so much as to try and explain something. I can't be bothered to re-establish my meaning of that once again.

You: Captain Falcon is just as good as anyone else because I think so!

16) You're yet again assuming I'm stating everything I say as an answer expected to be seen as nothing but the truth; instead it's a personal view. (Me: Now that I've yet again established my Captain Falcon example, I'm once again conclude that I only think the characters are a little more balanced than some are suggesting. I am in now way saying that Melee is more balanced than Brawl, as previously explained, because I simply believe this holds no truth, just like Yuna's view.)

'You can talk how much you want in this thread. The question is what value it brings to the thread when what you say is highly inaccurate and pure opinion, using zero facts to support it. It's just someone spewing random opinions.'

17) I wasn't attempting to spurt out a valued opinion, just express it. We share the same overall view on the topic, need I remind you. My opinion was completely relevant, may I add.

Yay.

18) Also yay! ^_^
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is one if the most blantant examples I've seen of ignorance. Yuna is right in all accounts.

Lovely that you call me ignorant yet cannot establish why you think that 'Yuna is right in all accounts'. That is the truest form of irony I've ever seen, my friend.
Did you even notice that me and Yuna both believe Brawl is more unbalanced than Melee is? Probably not.
In no way have I been so blatantly disrespectful as you have, towards you nor Yuna. In fact, due to this debate, I have an incredibly high respect level for Yuna.

I remember when I thought the same way as Toadsanime. He'll get smarter as his post count goes up.

Though I see where you're coming from, I don't see how post counts mark our amount of knowledge and certify our opinions as 'wrong'. ^_^

It's true what Yuna says about experience. In order make claims about the game, you can only do so with the extensive knowledge behind the game. Anyone can can lurk the boards and look up all the ATs, see the character matchups, watch youtube videos, etc. But, without going to a real tournament, you haven't applied anything to the game really. Playing the same people over and over again only gets you use to their character and mindgames. If you don't play other people, you won't have the ability to deal with other people. Experience is a huge factor in any debate.

I play a massive arrange of players via online play. I mostly compete in random matches when I'm online, rather than duel with friends. Thus, I've played an incredibly vast amount of players from around the globe. Playing at tournaments is not the only resolution to be experienced enough to express a view on whether Melee or Brawl is more balanced. ^_^

If we wanted a tier list made, we wouldn't ask someone who hasn't played the game or just got done unlocking all the characters would we? However, someone who has played the characters, been to tournaments, checked results online, read up on the advantages/disadvantages, and watched videos of each has a much better opinion on the subject.

Tier lists have no place in this debate, I shouldn't think. Unless, of course, they're being used as evidence.
(I should probably once again state that me and Yuna both agree that Brawl is more unbalanced than Melee.) ^_^

I now feel like I'm not being taken as seriously as most simply because of the date at which I joined these boards.
There's plenty more places out there in the wide world of the internet that focus on exactly what these forums focus on, too, you know.

 

[ArcNatural]

Oh, I'll apologize now if you find that my comments have contained exampled of me flaming. I didn't mean to put it across that way. Just figured someone of your intelligence could take a good debate.

Your not debating. Your not even talking about the brawl vs melee balance anymore. Your simply trying to respond to everything that was directed towards your comments and I don't see where this is going to actually go back on topic. I'm not even sure what your trying to defend anymore. Are you trying to say that your comments are supposed to be referred to as an "opinion" and therefore should make sense for others to read? If you agree with Yuna, stop posting unless you actually have something relevant to the Brawl vs Melee balance debate.

2) This topic requires more knowledge than competitive players hold...? How come? All your topic-starting post asked of us was that we are opinion-holders that have played the game extensively, of which I have. If you only wanted constant tournament-entries to reply, you should have mentioned so.

You may have played the game extensively, but that doesn't = skill/knowledge. Let's face it, if you don't think that the majority of constant tournament players know more than you in terms of actual Brawl gameplay... Well I don't really know what to say.

3) If you question my knowledge and judgement, that's fine by me. I'm not bothered what you think of my comments, so long as you accept them as my opinion.

Opinions without any factual information to back it up:

MADE UP EXAMPLE: I THINK Lucario should move into the god tier with MK/Snake BECAUSE he has won the last 3 major tournaments.

This is the opinion Yuna and others are looking for. Not just opinion for the h*ll of it.

4) I was aware of what people stereotypically refer to as a competitive player when you said 'you go to tournaments and you're a competitive player.' I was more referring to who has the priority of deciding this is the case and why.

No debate here, competitive players have the priority. Why? EXPERIENCE.

5) Wait, you're assuming that all players that haven't been to tournaments have limited skill. Say the players that don't go to tournaments simply can't get to one...?
If one person duels another at a Brawl tourney, they may pick up each other's abilities, as you rightly put by saying that tourney players have more skills. Those abilities were probably picked up from a previous tourney, and that person's abilities were probably picked up from an even earlier tourney. If we date it back so far using this method to before the first ever proper tournament, where did all the players pick up these abilities...? Clearly they either learnt them themselves or picked them off from someone that they played with a friend/annoymous player? Therefore, all the skills learnt in a tournament originated from a player that had not ever been to one.
Unlike most of my statements, this is common sense, not opinion based.

I don't know what you are trying to prove. Everything has been in the game from day 1. You clearly state that tournament players have more skill because they play more players and therefore gain more experience themselves. Just because some tactic possibly originated from some kid party in a basement of Ohio doesn't mean they had skill or knowledge of the game when they figured it out.

7) How can you make such a big-headed assumption without knowing for certain of every single thing I know about the game...? And, please, don't come up with the Captain Falcon thing again. I've explained why I said that several times now. It was purely an example of why I personally think the characters are more balanced out than others presume. Not completely balanced by any means at all, but still slightly more balanced than some suggest.

It's not a big-headed assumption based on what you have posted. Your "pure example of what I personally think" is FALSE. Not only have you not supplied any factual information to why you believe that or why you think characters are more balanced than others presume, but you also do not disprove what other posters have said. You simply say "Well it's my personal opinion". If you don't want your opinion to be argued AND you don't want to defend it with logic, please stop with the inane posting.

16) You're yet again assuming I'm stating everything I say as an answer expected to be seen as nothing but the truth; instead it's a personal view. (Me: Now that I've yet again established my Captain Falcon example, I'm once again conclude that I only think the characters are a little more balanced than some are suggesting. I am in now way saying that Melee is more balanced than Brawl, as previously explained, because I simply believe this holds no truth, just like Yuna's view.)

Congratulations! Part of this quote actually had some revelance to the thread. Yet, once again you claim something without providing any actual facts. How do you conclude that the characters are a little more balanced than some are suggesting? And who are these people you are referring to?

17) I wasn't attempting to spurt out a valued opinion, just express it. We share the same overall view on the topic, need I remind you. My opinion was completely relevant, may I add.

Your opinion on your opinion is an opinion.

I play a massive arrange of players via online play. I mostly compete in random matches when I'm online, rather than duel with friends. Thus, I've played an incredibly vast amount of players from around the globe. Playing at tournaments is not the only resolution to be experienced enough to express a view on whether Melee or Brawl is more balanced. ^_^

Online play for the most part is fail, I certainly hope it's better in Europe. No playing at tournaments isn't the required medium to be able to express your opinion, however, Factual information to back up your claims SHOULD BE. There are plenty of players that are better analyzers of the game than being very good at the game itself.

I now feel like I'm not being taken as seriously as most simply because of the date at which I joined these boards.
There's plenty more places out there in the wide world of the internet that focus on exactly what these forums focus on, too, you know.

While your post date can be related. I'm fairly certain the reason your not being taken seriously is because nothing you said is:

1. Given without any evidence supporting your opinion.
2. Or related to the melee vs brawl balance discussion.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

A bit of advice for Toadsanime and a word for Yuna -

Text walls are useless. People do not finish textwalls. Also, responding to comments directed towards yourself doesn't further debate. There's no real reason for you to respond to a personal comment, Toadsanime.

Yuna - Personally, I have nothing against the lip in final destination. However, I think we can all agree that almost all the neutral stages have repetitive qualities - A flat platform with between 0 and 3 pass-through platforms on top. The only neutral stage with any variety is Pokemon Stadium, and maybe Lylat cruise if three inches of swerving qualifies as variety. That is my reason for wanting neutral stages made in the custom stagebuilder feature.

Now lets not make the discussion personal - that is how people beget the appearance of idiocy and jerkhood.

 

[Yuna]

Arcnatural: Thank you for saving me a few minutes of tedious work.

And, really, Toadsanime, the fact that you think Captain Falcon is pretty much as good as the average Brawl character is proof of that you lack the necessary knowledge, experience and judgment to participate in this debate. The merely fact that you claimed this to begin with disqualifies you. The fact that you still cling to it instead of just conceeding you were wrong, well... hmmm...

It's like me going "Well, this card here is clearly better than that car over there!" despite being proven wrong repeatedly by a multitude of people. I do not own a car, I have no knowledge of the inner workings of cars and I lack the necessary everything to accurate compare two different cars to each other.

But I'm smart, so I don't jump into discussions involving cars.

Yuna - Personally, I have nothing against the lip in final destination. However, I think we can all agree that almost all the neutral stages have repetitive qualities - A flat platform with between 0 and 3 pass-through platforms on top. The only neutral stage with any variety is Pokemon Stadium, and maybe Lylat cruise if three inches of swerving qualifies as variety. That is my reason for wanting neutral stages made in the custom stagebuilder feature.

Irrelevant. Neutral stages are neutral because they are neutral.

Pray tell, how did you ever survive playing on Battlefield in Melee? It was Neutral, after all. For that matter, even Pokémon Stadium had a weird ledge you could get caught under (and you still can be). For teams, we have Kongo Jungle 64. Weird ledges where you can get gimped if you suck doesn't auto-disqualify stages from being Neutral.

Why stop with creating neutral stages in Stage Builder? Let's build Counterpick ones, too! Let's all create the game ourselves next by hacking the moves we don't like/like to nerf/buff them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yuna whatever happened to your Peach avatar?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the lip in FD is akward to say the least but i actually like it sometimes.

on topic:
how would custon stages be made in a neutral way for tourney play other than a few flat blocks and maybe a hovering platform or two? sounds like battle field with no decoration or maybe a moving platform to mimic smashville.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna whatever happened to your Peach avatar?

It's on my desktop. I'm gonna start rotating my avatar from now on. I don't remember when I started using my current one but from now on, I'll switch avatars on Mondays unless I'm too busy or lazy.