Brawl Information Compendium & Social

[sGale]

Okay. ZeRo is a hot topic today

 

[infiniteV115]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4GqTnudhKE&t=2m22s
Why wasn't Dany forced into a ledge slip animation? Or is it a hack/ a PAL difference?

 

[Tesh]

He probably grabbed. Often you have time to cancel your shield into another action before you slide off the platform. Rolling, spotdodging and jumping IIRC will send you up or keep you on the platform. Grabbing will still cause you to slide off, but with no lag or forced tumble because now its just a grab sliding off the platform, not a shield.

After the bair his his shield, there is a sound before his sword swipes. I think its the sound of a whiffed grab, but i dont see anything *shrug*

 

[infiniteV115]

Wow, I think you're right about that actually. I didn't know about that.
And good catch on the grab sound.

 

[teluoborg]

Today I was practicing some Blazblue and P4A Challenge modes, and I was thinking that the timings for some Combos are insanely tight, yet, they have to be mastered in order to get the best reward you can get from them.

I wonder if Brawl players are very lazy because they get enough reward to succeed with much simpler tactics.

The difference is : every goddamn 1-2 frame window tech in Brawl is situational. Regular fighters have frame perfect combos or very precise mechanics that you need to be consistent with because you use them all the time, hell even Melee has some too in L cancel, wavedash and other moonwalks.
But yeah if everyone took the time to be technically decent then the metagame would be so high right now it'd only be legal in Amsterdam.

There is something I am not totally sure about that's bothering me now.
You know when you fastfall, you get hard landing. Does this apply to aerials too? I know it happens with things like Peach fair because it autocancels so you get normal hard landing lag if you fast fall, but with something like GW nair, is the landing lag still 9 frames even if I fastfall? Because I am not 100% sure I sometimes hesitate fastfalling, possibly costing me frames.

You still get 9 frames even if you FF. Peach has a hard landing because by definition an autocanceling is a neutral landing.

 

[infiniteV115]

Is that what autocancelling is? Either 2 or 4 frames depending on whether you didn't or did fastfall (respectively)?

 

[Dekillsage]

The difference is : every goddamn 1-2 frame window tech in Brawl is situational. Regular fighters have frame perfect combos or very precise mechanics that you need to be consistent with because you use them all the time, hell even Melee has some too in L cancel, wavedash and other moonwalks.
But yeah if everyone took the time to be technically decent then the metagame would be so high right now it'd only be legal in Amsterdam.

This
and also doing combos that your opponent can't do anything about is different than playing brawl where both players are always in control(excluding cgs)

Frame data in brawl is kinda ridiculous too. It's nothing like other fighters who have characters with 6 frame jabs and stuff like that. (lol zss 1 frame jab. yoooo falco and peach have 2 frame jabs?!?!)

 

[infiniteV115]

Her entire jab combo is unsafe on hit though, except against a few chars for some reason beyond me
If you're gonna complain about anyone's jab, complain about Squirtle's. His is also frame 1 and the entire combo actually works AFAIK

 

[Tesh]

it doesn't work on everyone even when its full power, once its stale and he is fatigued, its almost as bad as ZSS's

 

[Dekillsage]

Her entire jab combo is unsafe on hit though, except against a few chars for some reason beyond me
If you're gonna complain about anyone's jab, complain about Squirtle's. His is also frame 1 and the entire combo actually works AFAIK

idk about you but I'm not reacting to a 1 frame move on hit
people be mashing to punish that?!?!

 

[Tesh]

if you react properly, ganon and ike probably have the only safe jabs on hit. squirtle, zss, sonic etc. jabs are bad because the most common and quickest reaction (press shield) means the jabs dont link to the final hit and are easily shield grabbed.

most other jabs require something very quick and technical like SDIing way behind them and landing an aeriel, or having to manually SDI down to get your shield up (because good jabs lift people off of the ground)

for some reason, fresh jabs from squirtle dont allow people to shield without SDI, but in the ditto, squirtles can just jab out of each other's jabs almost all the time. i like ZSS better here, just because she has better mixups after forcing you to shield, I think her jab cancel has better cooldown on the 2nd hit or something.

 

[infiniteV115]

Most characters (like Snake) can just hold shield, causing him to PS the 3rd hit. From there you get a free punish with ftilt/utilt/grab and probably some other stuff (it's like -13 on shield and you PS automatically so there's no shield drop lag...)
Mixups like jab1 --> run away/shield/roll are good, but jab1 cancel is -3 on hit and sometimes when I try to do it to Snakes I get ftilted ... ._.
There's also jab2 cancel mixups but that's -7 on hit.

There's also some time for the opponent to do something between the jab2 and jab3 even if she doesn't jab2 cancel (ie even if she's just holding A, doing the jab combo as fast as possible). Marth gets a guaranteed DS if jab2 ever hits him. In the ZSS ditto, ZSS can jab1 to interrupt (it's hilarious and I do it and it's not hard to react to at all)
I hear if Peach SDI's up she gets a free nair when jab2 hits her
iirc nades come out on frame 1 so you can probably just spam neutral B as Snake

etc etc
If ZSS had a 6 frame grab like Falco her jab mixups would be a lot stronger, but...yeah, for her jab game to work the ZSS has to mixup her jab1 cancels and jab2/jab3 timings really well, and even then it's generally an RPS situation where if ZSS wins she gets like <5% and resets the situation or she loses and gets grabbed/takes something that does a lot of damage.

 

[teluoborg]

Is that what autocancelling is? Either 2 or 4 frames depending on whether you didn't or did fastfall (respectively)?

Yes, and as a reminder you also get the hard landing if you fall from higher than your SH height. Meaning you'll get a soft landing if you FH from the ground and land on a platform (character dependant obv), and a hard landing if you SH from a platform and land on the ground.

 

[da K.I.D.]

is that the individual characters SH height or is it some kind of base SH height for all characters.

 

[Heartstring]

if you react properly, ganon and ike probably have the only safe jabs on hit. squirtle, zss, sonic etc. jabs are bad because the most common and quickest reaction (press shield) means the jabs dont link to the final hit and are easily shield grabbed.

most other jabs require something very quick and technical like SDIing way behind them and landing an aeriel, or having to manually SDI down to get your shield up (because good jabs lift people off of the ground)

for some reason, fresh jabs from squirtle dont allow people to shield without SDI, but in the ditto, squirtles can just jab out of each other's jabs almost all the time. i like ZSS better here, just because she has better mixups after forcing you to shield, I think her jab cancel has better cooldown on the 2nd hit or something.

It's also easy enough to get out of Ike's jab on hit. Good SDI up gets you out on the first hit

 

[Tesh]

Yea, but I'm talking about safety on hit, not how well they combo. Most jab1s are like negative on hit, but they give some kind of positional advantage and are too fast to react perfectly to.

Ike's jab might actually be safe no matter where you SDI.

 

[Heartstring]

OH right. you meant like that. Yeah Ike's jab is always safe like that.
Also v115. There's only a small section of snake's jab1 that will allow you to powershield the 3rd hit. 1 of the 4 hitboxes does that

 

[infiniteV115]

I was talking about ZSS' jab. When I said this

Most characters (like Snake) can just hold shield, causing him to PS the 3rd hit.

I meant that most chars can just hold shield and they'll PS the 3rd hit of ZSS' jab. I just mentioned Snake specifically as a character that can PS it cause Dekillsage was complaining about her jab being frame 1 and he plays Snake.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It's also easy enough to get out of Ike's jab on hit. Good SDI up gets you out on the first hit

this is also highly dependent on what character you play. For someone like the ICs, they can get out of it rather easily (but then theyre above ike... not a good place to be) Sonic is kind of average in difficulty. And Fox... I feel like if I get hit with Ike jab 1 when I played with san, its like a guaranteed 30 damage.

 

[Heartstring]

I was talking about ZSS' jab. When I said this

I meant that most chars can just hold shield and they'll PS the 3rd hit of ZSS' jab. I just mentioned Snake specifically as a character that can PS it cause Dekillsage was complaining about her jab being frame 1 and he plays Snake.

Oh okay. I thought you were referring to snake's jab combo. My bad

this is also highly dependent on what character you play. For someone like the ICs, they can get out of it rather easily (but then theyre above ike... not a good place to be) Sonic is kind of average in difficulty. And Fox... I feel like if I get hit with Ike jab 1 when I played with san, its like a guaranteed 30 damage.

Yeah. Fox is by far and away the easiest one to hurt with jabs though in his case you really should SDI away instead, it limits how many times he can jab you before you're out of range

 

[da K.I.D.]

but if he does jab2, it moves him forward, which pretty much negates my SDIing away.

 

[Heartstring]

Yeah. Like I said. certainly hard for fox to do anything. but the SDI away negates how much one jab combo can do. which is always important

 

[da K.I.D.]

im confused, how exactly does sdi'ing away get you out sooner if hes moving forward while hes jabbing you? in my experience sdi'ing away doesnt do anything but put you close to the edge of the stage and mess up your DI for when he does finally hit you with the jab 3.

 

[Heartstring]

To move forward. He needs to do Jab2. if you can SDI both hits well (kinda hard I know) then you've moved much further than ike does with his jab movement. If you're really good. Then the jab3 won't even hit!

It's all kinda relative to where you are when he connects with the initial jab though. If he's spaced it, SDI-ing away is easy enough. If he's at point blank then SDI behind is the better option. if it's mid-range. then you kinda have to take the damage, for the reasons you've stated

 

[infiniteV115]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQtouX6gBM
Okay so I started watching this video and it appears that Samus can platform cancel in the middle of her zair
Does this apply to all aerials? Or just all zairs? Or just Samus' zair?

 

[Heartstring]

Just tested it out. Works with Tlink, Link and Lucas too. So I guess it's universal to tethers

 

[Tesh]

Its any Zair, this technique was apparently unknown in NA before we saw videos of YB, but all zairs can do it at any point during the zair AFAIK.

Its really cool, especially for link imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iAYE6IRJbU&feature=channel&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFemMjg4tMQ&list=UL6iAYE6IRJbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8KfgsOmfc&list=ULBFemMjg4tMQ

Imo, its kind of garbage for Toon Link and obviously Lucas for attacking, but whats really useful is that you can do a rising airdodge, turn it into a zair then laglessly platform cancel. A lagless rising airdodge is like....pretty useful imo. It also solves a floatiness issue for Samus, Toon Link and Lucas as far as SHFF aerials. Helps get off the ledge safely too.

Unfortunately, only 1 remotely good character has a Zair.

edit: also makes it nearly impossible to screw up platform cancel timing

 

[infiniteV115]

edit: also makes it nearly impossible to screw up platform cancel timing

Why is that?

 

[Tesh]

Well, if you are awful at timing platform cancels like myself, you will find yourself inputting your aerial/dodge too early and doing something awful. If you are zairing/airdodging, you can't start another move obviously so the timing is always right if you just mash (which is how i made those videos).

 

[Dre89]

Scrub question, what's the difference between zoning and camping for a character that has no projectiles?

 

[infiniteV115]

This is how I like to define them

Spacing - Distancing yourself from the opponent while attacking them so as to hit with the optimal hitboxes and/or at the optimal range.
Zoning - Keeping yourself at the optimal distance from your opponent (I guess with this definition, spacing is a form of zoning)
Camping - Staying in roughly the same spot with little to no net locomotion/movement, usually at a large distance from your opponent. May include shooting lasers or throwing eggplants. (I only define camping like this because it obviously comes from...you know...irl camping, where you just stay in the same place outdoors for a few days)

 

[da K.I.D.]

I can give you an example

Im sonic (no projectiles) fighting a snake.

Spacing is using the maximum range of your moves.
If Im spacing, I would be trying to hit snake with the very tip of my bair hit box as its my longest ranged move. Even though this is still a bad idea, because even if im spacing perfectly, snake has way more range than me and is just going to blow through my spaced bairs with his greater ranged up tilt f tilt and dash attack.

Zoning is keeping yourself or your opponent is a specific place or area, in relation to your opponent, for a specific purpose.
If Im zoning, im taking care to stay outside of snakes f tilt range so that a. i dont get hit by the 21% damage move and b. if he does try it, I can run in an punish the whiff lag.

Camping is just overall defensive play, typically couple with throwing projectiles at the opponent from a very safe distance. Most of the time when playing defensive, the safest place you can be is the opposite side of the stage. and usually the main idea of camping is not to win by time out, but to use the fear of the time out to force the opponent into making a mistake that you can punish to end the game sooner.
If Im camping snake, then im just running away from him, probably jumping around to avoid his explosives and trying to get me to attack him with his laggy, punishable aerials, or grenades that I can throw back at him. something brash that will allow me to punish him and get the kill.

 

[Dre89]

Ok thanks. It sounds like certain characters would intertwine them. Like I'd imagine TL's zoning and camping would be kind of similar.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes theres definitely some interchange.

 

[teluoborg]

Well camping and approaching are both part of zoning.

Zoning can be defined by using placement to make your options more effective and/or your opponent's options less effective.

So if your character has a strong projectile game you want to make the most of it but that also means a lot more than that.

 

[Dre89]

Scrub question, can disjointed hitboxes be grabbed? What I mean is that the character extends the disjoint (like a Marth fsmash for example) and the opponent's grab only reaches the extended disjoint and not the hurtbox.

 

[-LzR-]

A grab connects with hurtboxes, so the answer is no.

 

[infiniteV115]

No, disjoints can't be grabbed. For the opponent to get grabbed, there has to be some contact/overlap between the grabber's grabbox and the opponent's hurtbox. Same goes for hitting the opponent, hitting shields, etc.

 

[BlueXenon]

Does move priority exist?

 

[-LzR-]

Not really, but it still does. Priority in Brawl is mostly used to measure the hitbox/hurtbox ratio of a move and how long your hurtbox is exposed when doing the move.