Brawl Information Compendium & Social

[Jabejazz]

Then that's just stupid. Another thing to show you that Sakurai was trying his hardest to make the game less competitive by limiting options.

Jump cancel existed in Melee buddy. Also, jump cancel, if anything, is a technique that actually enhances the competitive aspect of the game.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Jump cancel existed in Melee buddy.

Was it now? Thank you for correcting me on that. Well I never had a problem with rising Uairs Melee since there's no buffering. I also felt that the line between rising Uair and Smash was pretty thick in Melee since you had to dash cancel (crouch) to do a Smash out of dash.

Also, jump cancel, if anything, is a technique that actually enhances the competitive aspect of the game.

How so <:I ? I could swing at that for Melee, but with Brawl I feel like it gimps gameplay.

 

[Jabejazz]

Was it now? Thank you for correcting me on that. Well I never had a problem with rising Uairs Melee since there's no buffering. I also felt that the line between rising Uair and Smash was pretty thick in Melee since you had to dash cancel (crouch) to do a Smash out of dash.
How so <:I ? I could swing at that for Melee, but with Brawl I feel like it gimps gameplay.

For one, I know that with Dedede, I can guarantee a buffered jump-canceled up-smash out of my down throw on a few characters.
Back in Melee, you could jump-cancel grabs, which translates to doing standing grab during a dash, a.k.a. grabs with greater range.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

For one, I know that with Dedede, I can guarantee a buffered jump-canceled up-smash out of my down throw on a few characters.

Doesn't that like slide DDD forward while he Usmashes? Or am I wrong?

Back in Melee, you could jump-cancel grabs, which translates to doing standing grab during a dash, a.k.a. grabs with greater range.

Woohwoohwooh hold the phone. I Downstick>Grab to stand grab during dash...there's something I'm not getting here.

 

[Jabejazz]

Doesn't that like slide DDD forward while he Usmashes? Or am I wrong?

It does look like that yes. A buffered dash + upsmash would look the same, but is slower and won't work.

Woohwoohwooh hold the phone. I Downstick>Grab to stand grab during dash...there's something I'm not getting here.

Dash ->Jump->Grab right after. The jump stops your dash, allowing your grab to have the range of a standing one.

 

[sGale]

JCing also allows for Up-B/Smash out of shield.

 

[smashkng]

Are you guys sure you can't buffer Uair with C stick? From my experience it looks possible by pressing jump, releasing the jump button and after C stick up.

 

[infiniteV115]

You can sh uair with the C-stick but you can't buffer it. You'd have to press C-stick when the jumpsquat frames are over, pretty sure.

Maybe it works with the C-stick set to tilt rather than smash, but when it's set to smash I'm pretty sure it doesn't work.

 

[Heartstring]

Jump Cancelling is what allows bowser to NOT have a -4 in every matchup ever.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

JCing also allows for Up-B/Smash out of shield.

Is it faster than shield drop>Usmash?

Also, I seem to be getting a lot of different definitions of jump cancel. First I thought it was when Fox and Falco jump out of shine (Melee, P:M), but know I'm getting a lot of different things. Can some one define what Jump Cancel is to me, so I can get all this straight?

 

[Jabejazz]

Is it faster than shield drop>Usmash?

Yes.

Can some one define what Jump Cancel is to me, so I can get all this straight?

Canceling something with a jump or canceling your jump with something.
In case of JC'd up-smashes or grabs, you would cancel your jump as well, but you're still canceling your dash with your jump.

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Then what is it called [In Melee/P:M] when you cancel dash with crouch? Crouch canceling? I thought that was to shorten the hitstun/lag of an attack.

So what are all the uses of this in Brawl? The part in this video where he slides across the ground with Usmash is jump canceling right?

 

[Jabejazz]

Then what is it called [In Melee/P:M] when you cancel dash with crouch? Crouch canceling? I thought that was to shorten the hitstun/lag of an attack.

Crouch-cancel is indeed the term used when you're crouching in order to reduce knockback/hitstun.
The term you're looking for is dash-canceling.

So what are all the uses of this in Brawl? The part in this video where he slides across the ground with Usmash is jump canceling right?

The one at 2:05ish where the input shows Right - Down - Right - Y - C Up is indeed a jump-cancel.

Also, to be more specific about the jump-cancel definitions :
Canceling something with a jump. "something" here refers to a shield, a dash or a shine, like you mentioned above.
Canceling your jump with something. "Something" refers to an attack, grab, upB, upSmash and item throws. For the latter, it allows you to throw the item as if you were standing still, giving your throw more power/range (aka smash throw).

 

[infiniteV115]

Is it faster than shield drop>Usmash?

Also, I seem to be getting a lot of different definitions of jump cancel. First I thought it was when Fox and Falco jump out of shine (Melee, P:M), but know I'm getting a lot of different things. Can some one define what Jump Cancel is to me, so I can get all this straight?

In Brawl, when each character does a grounded jump, the first few frames of their jump are still on the ground. These frames are known as the 'jumpsquat' frames, similar to how you would bend your knees before you jump. The length of this varies for each character.
Apparently the info I'm about to show you is incorrect but since I'm just using it for an example, here's the jumpsquat duration for every char in the game (taken from this thread).

Spoiler

Alright guys, I went into BrawlBox and got how long each animation took. Here is my findings:
JumpSquat Frame Data:

captain - 6
dedede - 5
diddy - 5
donkey - 7
falco - 5
fox - 5
gamewatch - 6
ganon - 6
ike - 8
kirby - 5
koopa - 9
link - 8
lucario - 6
lucas - 6
luigi - 6
mario - 6
marth - 6
metaknight - 5
ness - 6
peach - 6
pikachu - 5
pikmin - 6
pit - 6
pokefushigisou - 6
pokelizardon - 8
pokezenigame - 5
popo - 5
purin - 6
robot - 6
samus - 5
sheik - 5
snake - 10
sonic - 8
szerosuit - 5
toonlink - 8
wario - 7
wolf - 7
yoshi - 7
zelda - 7

Remember this is the length of the animation, so when you are calculating the first actionable frame, you have to add one.

Let's take ZSS as an example. She has a 5 frame jumpsquat. Since there's a 1-frame delay between input and output in brawl, this means that if she inputs a jump on frame x, frames (x+1) to (x+5) are all jumpsquat frames, where she's still on the ground. Frames (x+6) and onwards, she's in the air.
To repeat the same thing in a different fashion, if she presses the jump button on frame 1, then on frames 2-6 she's in her jumpsquat, and on frame 7 onwards she's in the air.

As for the jump-cancels, if ZSS inputs an usmash, upB or item toss during her jumpsquat (I'm actually not sure if it applies for the very last frame of jumpsquat, but for the other frames it definitely does), she will perform a jump-cancelling (or JC) usmash/upB/item-toss. This also works if she inputs it on the same frame on which she inputted her jump (frame x aka frame 1), but it has to be AFTER the jump input.

The JC-whatever will begin 1 frame after you input it. So if you input jump on frame x (1) and you input upB on frame x+2 (3), the upB will begin on frame x+3 (4).
Every char can JCusmash, JCupB and JCitemtoss, I'm pretty sure.

Yes, jump-cancelling your usmash and upB OoS is faster than dropping shield and then doing them. You can jump immediately OoS and you can cancel your jump immediately with an usmash/upB, so theoretically you can be shielding on frame x (1) and then your JCusmash/upB can start on frame x+1 (2).
Dropping your shield adds 7 frames of lag (17 for Yoshi), so it's slower.
Item toss I'm pretty sure is the same regardless of item toss OoS or JCitemtoss OoS because you don't need to drop your shield to item toss OoS. So the JC isn't necessary.

I don't know too much about Melee cause I don't play it but I'm pretty sure it works the same way, other than
-You can JCgrab in Melee
-The JCshine is a jump-cancelled shine (ie cancelling your shine with a jump), not a jump-cancelling shine (cancelling your jump with shine). It's equivalent to jumping out of your shield...you cancel your shield/shine by jumping out of it. Everything mentioned above about Brawl is jump-cancelling stuff, not jump-cancelled stuff.

You're better off asking in the Melee subforum about jump-cancelling stuff in their game though, again I don't play it so I'm not sure about the differences.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The only amendment ill make to what infinite said is that fox and falco are stupid in melee because they can hit you with the shine, which is a frame 1 attack, and then Jump cancel out of the shine, AND THEN cancel the jump with a shine while they are still on the ground. So they can jump cancel their shines in BOTH senses of the term. If you have ungodly fast hands, you can repeat this process infinitely. Although personally, the most Ive ever seen someone multishine before leaving the ground was 7 times.

 

[-LzR-]

Actually they are stupid because it's a frame 1 invincible move that covers almost their whole body while reflecting projectiles and being jumpcancelable on like frame 4 and because of that Falco can pretty much take your whole stock for a single hit with this frame 1 invincible move.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I meant to say ONE OF the reasons theyre stupid. its clearly not the only reason, by a long shot.

 

[Heartstring]

This being a brawl thread, You really confused me with the shine thing for a second XD

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

What is EIDI and how do I do it?

 

[infiniteV115]

I've never heard of EIDI O.o

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Believe it stands for extra inch di. Believe it has something to do with the grab release on the psi children but not sure.

 

[-LzR-]

So how do you "di" from a grab release?

 

[NickRiddle]

Ness and Lucas sometimes slide a little further, or a little less far. Shaky somehow knows how to do it semi-consistently to avoid Snake's f-tilt after getting GRed.
Go ask him.

 

[-LzR-]

Sounds interesting. If I find out I could tell our EB kid players about it, it's a big deal if you can do it semiconsistently.

 

[teluoborg]

It's about when you release during the pummel. Go search the DDD boards the answer lies in a '09 guide.

 

[infiniteV115]

I started playing Ness casually against some friends who play Marth for fun (I know it sounds crazy) and yeah I noticed that if you hold away during the ground release you fall further away forcing Marth to move to get the regrab.

 

[fox67890]

So, about that thing you see ZSS mains sometimes do...

How does one foxtrot> (turn-around) Dsmash? Do they usually buffer it someway, or do they just wait for the Foxtrot to end and then turn-around dsmash?

You can kinda see another variation of it with Fox doing a utilt instead after a Foxtrot here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkHBCGaBf4&feature=player_detailpage&list=PLD15B86DBBB7C4AB4#t=9s

 

[infiniteV115]

There are 2 things you could be talking about

1: Foxtrot --> turnaround --> dsmash, which is just done exactly how it sounds like. You foxtrot (ie flick analog forward) and I guess towards the latter half of the foxtrot's animation, you hold back on the analog (if you press back too early you'll dash dance obviously). Then once the foxtrot animation is over, you should still be holding back which will cause you to turn around, then just hit the C-stick down for the dsmash (you can do it manually too but obviously C-stick is easier). Again, if you press C-stick before the end of the foxtrot animation you'll just dash attack.

2: True pivot: Flick analog twice so you do two foxtrots rather than just one, but immediately after the 2nd foxtrot you hit the analog back (this causes you to 'dash dance' the 2nd foxtrot) and then hit the C-stick down immediately after hitting back on the analog. This has a much stricter time window and is pretty hard to do consistently, but it comes out faster than the first thing I mentioned.
So TL;DR, foxtrot forward, do a dash dance (forward and then back) and then cancel the back part of the dash dance with a dsmash. I believe this is also referred to as a dash dance pivot cancel.
I don't think anyone actually does this in tournament, it's too hard to do consistently and if you screw it up you dash attack instead...so anything you see a ZSS doing is probably the first one, unless it's like a TAS vid or something.

 

[fox67890]

Thank you~
I actually forgot the second way even existed. Regardless, I'm going to try implement the first method into some options. Thanks again!

 

[ぱみゅ]

Today I was practicing some Blazblue and P4A Challenge modes, and I was thinking that the timings for some Combos are insanely tight, yet, they have to be mastered in order to get the best reward you can get from them.

I wonder if Brawl players are very lazy because they get enough reward to succeed with much simpler tactics.

 

[-LzR-]

There is something I am not totally sure about that's bothering me now.
You know when you fastfall, you get hard landing. Does this apply to aerials too? I know it happens with things like Peach fair because it autocancels so you get normal hard landing lag if you fast fall, but with something like GW nair, is the landing lag still 9 frames even if I fastfall? Because I am not 100% sure I sometimes hesitate fastfalling, possibly costing me frames.

 

[Jabejazz]

Today I was practicing some Blazblue and P4A Challenge modes, and I was thinking that the timings for some Combos are insanely tight, yet, they have to be mastered in order to get the best reward you can get from them.

I wonder if Brawl players are very lazy because they get enough reward to succeed with much simpler tactics.

Inputs are much more strict in the traditional fighters, it's true. So in theory, it's another layer of complexity added to the game.
But it's definitely not that big of a layer. A few hours in training mode is usually enough for me when playing KoFXIII to figure out decent punishing combos. And what's cool is that this very combo I just found will work to punish ANYBODY in the cast.

Thing is, Brawl doesn't really have the notion of combo since something that works on a character might not work on the rest of the cast.
And because of that, I feel like learning the match-ups in Smash in general is slightly harder than in traditional fighters because of how differently every character reacts to a single given attack. And to me, match-ups are always harder to learn than inputting combos.

In the end, I think it evens out.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's not even about combos lol
I was talking about inputs as a whole.

Look at ZeRo for example.
He has close to no experience (let's not count WiFi, as that could as well be considered a different game), yet he put a lot of effort on his techskill, speed and distances, and pretty much only by abusing that he got really far. Heck, even he himself says that his success is not talent, just fruits of his hard work.

My point being, if more players around the world would try to advance their game as much as he did, I wonder how our metagame would be...

 

[Jabejazz]

It's not even about combos lol
I was talking about inputs as a whole.

Combos/punishes cover rougly 90% of inputs. As for spacing and pokes, those are footsies, and are a lot more related to matchup knowledge than manual dexterity.
ZeRo has extensive matchup knowledge, along with great techskill, making him an amazing player. And for all his hard work, he totally deserves all the success he's had.

I wonder if Brawl players are very lazy because they get enough reward to succeed with much simpler tactics.

My point being, if more players around the world would try to advance their game as much as he did, I wonder how our metagame would be...

2 very different points. First one was covered in my previous post : Smash isn't "simpler" because of inputs because we get additional matchup information to grasp. Also inputs are all about muscle memory. Whether it's DownB or QCB+P, HCF+PK is irrelevant, both are learned the same way. The only difference is probably the demotivation factor that kicks in with some players when they see a combo that's 3-lines long of inputs.

Second one is up to speculation. The same thing could be asked about any other fighting game. You make it sound like the Smash community is the only one filled with bad players.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ok, I think we missed a step here.
I saw this posted:

2: True pivot: Flick analog twice so you do two foxtrots rather than just one, but immediately after the 2nd foxtrot you hit the analog back (this causes you to 'dash dance' the 2nd foxtrot) and then hit the C-stick down immediately after hitting back on the analog. This has a much stricter time window and is pretty hard to do consistently, but it comes out faster than the first thing I mentioned.
So TL;DR, foxtrot forward, do a dash dance (forward and then back) and then cancel the back part of the dash dance with a dsmash. I believe this is also referred to as a dash dance pivot cancel.
I don't think anyone actually does this in tournament, it's too hard to do consistently and if you screw it up you dash attack instead...so anything you see a ZSS doing is probably the first one, unless it's like a TAS vid or something.

And thought my ramble was appropiate to the situation.
The timing might be pretty strict, but as a technique to be used seldom on really specific situations (and differently depending on the character a different attack would come out of it) it would harm nobody to learn it. But so far I haven't seen anyone using it.
Just to give an example, even now in the MUChartv3 discussion some people claim that DDD is not a MU as hard as it should be because many DDDs have not mastered JCUsmash (which isn't even hard). While in the other hand a couple Marths mastered the GR>Spike on MetaKnight and that allowed them to get great results.

I know that knowing the Matchup is important, but again, at top level of Traditional FGs pretty much everyone has their techskill down and their combos mastered, and after doing their homework comes the matchups, readings and measure how well they play at neutral. I'll concede that Brawl neutral is much more complex though.
And it's not because I think Brawl is the only lazy metagame (used to play Yugioh with kids that look for Top TIer Decks on internet and have been reading Smogon, my hopes on competition are not exactly high), but it's the one I know and detect that their top players have many many flawls.


Now, you are right, I am just especulating and pretty much only rambling about what would happen with Brawl 8and Brawl only) if everyone at top level had their techskill, item play and knowledge on point.

 

[infiniteV115]

Trust me this is significantly harder than a JCusmash (idk about you but JCusmashes are easy as ****). True pivot dsmashes or tilts are hard, but true pivot usmash/fsmashes are easy.

 

[KillerAP]

Trust me this is significantly harder than a JCusmash (idk about you but JCusmashes are easy as ****). True pivot dsmashes or tilts are hard, but true pivot usmash/fsmashes are easy.

jale

 

[da K.I.D.]

I feel like pointing out, that the VAST majority of zero's ascent to god hood so to speak was that he has exorbitant amounts of time to get to a certain level from playing people on wifi from chile (which sounds like a priveledged situation to begin with. and then he had what boils down to the means to travel to a different continent to do nothing but play smash with the best players in the best regions of arguably the most heavily stacked country for two entire summers two years in a row. Theres very few players that couldnt hit top level with those kinds of circumstances. thats less laziness on everyone elses part and more just people having lives and priorities outside of smash.

 

[sGale]

Wrong thread?

 

[da K.I.D.]

no just a late response to kyokoros post about zero.