Brawl+ ideas by Yes!

[_Yes!_]

Hey guys,

First I wanna say thanks for letting me into WBR. I have a few ideas spread across the board so I'd rather put them all in one post than lots.

First, some general ideas (my friend sneak came up with these but they're all good ideas to me):

When a character doesn't have any jumps left, maybe have a way to indicate it? It isn't broken since the edge guarder and the one being edge guarded both know. This would eliminate loss of a stock because the player doesn't know whether or not he had his jump.

Fast falling B moves? This is just to speed up overall gameplay. Characters that could benefit from this: Fox, Falco, ZSS, Pikachu, Diddy, Ivysaur, Wolf, Mario, Luigi, etc.

Crouch cancelling? I don't know if this was previously discussed, just throwing it out there.

Secondly, character specific ideas for helping out the low tiers (or at least those I think are low tier):

Sonic: Needs to kill better, or at least combo better.

Samus: Needs to kill better; I suggest making the Nair a kill move like it used to be in melee. Bair and dsmash should be kill moves too imo.

Captain Falcon: This poor guy gets chain grabbed, combo'd, out ranged/out prioritized/both, by most of the cast. His combos are nice but they hardly compensate for his faults. I suggest reducing knockback to make him combo better, and/or adjusting something to keep him from getting combo'd so hard. He loses every priority battle .

The heavies were already addressed by Spam so I won't mention them.

Thirdly, characters that don't suck, but could use some minor adjustments.

Marth's upB: It's true that this move was too powerful, but it was nerfed way too hard. Not being able to kill Squirtle at 150% (as vex proved in tourney at BTL) is pretty ludicrous. The only way Marth can kill is a hard to land tipper and gimping, but since his recovery is meh the latter option is rather risky.

Squirtle's up air: This move is way too powerful. Being able to kill mario at 110% with uthrow uair on Luigi's Mansion, one of the highest ceiling stages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObbHxg-1_M&feature=channel_page#t=2m26s

Kirby: I've heard kirby has zero to deaths? I can't say this for sure though.

That's all I have for now. Hope you guys like my input.

 

[leafgreen386]

When a character doesn't have any jumps left, maybe have a way to indicate it? It isn't broken since the edge guarder and the one being edge guarded both know. This would eliminate loss of a stock because the player doesn't know whether or not he had his jump.

Eh... I don't know what kind of indicator you'd use, and you should know when you've used your jump, anyway.

Fast falling B moves? This is just to speed up overall gameplay. Characters that could benefit from this: Fox, Falco, ZSS, Pikachu, Diddy, Ivysaur, Wolf, Mario, Luigi, etc.

I wouldn't have anything against this. We've even discussed it before a long time ago, but the code was never made.

Crouch cancelling? I don't know if this was previously discussed, just throwing it out there.

We've discussed this several times before and have continually come back to it doing more harm than good. Crouch canceling was known for destroying matchups in melee; it took some characters' only safe moves and made them unsafe until very high percents, while also allowing characters like falco to pull off things like CC shine, leading directly into complete ****. It would encourage some characters to play even campier than they do now and also require us to completely re-examine the balance we've already established.

The character specific stuff would prob be better if you took it up in the irc and/or the character specific threads, since that's a bit more likely for it to actually get done.

 

[Shell]

I don't know if FFing b-moves would be of much use without a reduction of lag. Otherwise, it'll usually remain better for Falco to SHDL, Mario to SH or FH and remain mobile, etc. Overall it could buff the projectile game, which is why it would best be paired with the introduction of PS reflecting...

Ryoko and I were discussing different projectile countermeasures, and he suggested (and I agreed) that PSing projectiles would be good as long as it reflects them at a reduced speed and possibly damage, while the shield takes normal damage during reflects instead of none. This could make up for the relative ease of PSing.

I agree that Marth's Up-B could be a little un-nerfed, but he still could use a few more nerfs to his overall character anyways. Perhaps we could lower his damage slightly, inrease his hitstun (if/when possible in the new engine) and then return his Up-B to moderate kill potential (Mario middle of FD @ 130ish with DI).

 

[Magus420]

Not crouch canceling, but I would like the idea of making crouching do a bit more than what it currently does (halves hitlag on the defender) so it actually becomes an option worth using sometimes.

Actually, part of CCing is in Brawl. It still has you take 1/2 hitlag if you're hit while in a full crouching state. However, the 2 most important differences are that the crouching state no longer reduces launch speed (the part that makes it work at higher damages), and ASDI down on upwards trajectories no longer cancels stun with the landing animation (the actual cancel part).

Personally, I wouldn't mind it being turned into something at least somewhat useful since intentionally taking a hit to get halved hitlag on an already extremely reduced amount of hitlag does pretty much nothing now and is basically useless in B+ with no strategic value. Not sure what that something could be though.

What the heck are you gonna do with 1/2 the hitstun? SDI less?

You begin moving before the opponent does. It shifts the advantage on you from being hit towards your favor by the number of hitlag frames removed and can mess up certain setups off that attack. Very situational before in vBrawl, but now with the added hitstun and way less hitlag it shaving off maybe 2-3 frames from your opponent's advantage on their attack really is compeletely useless which is my point.

It's an untapped and currently useless mechanic that imo could be turned into something decent and interesting to add a bit of depth without completely changing the game like Melee style CCing would. Maybe something like reduce the hitlag (hitlag not hitstun) to almost nothing so you'd get a couple more frames out of it to be comparable to the vBrawl version in that regard, and if/when character specific hitstun becomes possible raise their division constant on that hit lower the hitstun multiplier for that hit so they are stunned for a reduced amount of time but are launched the same distance. Maybe also reduce damage from the hit?

The part of crouch canceling in Melee that actually made it so powerful was the fact that stun was canceled completely when ASDIing upward trajectories down into the ground. I don't think the idea of a crouch-based tactic should be dismissed due to how it worked before when crouch canceling without the cancel is completely different. Try CCing spikes/meteors in Melee where the cancel aspect doesn't apply. It functions completely differently without it.

I imagine you could even make it more potent on the characters that could use it more/have slower counterhits like Bowser.

Crouch Toughness/Fortifying ftw imo.

 

[_Yes!_]

PS reflecting isn't a good idea imo. It's too easy to do in brawl unless you guys can change that too o.O make it 1 frame like melee and I'd be fine with it.

 

[Magus420]

PS reflecting isn't a good idea imo. It's too easy to do in brawl unless you guys can change that too o.O make it 1 frame like melee and I'd be fine with it.

It's actually 1 frame in B+ and 2 frames in Melee.

 

[_Yes!_]

Why nerf marth overall? He's so overrated He's not broken at all.

dammit magus stop knowing everything >.<

 

[CT Chia]

I do not think Falcon is bad at all and CERTAINLY not low tier. His combos definitely make up for his faults. Look at ICs in Brawl. They can have a world of trouble, yet their 0-deaths have helped them out immensely, and look, they're top tier.

Falcon's combos are simply disastrous. They are insane. And he's not that poor in other areas as well. You make him sound like hes useless. Not every character has to be perfectly defensive. He's all about the big risk, big reward. That's how Falcon rolls

I like fast falling B moves.

Jump indicator is just awkward and not really needed.

 

[_Yes!_]

wtf are you doing in nj chibo! gtfo! lol jk jk...

Falcon has horrid priority though. It'd be nice to see him beat out some moves.

 

[GHNeko]

I've wanted to give Falcon some Brawl+ tools to help him deal with match ups that barely exististed in Melee ie defensive/camp based strats.

Nothing to balance it out, but something to at least help him a bit.

Its like giving the guy a swiss army knife. :V

 

[JCaesar]

I don't know if FFing b-moves would be of much use without a reduction of lag. Otherwise, it'll usually remain better for Falco to SHDL, Mario to SH or FH and remain mobile, etc. Overall it could buff the projectile game, which is why it would best be paired with the introduction of PS reflecting...

Ryoko and I were discussing different projectile countermeasures, and he suggested (and I agreed) that PSing projectiles would be good as long as it reflects them at a reduced speed and possibly damage, while the shield takes normal damage during reflects instead of none. This could make up for the relative ease of PSing.

I agree that Marth's Up-B could be a little un-nerfed, but he still could use a few more nerfs to his overall character anyways. Perhaps we could lower his damage slightly, inrease his hitstun (if/when possible in the new engine) and then return his Up-B to moderate kill potential (Mario middle of FD @ 130ish with DI).

I agree with all of this 100%

And yeah Falcon is pretty meh. Could we make his nair disjointed to give it better priority? It would make it a little easier to start his killer combos. He needs something.

I know this will be controversial, but if we can get fastfall specials, I'd like to remove Falco's SHDL. I discussed this with Thunderhorse, one of the better Falco+ mains, and he agrees with me. Being able to fire 2 lasers in one SH doesn't help his approach game at all. Single lagless lasers work just as well for that. All SHDLs do is make him a better camper, and completely shut down the taller/slower characters (who, I believe, we're trying to help right now).

Falco has always been a solid character in B+ and we still gave him a pretty hefty buff with his new shine (which I support btw).

If we get reflecting PSing, I may retract that suggestion though.

 

[GHNeko]

Even with reflectng PSing, we shouldnt give falco SHFF Laser.


If the Falco mains want SHFF, the whole lot of them are going to have to fight for it and at the most, they're going to have to trade it off.

As for Marth...

ffffff can this guy get some tourney time before we nerf him AGAIN!?

 

[_Yes!_]

Marth doesn't deserve a nerf. He's one of the most overrated characters I've ever seen. In fact after watching Cape's Ivysaur vs Gonzo's Kirby I'd say Ivysaur should be nerfed a little. Razor leaf does 6-8 damage and is as fast as Falco's laser? Come on guys...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv_xn2UAghE&feature=channel

 

[VietGeek]

ffffff can this guy get some tourney time before we nerf him AGAIN!?

So I heard DB was nerfed to the point where the only combination anyone should use is the neutral red ones...all the time.

Imo Falcon needs like a bigger bair and/or nair. Brawl is the game about bears bairs and his is good but lacks in reach. Typically I see Falcons jumping around trying to get that holy dair to start something because his other aerials are very lackluster in getting him that momentum he needs to offset how horrid he is in other areas.

I'm on the fence with Falco's laser game.

 

[GHNeko]

Lol BtL. The leaf was reduced from that space.

And the leaf doesn't have the same priority as Falco's lasers.


AND the distance is limited, unlike the laser which is unlimited (Can travel from one side of WWR off screen to the other side offscreen)


EDIT: Yea. The best choice is usually neutral DB until around 15-25% percent, then it swithes to Up/Neutral, all neutral.

DB down is STILL unsafe. I'm going to have to fix the move myself to unbreak the move. DIing away allows them to walk out and punish you if you connect with it.

A slightly disjointed nair/uair are what I want for Falcon, something to help him deal with campy characters and projectile chars. He didnt have this much of a problem in Melee because only 2 top tiers had projectiles with stun, and Shiek's was lackluster as **** so it didnt really matter THAT much against falcon. :V

This time around, there are so many more characters with projectiles that matter to Falcon, so he needs some way to deal, but not overcome without a nice chunk of skill.

 

[_Yes!_]

lol if It got nerfed then yay for nerfing Razor Leaf.

From youtube:

Nackers69: ivysaur: tigershot tigershot tigershot!

^^This is hilarious...

Sorry guys I'll pay more attention to the nightly builds. It'd be hard to see them in effect since I don't have a wii so please bear with me.

 

[GHNeko]

Just read the changelist. :V

 

[leafgreen386]

EDIT: Yea. The best choice is usually neutral DB until around 15-25% percent, then it swithes to Up/Neutral, all neutral.

DB down is STILL unsafe. I'm going to have to fix the move myself to unbreak the move. DIing away allows them to walk out and punish you if you connect with it.

Uh... I know the angles were screwed up before, but it still has that problem even when the only thing changed about the move is its damage? Seriously? Because if that's the case, then I highly doubt it ever worked correctly.

A slightly disjointed nair/uair are what I want for Falcon, something to help him deal with campy characters and projectile chars. He didnt have this much of a problem in Melee because only 2 top tiers had projectiles with stun, and Shiek's was lackluster as **** so it didnt really matter THAT much against falcon. :V

This time around, there are so many more characters with projectiles that matter to Falcon, so he needs some way to deal, but not overcome without a nice chunk of skill.

Sheik ***** falcon in melee lol

Anyway, falcon didn't have nearly as much trouble against projectile camping in melee because he was simply fast enough that it didn't matter. Between PS reflect and his great speed, he could get around most any character trying to projectile camp him, and he could do it long before the projectiles became effective. Brawl+ isn't as fast of a game as melee was (in general), which is largely the reason falcon isn't as good in brawl+ as he was in melee.

 

[GHNeko]

Uh... I know the angles were screwed up before, but it still has that problem even when the only thing changed about the move is its damage? Seriously? Because if that's the case, then I highly doubt it ever worked correctly.

If that's the case, then something should be done about it imo. :V
Ill tinker with it when I get back tonight.

Sheik ***** falcon in melee lol

Anyway, falcon didn't have nearly as much trouble against projectile camping in melee because he was simply fast enough that it didn't matter. Between PS reflect and his great speed, he could get around most any character trying to projectile camp him, and he could do it long before the projectiles became effective. Brawl+ isn't as fast of a game as melee was (in general), which is largely the reason falcon isn't as good in brawl+ as he was in melee.

Which is why we should give him like a manbag of ways to deal with something like this. As I've said before, you put Melee Falcon into Brawl+ and he'll have the same issues as Brawl+ falcon.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I agree that Falcon's Nair and Bair could be a bit more disjointed. Like VietG said, landing that Dair to start his combos can be troublesome against so many characters.

I also agree so much with removing Falco's SHDL for SHFF laser. Falco's SHDL really is a pain to heavies, and a single laser would have more uses in approaching. Its a win/win situation, not necessarily broken but different. I would call it a tradeoff in itself, a more accurate laser at the cost of not doing double the damage, and also shutting down heavies.

Also, Ivy's leaves are nothing like Falco's lasers. Unlike the lasers, they break with any hit. You can jab clash, break them with aerials, and shrug them off easy. Ivysaurs overrated. =x

 

[shanus]

The day when i removed Falco's SHDL i practically got death threats lmao

I also dont love the idea of a fairly disjointed nair and uAir. They both actually have significant range already on their first hitbox. The main issue i have with him is that poking people with these exterior hitboxes usually leads to zero follow ups as his combos can be fairly easy to DI out of.

I really think fixing his friction and fixing his hitstun constant will give hima much more refined spacing game. I really dig the higher nonclanking sideB

I really feel like biggee hitbox on him is a cop-out solution for addressing falcon. If nair popped a bit less out on first hit or uair slightly less bkb and slightly lower angle
Would be better for those

 

[Blank Mauser]

The day when i removed Falco's SHDL i practically got death threats lmao

But thats without adding FF lasers to compensate. =X

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah, FF, DIable, and +1 damage maybe, but I'd really like to see it gone (and I'm glad I'm not the only one). Talk to the (good) Falco mains. I already know that Thunderhorse agrees with me.

 

[GHNeko]

I think he should stick with SHDL, SHFF lasers would change his metagame and make it resemble his melee counterpark even more. That and SHFF isnt really ****ed as much by platforms as SHDL, making platform stages as CPs against Falco less effective and its just harder to avoid SHFF Lasers in general than SHDL.

It'd be a net buff overall imo.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think he should stick with SHDL, SHFF lasers would change his metagame and make it resemble his melee counterpark even more. That and SHFF isnt really ****ed as much by platforms as SHDL, making platform stages as CPs against Falco less effective and its just harder to avoid SHFF Lasers in general than SHDL.

It'd be a net buff overall imo.

Anyone whos actually good with timing the lasers aren't going to be messed up by platforms anyways. Also, the SHDL really does nothing but quickly immobilize and rack% on heavies. I don't think they'd be harder to avoid. Unlike his Melee counter part it probably wouldn't come out as fast, he'd just have more accuracy in that one shot. If anything it would make his lasers easier to just jump over. The Falco would just have to put in more effort to use it effectively.

 

[storm92]

Well, first I'm going to address the Kirby part you talked about. Kirby does have some amazing combos, especially out of the grab, but in no way does he have set 0-deaths. The closest possible thing would be a Gonzo-esque combo where the opponent is taken from a very low % to around 50, then Fsmash'd off the side of the stage--which can lead to a KO via edgeguarding--but this was in vBrawl as well, albeit with less effectiveness on the edgeguarding.

I agree with the fast falling neutral specials on some moves, such as Fox/Falco lasers, Mario and Luigi's fireballs, and other non-charging B moves.

Samus I can agree upon, that she needs to kill better, even with the Fsmash buff. I'd like to see Bair strengthened more in the KBG, so at mid to high %s it can kill better, as she has some **** sexy combos to lead into it, such as Dair ground spikes. Right now it seems its at an awkward position of setting up for edgeguards and almost being able to kill, but not being necessarily good at either. She needs the help too, as she has to fall back into camping most the time in order to hang in there.

Squirtle Upair is interesting. I've seen it KO as well, but I'm not too sure if its OP right now for how quick the move is and with his moveset as a whole. I'll have to look into that one more.

 

[GHNeko]

Anyone whos actually good with timing the lasers aren't going to be messed up by platforms anyways. Also, the SHDL really does nothing but quickly immobilize and rack% on heavies. I don't think they'd be harder to avoid. Unlike his Melee counter part it probably wouldn't come out as fast, he'd just have more accuracy in that one shot. If anything it would make his lasers easier to just jump over. The Falco would just have to put in more effort to use it effectively.

Actually, I never said that falco's with good timing will be messed up by platforms, its just that SHDL is hurt more by platforms than SHFF lasers. SHDL does the same exact thing that SHFFL does, but hitting different spots. They'd be harder to avoid because with SHDL, you can crawl to avoid teh top laser and maybe bottom, and just block the second one. Some characters hitboxes go low enough during a dash to avoid the first laser, etc etc.

The top laser is more prone to being dodges than teh second one, so SHFFL is infact harder to avoid.
And lol accruacy, all falco has to do is shoot out a steady stream of lasers, and without platforms, SHFFL will be harder to approach than SHDL. :V

 

[Blank Mauser]

Actually, I never said that falco's with good timing will be messed up by platforms, its just that SHDL is hurt more by platforms than SHFF lasers. SHDL does the same exact thing that SHFFL does, but hitting different spots. They'd be harder to avoid because with SHDL, you can crawl to avoid teh top laser and maybe bottom, and just block the second one. Some characters hitboxes go low enough during a dash to avoid the first laser, etc etc.

The top laser is more prone to being dodges than teh second one, so SHFFL is infact harder to avoid.
And lol accruacy, all falco has to do is shoot out a steady stream of lasers, and without platforms, SHFFL will be harder to approach than SHDL. :V

Thats not quite true. You're basing this on the assumption Falco will always SHDL. You need to think of staggered lasers and such.

How would SHFFL be harder to approach than SHDL? It covers less area, it just lets him get to the ground faster for quicker options. Also, depending on the way you would get rid of SHDL (Nerfing SH or adding lag to the laser) then that could also be another arguable tradeoff.

Like I said, a more accurate laser that takes more effort to use, doesn't shut down heavies with spam, and gives more options besides just using laser laser laser. Right now SHDL is not so good for approaching, and its main use is just spam.

 

[_Yes!_]

two lasers are better than one...at least that's what spam always taught me and what I believe is true >.>

 

[The Cape]

Ivy's leaves suck btw, and we nerfed em anyway. As blank said, too easy to beat out. What you didnt see was Gonzo after I taught him the matchup four stocking my Ivy with ease.

Marth is most likely the best character in the game for his range, speed, and ability to outspace just about everyone. His upB was nerfed in KB because its invincible up to the hitbox and is therefore completely safe as a counter attack option (invincible 1-5 and hits on 5).

The move doesnt need to kill and be a completely safe counter attacking move.

 

[_Yes!_]

Marth is nowhere near best character in the game. He cannot kill unless he hits a tipper, it's incredibly easy to gimp him, and I'm pretty sure Fox, Squirtle and MK are better than Marth >.>

The move may not need to kill, but being unable to kill the second lightest character in the game is simply ludicrous.

Edit: I also think Falco is a better character.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Marth is nowhere near best character in the game. He cannot kill unless he hits a tipper, it's incredibly easy to gimp him, and I'm pretty sure Fox, Squirtle and MK are better than Marth >.>

The move may not need to kill, but being unable to kill the second lightest character in the game is simply ludicrous.

Edit: I also think Falco is a better character.

I agree, atm I think Squirtle is the best in the game followed by fox closely. Marth cannot kill at all, and his combo game is only decent, the only thing he truly has going for him right now is his speed and priority, I would suggest giving him some sort of kill move(although cape doesnt think upb should kill, I would like to suggest having his upb kill squirtle at 120 :/)

 

[The Cape]

I can definetly see Fox and squirtle being up there too, maybe after BtL (last time I got some good time playing it) did this happen though.

I dont like the idea of Marth upB killing as it can be used as a counter attack so easily.

Marth DIs well and buffers upB. The opponent does any move and wont hit, but then be hit by Marth's upB. And this move should kill too?

 

[Revven]

I don't want it to be killing heavies as early as it was. It def. should kill Jiggs/Squirtle at about 120%-130%. And that's the bare minimum. Medium characters dying at about 140% from it sounds okay and heavies 160%+. So the maximum it should kill at is about 160% on the heavier characters. I agree that it definitely got overnerfed and it shouldn't have (it barely even sends anywhere when you are recovering back to the stage).

Up B was ridiculous before but, we have the power to keep it in line, this was just overdoing it Cape.

 

[_Yes!_]

The risk:reward is so high on his upb now. If you missed it before, you'd be so screwed. There no reason to even use it now unless you can predict that it will work since it won't even kill. You're better off just shielding in most cases.

 

[The Cape]

I didnt nerf the move as I recall. I just pointed out the need for it because of its stupid invincibility frames.

Yes, I am talking about using it as a combo breaker. With 10 buffer you can buffer the move to hit as soon as hitstun ends and the invincibility will keep you safe, making combos on Marth nearly nonexistant. Also, you can AD before the hitstun ends and end the previous buffer for the upB if the opponent hasnt committed to a move inside your hitbox.

Smart Marth with upB is really ********.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'd say Up-B is a balanced move simply because its so easy to punish. Besides that, none of its counter-attacking functions change when it doesn't kill, its just another thing to look out for when playing Marth really.

I actually think there are other top candidates rather then Marth, Squirtle and Fox. I still think Diddy, Pikachu, and Shiek can trump them when in the right hands.

 

[_Yes!_]

If a marth were to mindlessly upb every time someone was combo'ing them then the aggressor would bait marth to upb. The risk of upb'ing and missing was compensated by the fact that it could kill. Now it's a pretty useless move.

Edit: Marth is borderline high/mid tier now imo. Diddy sucks because if he's offstage he's dead. FD has become diddy's worst nightmare. Pikachu's okay. Sheik's high tier. Squirtle and Fox are top tier. Marth is nowhere near top tier.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I didnt nerf the move as I recall. I just pointed out the need for it because of its stupid invincibility frames.

Yes, I am talking about using it as a combo breaker. With 10 buffer you can buffer the move to hit as soon as hitstun ends and the invincibility will keep you safe, making combos on Marth nearly nonexistant. Also, you can AD before the hitstun ends and end the previous buffer for the upB if the opponent hasnt committed to a move inside your hitbox.

Smart Marth with upB is really ********.

if you buffer upb against somebody thats smart, they may read this, avoid it, and punish marth very badly.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Edit: Marth is borderline high/mid tier now imo. Diddy sucks because if he's offstage he's dead. FD has become diddy's worst nightmare. Pikachu's okay. Sheik's high tier. Squirtle and Fox are top tier. Marth is nowhere near top tier.

I don't find edgeguarding a good Diddy that simple. Save your jump, jump with airdodge, side-B, arc your rockets, recover over the ledge, and all that good stuff. His recovery could be better then say, Falcon or Squirtles if its used smartly. It definitely has more range.

I think Pikachu just plain outclasses Squirtle in a lot of things such as range, setups, kill moves, recovery and really he can dish out just as much if not more then Squirtle. Not to mention a decent projectile, he just has a lot more going for him.