Brawl+ ideas by Yes!

[The Cape]

What I am saying is you can buffer upB and actually change your decision to an AD or a move or something else. So that if the person does not commit to an attack, you arent upBing and being easily punished.

 

[teh_spamerer]

while also allowing characters like falco to pull off things like CC shine, leading directly into complete ****

Anyone who gets hit by Falco's CC shine in Melee DESERVES to be completely *****, that move has ABYSMAL range. You can easily space so that after CC you aren't hit by shine.

Also, if you CC certain moves(a number of dsmashes, and any spike/meteor) you set yourself up for taking more damage.

Sheik ***** falcon in melee lol

Myth. Falcon does not get ***** by Sheik. Falcon players do though :/

Marth is most likely the best character in the game for his range, speed, and ability to outspace just about everyone. His upB was nerfed in KB because its invincible up to the hitbox and is therefore completely safe as a counter attack option (invincible 1-5 and hits on 5).

In MELEE, Marth had MORE range, MORE speed, and could outspace MORE characters with his superior range and he STILL wasn't the best in the game. Literally every single move except side b and upsmash are roughly 999999999999999999999999999999999999 billion times better in Melee.

two lasers are better than one...at least that's what spam always taught me and what I believe is true >.>

Not always better. Quality > quantity.

I dont like the idea of Marth upB killing as it can be used as a counter attack so easily.

Marth DIs well and buffers upB. The opponent does any move and wont hit, but then be hit by Marth's upB. And this move should kill too?

Either

A) Marth's opponent got greedy and tried to follow up something that combos horizontally, because no Marth player is going to try to up b out of upair --> upair, and took minimal damage from his up B with no way for Marth to follow it up, and they can punish Marth if they are at low %

B) Marth's opponent wasn't greedy and followed up his legit combo, and Marth couldn't escape because he was still in hitstun.

That isn't unfair at all.

 

[leafgreen386]

Anyone who gets hit by Falco's CC shine in Melee DESERVES to be completely *****, that move has ABYSMAL range. You can easily space so that after CC you aren't hit by shine.

Also, if you CC certain moves(a number of dsmashes, and any spike/meteor) you set yourself up for taking more damage.

You can easily space so that after CC you aren't hit by shine... if you're marth, I suppose. Any character that has to throw out their hurtbox with their attack can't just suddenly warp out of his range, though.

Myth. Falcon does not get ***** by Sheik. Falcon players do though :/

Meh. Probably true.

On the topic of marth's upB... my biggest problem with it is that it's basically a counter he can use on reaction. If you see a foe starting to throw their move out in the upB's range, you just mash upB and it hits them. It shouldn't be much stronger than how it is now, since you're talking about a counter move - a combo breaker - that kills, or used to, anyway. It does its job of getting a foe off of marth while dealing some damage to them. That's all it should need to be. No reason this should kill, as well.

 

[VietGeek]

On the topic of Marth and kill moves, this is something I've been somewhat messing with, this is a C/P post that was meant to reply to something in the WBR Marth+ post...

I only worked on it a bit through trial and error, so it's a rough sketch at best.

On the subject of Marth's side-B (this is probably the favorite subject when it comes to this project and Marth), leafgreen, you've agreed in the past (IIRC) that you've overnerfed side-B. Back then I said it was fine for it to be punishable when it hits shield due to it being a natural weakness of it back in vB, and it was "spammable" then too.

While I'm fine with the idea of % nerfs, I find it troublesome that 4th hit up NEVER realistically kills. One of the problems with DB early on was that it COULD kill, WAS spammable, and racked up HUGE damage.

However, with how hard it is to land Up 4th, the move should be given some extra KBG to compensate (NOT complete compensation, but to make it so a tipped 4th up could kill at say... 120% with DI, untipped at 140% with DI). Right now tipped doesn't even kill Ivysaur at 150% no DI on FD. That combination was meant to be a kill move.

It could kill MK in vB training mode under 100% tipped. And there's less KB but no decay in TM.

Would it make Marth better? Maybe, it's a very modest "buff" imo, because it's "fixing an overnerf."

Also the match where Spamerer spams DB on Kasrani: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_PrTQzLQaU#watch-vid-title

No DB Up kills/near kills, simply because the move becomes harder to connect at higher %s. Even on the MK battle where it would've been beneficial to use up since it gives MK less room to DI and exploits his weight, it wasn't used to kill.

Right now the two hitboxes of DBU4 are:

hb1 (sour)

1106823C 0205011C
04 <82> 3C02 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

growth is 130

hb2 (tip)
1108823C 0205011C
05 <82> 3C02 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

To make it so sour kills at 140% with DI, it would be somewhere around: This is the goal; execution of that goal not exactly same. :\

150 growth (might be way too high, probably should reduce to 140?)

hb1 (sour)
1106823C 0205011C
04963C02 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

To make it so tip kills at 120% with DI, it would be somewhere around: This is the goal; execution of that goal not exactly same. :\

160 growth (probably too strong atm, should probably stay in 150-155 range)

hb2 (tip)
1108823C 0205011C
05A03C02 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

This would've fixed an overnerf and given Marth a kill move. Problem with this is that it's:

1. Dancing Blade
2. Probably one of the safest kill moves in the game...cuz it's Dancing Blade
3. Ideally it would probably be best to buff the base and tinker the KBG alongside it instead of growth alone. Because DB up, despite being somewhat harder to land, becomes REALLY spammy at higher percentages due to how the growth starts making it send people faaaarrrrr.

4. Instead of tip killing at 120 (with DI), maybe it would be 130%, and sour would remain at 140% instead.

*shrug*

I probably should mess with it a little more.

 

[teh_spamerer]

You can easily space so that after CC you aren't hit by shine... if you're marth, I suppose. Any character that has to throw out their hurtbox with their attack can't just suddenly warp out of his range, though.

Falco still gets pushed away by the move even if he isn't lifted off the ground. If that wasn't the case, high level Falco's would just shoot lasers and CC shine everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI3hq-14gXE

I don't think there's a single CC shine in that whole match.

On the topic of marth's upB... my biggest problem with it is that it's basically a counter he can use on reaction. If you see a foe starting to throw their move out in the upB's range, you just mash upB and it hits them. It shouldn't be much stronger than how it is now, since you're talking about a counter move - a combo breaker - that kills, or used to, anyway. It does its job of getting a foe off of marth while dealing some damage to them. That's all it should need to be. No reason this should kill, as well.

A very large number of characters rely on aeriel approaches. All you have to do is jump at Marth and if you think he's going to up b, double jump away right before you would be in up b range or DI away if you're someone like Wario and land right outside up b range. If he uses the move he gets *****. If he doesn't use it, nothing happens. Just because it has invincibility on startup and can act as a counter move doesn't mean that you can safely use it whenever your opponent decides to approach and make it impossible for them to do anything. As I said earlier, it's not that great of a combo breaker because

Either

A) Marth's opponent got greedy and tried to follow up something that combos horizontally, because no Marth player is going to try to up b out of upair --> upair, and took minimal damage from his up B with no way for Marth to follow it up, and they can punish Marth if they are at low %

B) Marth's opponent wasn't greedy and followed up his legit combo, and Marth couldn't escape because he was still in hitstun.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Falco still gets pushed away by the move even if he isn't lifted off the ground. If that wasn't the case, high level Falco's would just shoot lasers and CC shine everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI3hq-14gXE

I don't think there's a single CC shine in that whole match.

Isn't there one in the first 10 seconds?...

 

[leafgreen386]

@viet: To completely compensate for a move's damage change, you would multiply its growth by the old damage and divide by the new damage, then add base equal to the amount of damage you took away (or subtract base equal to the damage you added if you're buffing). The base thing isn't exact, but it roughly works out.

So on the sourspot, if you gave it 156 growth and raised its base by 2, you'd have completely compensated for the damage change. On the sweetspot, if you gave it 168 growth and raised its base by 3, you'd have completely compensated for the damage change. You're so close to it already that the thing is going to be killing very similarly to what it did before the nerf, which I don't think is what we want.

Also, I should clarify that training mode in vbrawl didn't do less damage/kb. In actuality, it was vs mode that did more damage/kb. Training mode didn't have stale moves, which means attacks not only do not become weaker, but they don't receive a bonus for being fresh. A fresh move receives a 1.05x damage bonus, which as we know now directly influences growth. Since we removed stale moves, vbrawl training mode is actually more similar to brawl+ than its vs mode.

Isn't there one in the first 10 seconds?...

Yes. Yes, there is.

Also, iirc pc chris frequently uses the CC shine in his matches. I should go find one.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Isn't there one in the first 10 seconds?...

Yep.

Btw, being pushed out of range isn't as big of a counterpoint as you think (considering that there is no stun and shine comes out in 1 frame <_<)

Similar crouch cancel oddities are Samus CC d-smash, Marth's CC grab (Marth's CC is pretty bad though ), ect, ect.

All avoidable (Samus vs Roy becomes pretty unwinnable though.), but I'd rather not have to go through all the rebalancing needed. Pit CC d-tilt? Fox CC upsmash? I don't think anything completely broken would come from it, but it would still heavily scew some matchups and be more hassle than it's worth.

However, I wouldn't mind some modified version of CC (REDUCED stun instead of 0 stun, or less damage, or something).

 

[GHNeko]

I gave the idea of CCs reducing damage by 1-3% (And a case of Bad DI LOL)

In the case of Marth, what reliable kill moves that marth has that kill at decent percents? Seperate ground moves from aerials. Dair doesn't count because it can be MC'd and based on the character, the results vary.

 

[Magus420]

Btw, being pushed out of range isn't as big of a counterpoint as you think (considering that there is no stun and shine comes out in 1 frame <_<)

While there may be no stun, there is still 4-6 frames of landing lag from crouch canceling (2 if you're using Pichu, lol) so some sliding does happen before they can do anything, and that time also generally allows the attacker to land and when spaced pull out of range of something like Falco's shine.

However, I wouldn't mind some modified version of CC (REDUCED stun instead of 0 stun, or less damage, or something).

^^

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7653706

 

[teh_spamerer]

whooooooooops

I should probably rewatch a match before linking.

Anyways, the point remains that it obviously isn't spammable strategy if he uses it one time in the entire match. Falco can CC to ridiculous percents against Sheik before being lifted off the ground. No one with any degree of skill at all would ever ever ever lose that match if CC shine was always guaranteed because you get free combo from shine and you can only mess that up so many times.

Btw, being pushed out of range isn't as big of a counterpoint as you think (considering that there is no stun and shine comes out in 1 frame <_<)

Nah, it's not ALWAYS no stun

<teh_spamerer> yo magus
<Magus> sup
<teh_spamerer> does CCing remove all stun from everything that's not a spike?
<teh_spamerer> spike/meteor*
<Magus> on anything that has a launch angle above horizontal and doesn't cause a knockdown you cancel the stun from the attack with teh regular landing animation

Anything that doesn't have above horizontal launch angle(and that's quite a few moves) and you won't have no stun.

EDIT: Double post

 

[Vex Kasrani]

While there may be no stun, there is still 4-6 frames of landing lag from crouch canceling (2 if you're using Pichu, lol) so some sliding does happen before they can do anything, and that time also generally allows the attacker to land and when spaced pull out of range of something like Falco's shine.

^^

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7653706

Magus, wheres purple stuff 2, ive been waiting for years

 

[Magus420]

Magus, wheres purple stuff 2, ive been waiting for years

First I didn't have time, then my standards for clips I wanted to have in it got higher and wanted to get more and better footage, and then I got sucky =(

Perhaps eventually xD

 

[GHNeko]

Right, so small damage reduction, yes?

Or an automatic tech if you are sent straight/horizontal/0 degrees left or right, and you DI into the stage?

 

[leafgreen386]

Yep.

Btw, being pushed out of range isn't as big of a counterpoint as you think (considering that there is no stun and shine comes out in 1 frame <_<)

Similar crouch cancel oddities are Samus CC d-smash, Marth's CC grab (Marth's CC is pretty bad though ), ect, ect.

All avoidable (Samus vs Roy becomes pretty unwinnable though.), but I'd rather not have to go through all the rebalancing needed. Pit CC d-tilt? Fox CC upsmash? I don't think anything completely broken would come from it, but it would still heavily scew some matchups and be more hassle than it's worth.

However, I wouldn't mind some modified version of CC (REDUCED stun instead of 0 stun, or less damage, or something).

Reduced damage would be particularly interesting, seeing as it has a direct effect on kb/stun. Make it so that crouching causes you to take 80% of the damage the attack would've caused would let it be useful for prolonging tumble on some moves (considering that the tumble is frequently what causes otherwise weak moves to become safe). I'm just worried about what will happen to jabs after this. They're already pathetic compared to their melee incarnations, but this would make them even worse (the ones that rely on mostly growth for their stun, anyway, which is basically all of the set kb jabs (yes, I know it's counter-intuitive, but set kb moves identify with "growth," usually)).

While there may be no stun, there is still 4-6 frames of landing lag from crouch canceling (2 if you're using Pichu, lol) so some sliding does happen before they can do anything, and that time also generally allows the attacker to land and when spaced pull out of range of something like Falco's shine.

I thought that the landing animation was IASAable on frame 2 for the soft landing and IASAable on frame 4 for the hard landing animation? The same as in brawl.

<Magus> on anything that has a launch angle above horizontal and doesn't cause a knockdown you cancel the stun from the attack with teh regular landing animation

Anything that doesn't have above horizontal launch angle(and that's quite a few moves) and you won't have no stun.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but you just said exactly the opposite of what magus told you. Anything with a positive launch angle can have its stun canceled by the landing animation. This even happens to fox's shine if you hit them in the air with it, so really, anything that doesn't spike gets CC'd.

Right, so small damage reduction, yes?

Or an automatic tech if you are sent straight/horizontal/0 degrees left or right, and you DI into the stage?

First off, you can't tech weak hits anyway. Second off, this tech would basically just treat the opponent as if they had 80% of the damage they currently have (remember: growth, damage a move does, and the opponent's percent are all interchangeable since they multiply together in the launch speed formula), so it would just mean everything gets shifted a bit. An auto-tech would be horribly dumb...

 

[Magus420]

I thought that the landing animation was IASAable on frame 2 for the soft landing and IASAable on frame 4 for the hard landing animation? The same as in brawl.

Nah. There are no soft/hard landings in Melee. There Can Be Only One (highlander). 2 for Pichu, 5 for Ganon/DK, 6 for Bowser, and 4 for everyone else iirc.

Right, so small damage reduction, yes?

Or an automatic tech if you are sent straight/horizontal/0 degrees left or right, and you DI into the stage?

I say further reduced hitlag on the defender, lowered hitstun multiplier (character specific if needed), and reduced damage (if it reduces KB a bit along with it that works too imo).

 

[GHNeko]

^ I agree with Magus.

 

[leafgreen386]

I say further reduced hitlag on the defender, lowered hitstun multiplier (character specific if needed), and reduced damage (if it reduces KB a bit along with it that works too imo).

Although considering that brawl+ already reduced hitlag from vbrawl standards, would dropping it a little bit more even help that much? Also, the hitstun reduction is unnecessary as long as you have the damage reduction. A 20% damage reduction is also a 20% knockback and hitstun reduction, which I think is already plenty rewarding enough, making it possible to punish moves for longer.

Nah. There are no soft/hard landings in Melee. There Can Be Only One (highlander). 2 for Pichu, 5 for Ganon/DK, 6 for Bowser, and 4 for everyone else iirc.

Hm? I thought there was a different landing for fast falls in melee...? I know I read those frame numbers somewhere, because I remember when I heard how brawl did it I thought "oh, it's the same as melee." I'm sufficiently confused now.

 

[Magus420]

Although considering that brawl+ already reduced hitlag from vbrawl standards, would dropping it a little bit more even help that much? Also, the hitstun reduction is unnecessary as long as you have the damage reduction. A 20% damage reduction is also a 20% knockback and hitstun reduction, which I think is already plenty rewarding enough to make it possible to punish some moves for longer.

The KB and stun would scale anyway. You wouldn't gain much besides getting comboed as if you were simply at a lower damage in most cases. The multiplier allows you to be stunned for less than you normally would for the distance you traveled.

 

[leafgreen386]

The KB and stun would scale anyway. You wouldn't gain much besides getting comboed as if you were simply at a lower damage in most cases. The multiplier allows you to be stunned for less than you normally would for the distance you traveled.

I'm really just thinking about all the moves that are already unsafe on hit before they tumble (although I believe many of the aerials can be mitigated by performing them close to the ground) and making those windows that they're unsafe for last longer.

 

[GHNeko]

Then we make CC+ only so effective that you get the bare minimum for actually using the tactic. :V

Or we can increase the KB of the moves and reduce the damage taken.

 

[teh_spamerer]

I'm not sure if you realize this, but you just said exactly the opposite of what magus told you.

...no

What I said

Falco still gets pushed away by the move even if he isn't lifted off the ground. If that wasn't the case, high level Falco's would just shoot lasers and CC shine everything.

What Magus said

<Magus> on anything that has a launch angle above horizontal and doesn't cause a knockdown you cancel the stun from the attack with teh regular landing animation

Anything that doesn't have above horizontal launch angle(and that's quite a few moves) and you won't have no stun.

I just repeated his words omitting "doesn't cause a knockdown" :/

Anything with a positive launch angle can have its stun canceled by the landing animation. This even happens to fox's shine if you hit them in the air with it, so really, anything that doesn't spike gets CC'd.

Well duh that happens to Fox's shine if you hit them in the air with it. But if you hit Falco in the air with it he can't CC shine and hit him.

You mentioned PC Chris using CC shine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSOyH82YZ3Q#t=1m1s

He does it around then and it misses.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think your use of multiple negatives is what confused me, because I read your comment completely wrong. Either way, I concede that CC shine wasn't OMG BROKEN in melee, but CCing was still a very powerful tactic, so if we're going to be implementing a CC-like mechanic to brawl+, we're going to have to be very careful with how we do so.