Brawl+ G&W: Guide version 1.0 up!

[CountKaiser]

Game and Watch +​

Table of Contents
1. G&W in brawl vs. brawl+
2. What’s new, Pros and Cons
3. General strategy
4. Combos
5. Matchups

G&W in brawl vs. brawl+​

G&W remains largely unchanged from his regular brawl self. Many people, however, see him as disadvantaged and possibly in need of buffs due to how the mechanics of the game don’t seem to favor him. Due to hitstun, G&W can actually be comboed, he no longer has his bucket braking, which enabled him to live around 140+, and he seems very straightforward compared to most characters. While this is all true, G&W has also gained some combos himself. His nair combos nicely into itself, shieldstun has made bair a good pressure tool, and the lack of auto-sweetspot has made G&W an incredible edgeguarder.

What's new, Pros and Cons​

The only differences he exhibits from vBrawl is
• Reduced lag on aerials (except dair)
• Faster fast fall
• Faster dthrow
• Slightly more endlag on dsmash

Pros
• Good at shield pressure
• Veritable tank of priority
• Has absurdly powerful killers
• Great recovery
• Great edgeguarding ability
• Has a crouch that can duck under some projectiles and attacks

Cons
• Dies easily
• His killers are slightly laggy
• Grab range is laughably bad
• Falls into the habit of telegraphing himself rather easily

General Strategy​

Approaching

Bair is still your bread and butter approach, although this can quickly get predictable. Be sure to vary up bair with nair. Fair, while generally risky as it can be punished on block, can be rewarding if it catches the opponent off guard. Another great option that G&W has gained is a dash canceled dtilt

Spacing

Be careful when using bair for spacing, as it can be punished now when fighting a competent opponent. Dtilt is good for spacing. Nair, not so much, as the best hitbox for it, the fish on the sides of it, doesn’t come out until around frame 20.

With the buff to chef, it is now a good anti-air and can force a ground approach, which can be countered with dtilt. Be careful not to spam this carelessly, as it can still be punished.


Comboing

Your main combo starters will most likely be either nair, bair, or dtilt. You can follow up a bair with a nair if your quick enough, or another bair if the opponent DI’s badly. Nairs usually combo into more nairs, which is good as the entire move does 17% damage. Dtilt forces someone to the ground, and thus sets up for a tech chase. You can follow the first dtilt with another one if the opponent fails to tech the first one. If they tech towards you, you can greet them with a dsmash, and if they tech away, you must chase them in order to follow up with anything, more than likely another dtilt. When you want to top off a combo, Up-B is normally a good choice, as it’s quick, has quite the hitbox, and can set up for an edgeguard.


Edgeguarding

Dtilt is your bread and butter for characters who like to recover low or for people who try to sweetspot the edge. Fair is great for chasing people off the edge. Don’t be afraid to extend yourself a bit, as G&W’s recovery allows him to come back from quite a ways away. Up-B is also good for edgeguarding, as it can get an unexpected kill off the opponent.

It should be noted that dair has a spike to it, and that a slowfall dair can be used to get a kill off the stage. I, however, have never really seen it to be useful.


Grab Game

G&W’s grab range is poor, not to mention that his grabs don’t really lead into much, with the exception of dthrow.

Dthrow can still be used to techchase, though you most likely will not be able to techchase with usmash due to how easy it is to tech now, and the speed up tech rolls got. You can techchase a tech with a DC dsmash, fsmash, or another grab. If they don’t tech the throw, you can try to immediately follow up with a dsmash right there, or you can chase the roll and connect with a usmash.

Uthrow normally only leads into an Up-B, or into uair stalling. Fthrow and Bthrow are, for the most part, useless unless you can trick the opponent into DIing the wrong way, and thus set up for an edgeguard.

Getting the grab, however, will not be easy. The best way to do it is to jab, then grab.

Combos​

Coming soon!

Matchups​

Jiggs: 70:30
This match was seen as nigh impossible for Jiggs, as G&W could outrange anything she had, and could kill better than she could. In brawl+, jiggs now has rest and can get a combo out of hitting G&W. However, this doesn’t change the fact that she has an incredibly hard time getting inside G&W. Not only that, but even when rested, G&W can DI the hit, die, then come back and kill the Jiggs with a sweetspot dsmash.

 

[BBQ°]

Does down-air -> up-b pillar work in Brawl+?

 

[CountKaiser]

I imagine it would.

By pillar, is this something used against a shield? If so, I don't see why it wouldn't due to shieldstun.

 

[5ive]

Pillar is usually referring to Falco's pillar in Melee. (Jump Canceled Shine to D air, then repeat).
Overall, it's a combination of 2 or 3 moves that send you up, then down and can be repeated.

Something comparable in Brawl or even Brawl+ is Fox's Dair to Up tilt.

For Game and Watch, I think it could work on bigger characters. Based on my memory of Brawl, if you try to hit an Up B when both you and your opponent are on the ground, your opponent would have to be a larger character. Also, the dair hitbox is relatively hard to hit with; mixed with DI, it may not be a recommended technique. With that said, that could deter it's progression in being a viable tactic.

I'll do some testing later.

 

[Almas]

The 'true' meaning of Pillaring in Smash games is perform a rapid series of attacks in order to pressure a shield.

In Melee, this was Falco using SH Aerial (almost always Dair)/Shine chains, or Peach using Nair or Dair -> double slap from behind a shield.

Pillaring is often taken to mean comboing by linking together moves with upwards sending hitboxes with moves with downwards sending hitboxes: the classic example being Falco's Dair->Shine combos. But that isn't the true definition of the word, as I understand it.

[/edumacation]

I'm lead to believe that G&W is one of the characters that is very powerful at low to mid levels of play, but as your progress, begins to be a lot less glamorous. Though his attacks are powerful and carry a lot of priority, they tend to be predictable and easy to defend against: he lacks significant depth as a character compared to many others who have ATs which they can use in order to mix things up.

 

[5ive]

The 'true' meaning of Pillaring in Smash games is perform a rapid series of attacks in order to pressure a shield.

Pillaring: Two forms of this concept have arisen over the years. The first, its formal definition, involves a Falco player chipping away at an opponents’ shield by alternating between shuffled dairs and his shine attack. The second, more commonly used definition (but actually incorrect) is the actual shine to dair combo where the opponent receives damage.

Anyways, I did some testing on the proposed Pillar. It doesn't work that well :/. I only tried it briefly though. Still needs more testing for specific characters.

 

[BBQ°]

Oh well. I know some noob thought the pillar would work in Brawl waaay back, but it's much too easy to escape. I was hoping that it would work with the hitstun in Brawl+ though.
Worth a shot :]

 

[CountKaiser]

I've tried it. It works to an extent, but it's normally better to follow up with something else, like fair.

 

[Plum]

I'm lead to believe that G&W is one of the characters that is very powerful at low to mid levels of play, but as your progress, begins to be a lot less glamorous. Though his attacks are powerful and carry a lot of priority, they tend to be predictable and easy to defend against: he lacks significant depth as a character compared to many others who have ATs which they can use in order to mix things up.

This.

This times ten thousand.

If you don't know what to do against G&W then he will dominate you. This is why a lot of people thought that he was one of the best in Brawl +. But hitstun is the real downfall of G&W. In Melee he was a horrible character because he was easy to combo and died earlier than any character.

Same, although not to the same degree in my opinion, happens in Brawl +.

G&W isn't floaty enough to escape combos which means that a lot of characters have an easy time bringing him to 40, or even 50% depending on how well you read DI and everything. Other characters are fine because they still have another 60 or 70 percent until they have to start worrying but G&W is already in kill percents for some characters with powerful finishers. Characters like Fox and Falcon can reliably and rather easily kill him at like 60%.

Once get over the initial shock of G&W in Brawl + he becomes easy to deal with. He has buffs from his garbage days from Melee and some small buffs from Brawl + like the lessened aerial lag, but he looses more then he gains really. He really has no reliable option of killing anymore. Well technically he never did in vBrawl either but his tech chasing game made up for it. He can't tech chase from Dthrow anymore because techs are too fast now; that took away his best option for killing. Now he is limited to Fair essentially and that doesn't kill until way too high of percents to be a good kill move.

He doesn't have the survivability that he had in vBrawl. Hitstun makes Bucket Braking more or less useless, and in vBrawl he never had to worry about followups because the lack of hitstun. In vBrawl I could live towards 150% with DI and Bucket Braking, and 200% on characters with poor killing options like Samus. Now I'm lucky to make it close to 100%.

G&W can't kill as early as he could in vBrawl, and his lifespan was shortened a lot.

Almas really hit the nail on the head with G&W. At lower and mid levels of Brawl + G&W is amazing and looks like he is top tier material. High levels he looses a lot. His options seem great with disjointed hitboxes, high priority and often surprising range. G&W is such a straight forward character though that he is predictable and easily dealt with even when he has a great moveset on paper.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228901
That thread really sums up what a lot of us G&W mains feel, this is also coming from top players like Hylian.

I'm not going to say what G&W needs in order to be a viable character because that is not what this is for. I'm just saying that he doesn't have what it takes to perform in the current environment with the way he is set up. It's sad to say it, because I love G&W as a character so much, but it's why I main Wario in Brawl +.

 

[CountKaiser]

This.

This times ten thousand.

If you don't know what to do against G&W then he will dominate you. This is why a lot of people thought that he was one of the best in Brawl +. But hitstun is the real downfall of G&W. In Melee he was a horrible character because he was easy to combo and died earlier than any character.

Same, although not to the same degree in my opinion, happens in Brawl +.

G&W isn't floaty enough to escape combos which means that a lot of characters have an easy time bringing him to 40, or even 50% depending on how well you read DI and everything. Other characters are fine because they still have another 60 or 70 percent until they have to start worrying but G&W is already in kill percents for some characters with powerful finishers. Characters like Fox and Falcon can reliably and rather easily kill him at like 60%.

Once get over the initial shock of G&W in Brawl + he becomes easy to deal with. He has buffs from his garbage days from Melee and some small buffs from Brawl + like the lessened aerial lag, but he looses more then he gains really. He really has no reliable option of killing anymore. Well technically he never did in vBrawl either but his tech chasing game made up for it. He can't tech chase from Dthrow anymore because techs are too fast now; that took away his best option for killing. Now he is limited to Fair essentially and that doesn't kill until way too high of percents to be a good kill move.

He doesn't have the survivability that he had in vBrawl. Hitstun makes Bucket Braking more or less useless, and in vBrawl he never had to worry about followups because the lack of hitstun. In vBrawl I could live towards 150% with DI and Bucket Braking, and 200% on characters with poor killing options like Samus. Now I'm lucky to make it close to 100%.

G&W can't kill as early as he could in vBrawl, and his lifespan was shortened a lot.

Almas really hit the nail on the head with G&W. At lower and mid levels of Brawl + G&W is amazing and looks like he is top tier material. High levels he looses a lot. His options seem great with disjointed hitboxes, high priority and often surprising range. G&W is such a straight forward character though that he is predictable and easily dealt with even when he has a great moveset on paper.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228901
That thread really sums up what a lot of us G&W mains feel, this is also coming from top players like Hylian.

I'm not going to say what G&W needs in order to be a viable character because that is not what this is for. I'm just saying that he doesn't have what it takes to perform in the current environment with the way he is set up. It's sad to say it, because I love G&W as a character so much, but it's why I main Wario in Brawl +.

Let's take a look at G&W, then.

Pros
Defensive powerhouse
Powerful smashes
Virtually ungimpable recovery
Gimps rather well

Cons
Easy to combo
Light
And thus is the easiest charcer to kill(Easier than jiggs, actually)
Smashes are slow and telegraphed
No variety, and thus can be very predictable


The first thing people baw about it G&W's priority. Frankly, it takes some doing to find a way around it, but it isn't impossible. Next people mentions his smashes, which are absurdly powerful and are good for punishing people with.

The fact that he dies early is offset by the fact that it is nearly impossible to hit G&W in the first place. Despite brawl+ being more offensive-based, G&W is still mainly a defensive character, and should be played as such.

Plum, you and other G&W mains have only complained about him, from what it seems like. Try to mention something good about him.

 

[Hylian]

It's hard not to complain when your main is so much worse then before and everyone thinks he's better.

What makes GW so hard to hit? You talk about his priority and hitbox's like they are a godsend. Yes, they are very good...but they didn't change from vbrawl. The very concept of spacing and baiting means GW is going to get hit. Are you going to compare his priority to say Marth or MK's? Are they also impossible to hit? While having great finishers and being heavier? Gw doesn't even have reliable kill set-ups on the ground, how could you possibly consider him a glass cannon?

 

[CountKaiser]

Marth and MK aren't impossible to hit, but are still hard to get through, like G&W. MK actually only has nair and fsmash for finishing, as dsmash and shuttle loop have been nerfed.

Hylian, do you see anything good about G&W? All i've heard are complaints about him not having kill setups, being comboed too hard, and being too light.

Also, when you used G&W, who did you go up against, anyway?

EDIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Xhyfz2xCM

In the last minute of that match, a lone G&W had to fend off two opponents, the two were Chu and Boss, and the G&W was God-is-my-Rock. Note how they were barely able to land anything on him, only being able to get off one substantial combo on him. This is what I mean by G&W having such a rock solid defense.

 

[cutter]

I don't know how you guys would think G&W would even come close to being good in Brawl+ at high levels. Increased hitstun completely ruins a glass cannon character, and it's why G&W was a low/bottom tier character in Melee aside from his shield.

Every substantial combo most characters can tolerate, but with G&W if he gets comboed like that, his stock is done.

If you want to make G&W the glass cannon character you guys are looking for, he needs to be an offensive juggernaut.

Also, why did you guys nerf his Dsmash to hell? It is not even in the same realm as MK's Dsmash.

 

[Plum]

I don't know how you guys would think G&W would even come close to being good in Brawl+ at high levels. Increased hitstun completely ruins a glass cannon character, and it's why G&W was a low/bottom tier character in Melee aside from his shield.

Every substantial combo most characters can tolerate, but with G&W if he gets comboed like that, his stock is done.

If you want to make G&W the glass cannon character you guys are looking for, he needs to be an offensive juggernaut.

Also, why did you guys nerf his Dsmash to hell? It is not even in the same realm as MK's Dsmash.

Jiggly works as a glass cannon; but that is because she is floaty enough to fit the role. That and she can reliably kill.
Both of which G&W lacks and screw him over.

I think the Dsmash nerf came out of low and mid level play. He does have some natural buffs from B+ physics and with less experienced players they probably just got dominated by G&W.

But I will say that G&W is still great in teams from my experience. With a partner to help him out of sticky situations he has a much higher survivability rate and whatever he can do in vBrawl in teams still applies.

 

[CountKaiser]

I don't know how you guys would think G&W would even come close to being good in Brawl+ at high levels. Increased hitstun completely ruins a glass cannon character, and it's why G&W was a low/bottom tier character in Melee aside from his shield.

Every substantial combo most characters can tolerate, but with G&W if he gets comboed like that, his stock is done.

If you want to make G&W the glass cannon character you guys are looking for, he needs to be an offensive juggernaut.

Also, why did you guys nerf his Dsmash to hell? It is not even in the same realm as MK's Dsmash.

In order to make him an offensive character, his aerials will have to be reworked, his aerial momentum increased, his dash speed increased, and his smashes easier to kill with.

Incidentally, I'm working on G&W's dsmash so that it comes out in 10 frames instead of 15.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, this thread is in need of a bump.

I retract my statements on GW needing changes to be aggressive. He can be aggressive just fine. Look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5XaKAjHd1A&feature=channel_page

And his dthrow was speed up 1.33 times so that he can techchase again.

People, please stop whining about GW. Say something that he gained. Everyone acts as though he lost everything good in brawl+

He is still really hard to hit, this no one can deny. He can also use his priority to pressure people fairly well. His fsmash is really good at punishing now, since it lingers for a long while and has nice kill potential.

Anyone have anything else to say?

 

[The Cape]

No decay on smashes and turtle are just plain wrong with GW. He is a wall of priority and when played right should never have someone get inside him.

GW can play aggressive for sure, but he has to space well and create openings. He is a character that is amazing at creating openings and should be doing so as much as possible.

 

[Plum]

The more I play him in Brawl+, the more I start to fall in love with him again, he definitely does have positives, but he still has nightmare matchups among the more popular characters like Marth.

I guess that is the reason I really didn't like him at first, because I only used him against Marth, Snake, and characters like Fox who can just Uair him so early.

He still dominates most of the cast like he did in vBrawl but with me he has the same issues in that popular characters tend to be his worst matchups.

Against most of the cast though he is still a wall of priority who capitalizes on whatever mistake with a stupid early kill.

His survivability is gone without Bucket Braking, so basically without perfect DI G&W is just going to die too early to be that good, but with DI I can still push him towards 120 or 130 now against most characters. Nowhere near the 200% you could get in vBrawl against some characters (what isn't pure LOL about living to 200% with G&W?) but it isn't horrible considering he at least doesn't get gimped like Link or Ness.

It was hard going only G&W in vBrawl, but certainly doable with enough put into him. Same is going to apply here. He has some really hard matchups, and that's what will hold him back, but he still is a good character.

For me, I find its best to know when to turn the gay on. The more I got into Wario the more I realized how well it can work with G&W. Just hopping around and spacing retreating aerials and using an Up B to make a quick getaway all while just waiting for an opening. He can be aggressive but I feel like he doesn't have as much leeway in it because a mistake with G&W can eat up a large portion of your stock quickly. I play defensively and create a wall of disjointed priority until it creates an opening and go from there.

That's my second view of G&W in +. Hitstun still hurts him but he has more ways to deal with it then he did in Melee.

 

[Hylian]

Cape, why do you approach sonic with fair? It's REALLY punishable >_> lol.

So, I took 4th in the Brawl+ tournament at Apex with GW. I lost to Chu twice, who got 1st, and 2/3 stocked every other person I played lol.

Videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z36uJG-Grs8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NClMcmg7YmA

Note: I almost never play brawl+, this stuff I learned during my tournament matches haha.

Also notice how in the first match chu just has to hit me twice to kill me, while I only get kills when I read his dodges -.-.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hylian, that GW seems much better from when Neko and you fought. What are your thoughts on him now?

Also, I'm thinking of writing up a guide on GW. Any thoughts as to what I should put in it?

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, that GW seems much better from when Neko and you fought. What are your thoughts on him now?

Also, I'm thinking of writing up a guide on GW. Any thoughts as to what I should put in it?

Well, when I played Neko it was the first time I had ever played that version.

When I played at Apex, it was also pretty much my first time, but I had time to learn. I played Jceasar first round and he beat my GW with Squirtle, so I picked marth(who I have never played before in Brawl+ and don't play in Vbrawl) and beat his squirtle then Rob. I then had to play Chu and used marth against his falcon and got wrecked. Chu asked me to play GW against him in some friendlies, and I won pretty much 6 in a row vs him and learned a lot about what I was previously doing wrong.

So then I played someone in losers after that and 3 stocked them I think, then played Okin? a lucas and 2 or 3 stocked him, then played HolyNightmare and JV 3 stocked him 3rd game, then played Silven and two stocked him twice I believe, then played Slikvik and 2 stocked his GW in dittos, then played chu as you see there.

I really think I could of beaten chu if I played this game more often. Ninjalink told me after my first game to go over the edge instead of trying to sweetspot it, there are a ton of small things like that I need to learn.


It was still annoying how GW cannot combo into a finisher :/. I had to get my kills through reads every single time, while when I got hit I either took 50% or lost my stock lol. GW isn't as bad as I thought he was, but he still need some work.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, I do agree that GW get's comboed too easily. If character specific hitstun ever comes out, that ca be used to alleviate this problem.

Other tan that, I really don't see much of a problem with GW. Are there any tips you'd like to give people who want to pick him up in brawl+?

 

[slikvik]

you shoulda let me win hylian. i know chus styles better. i woulda won XD

 

[Plum]

Well, when I played Neko it was the first time I had ever played that version.

When I played at Apex, it was also pretty much my first time, but I had time to learn. I played Jceasar first round and he beat my GW with Squirtle, so I picked marth(who I have never played before in Brawl+ and don't play in Vbrawl) and beat his squirtle then Rob. I then had to play Chu and used marth against his falcon and got wrecked. Chu asked me to play GW against him in some friendlies, and I won pretty much 6 in a row vs him and learned a lot about what I was previously doing wrong.

So then I played someone in losers after that and 3 stocked them I think, then played Okin? a lucas and 2 or 3 stocked him, then played HolyNightmare and JV 3 stocked him 3rd game, then played Silven and two stocked him twice I believe, then played Slikvik and 2 stocked his GW in dittos, then played chu as you see there.

I really think I could of beaten chu if I played this game more often. Ninjalink told me after my first game to go over the edge instead of trying to sweetspot it, there are a ton of small things like that I need to learn.

It was still annoying how GW cannot combo into a finisher :/. I had to get my kills through reads every single time, while when I got hit I either took 50% or lost my stock lol. GW isn't as bad as I thought he was, but he still need some work.

G&W's recovery goes way too high to make sweetspotting practical unless you absolutely need too. Not to mention its horrible if you miss the sweetspot because you get stuck in so much lag landing at the apex of it. Recovering high is basically all you can do now :\

The Dthrow change makes chasing more doable but its still kinda eh. I just abuse FF Nair into Dsmash whenever I get the chance, otherwise killing won't happen outside of punishing.

Good job though, Hylian. You did pretty **** good considering how much more time Chu has had with Brawl+.
Did you get any matches against Boss? I'm finding Luigi vs G&W to be a nightmare so far... he combos into finishers and kills so insanely early, especially against G&W. His Nair is stupid good and is an insane combo breaker which makes life even harder for G&W too... Just wondering if you had any matches against the best Luigi out there

 

[slikvik]

I don't really play brawl+ too much but I've entered two tournaments for it and placed 5th(beating meeps marth and dojos falcon and others) at both(one was the apex tournament where hylian placed 4th. G&W dittos are silly XD). the one two weeks prior i beat Ninja link(ike) and keitaro(squirtle) who play the game regularly. i also won teams with m2k who isn't as broken in brawl+ as he is in brawl and he needed alot of support in teams. he only uses ike and DK. I think G&W is easily top tier in this game. hylian, i think G&W is really good at edgeguarding and getting gimps so it makes up for him not being able to combo into reliable finishers a 100% of the time

 

[Veril]

GW is fine. The idea that he is comboed easily is a little silly and by silly I mean... not true. I've done a lot of combo testing with Jiggs, Ganon, Lucas and Zelda. GW has no special vulnerability to combos. He's got good vertical combo resistance in fact.

Definitely not a character in need of a buff.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmm, maybe I just have bad DI, then. =/

Anyway, this thread seems pretty bare. We should discuss something. What should we talk about first? Combos, stages, matchups, or what?

 

[cutter]

GW is fine. The idea that he is comboed easily is a little silly and by silly I mean... not true. I've done a lot of combo testing with Jiggs, Ganon, Lucas and Zelda. GW has no special vulnerability to combos. He's got good vertical combo resistance in fact.

Definitely not a character in need of a buff.

You really don't need to hit G&W with that many attacks to begin with to put him in kill range. Even stuff like Squirtle's generic triple Utilt to Uairs combo takes out over half of G&W's stock right then and there.

 

[Veril]

You really don't need to hit G&W with that many attacks to begin with to put him in kill range. Even stuff like Squirtle's generic triple Utilt to Uairs combo takes out over half of G&W's stock right then and there.

He's not unique in being light...

GW has trouble setting up KO moves but his combo ability lets him wrack up damage well. His light weight means he doesn't need a lot to get KOed, but it is harder to set up KO moves on GW (obviously some characters still have great setups). Jiggs has the same problem with squirtle btw (d*** you Gurukid!). One up-tilt and we lose like... yeah, about half a stock. I guess my point is that GW has a weakness that isn't specific to him, or anywhere near needing a buff to offset.

Alright, here's an example: Jiggs d-throw to rest combo. Its a true combo within a certain % range on certain characters. It basically lets her KO Falcon or Fox off a single grab up to pretty reasonable %.

It is basically useless against GW. It does not combo.

Hmm, maybe I just have bad DI, then. =/

Anyway, this thread seems pretty bare. We should discuss something. What should we talk about first? Combos, stages, matchups, or what?

I just think you've got an inaccurate perception of how easily he's comboed relative to the rest of the cast. I mean, I get comboed as Jiggs by Pikachu, Squirtle and yes, GW. Doesn't mean Jiggs is easy to combo. The numbers just do not support it.

Hey, want to discuss the Jigglypuff matchup? I think the advantage is still solidly GWs, but not to the extent it was in vBrawl (85:15 lolololol ew). F*** your insane priority. I guess I won't post a big wall of text unless you guys are up for the discussion

 

[CountKaiser]

G&W is pretty **** good.

His bair is good for fencing off people, as well as pressuring people. DC dtilt is a great ground-based approach, and he can combo fairly decently.

I've noticed that stages with stationary platforms cater to G&W very well. It allows him to combo people all day long. Battlefield as a cp is too good, leads so much into nairs, uairs, and up-b's.

Also, his nair is absurdly powerful. A full nair does 17% damage, and linking 2 or 3 of these together equates to 30-50% damage.

 

[Veril]

Yes, GW's N-air is evil.

 

[cutter]

I still find it strange how an apparent glass cannon character like G&W can't reliably combo into a kill move. G&W can rack up damage all he wants, but it's not going to do anything if he can't combo into a kill move.

 

[CountKaiser]

He can certainly set up for a kill move. Dthrow still works as a techchase option. His kill moves can be used to punish various mistakes as well.

Cutter, do you have anything positive to contribute?

 

[Plum]

I still find it strange how an apparent glass cannon character like G&W can't reliably combo into a kill move. G&W can rack up damage all he wants, but it's not going to do anything if he can't combo into a kill move.

He kills the same way he killed in vBrawl, really.

That's something that we're just going to have to accept; good luck convincing that G&W needs buffs... (Kinda stinks because there is so much I would love to see, like the time it takes Chef to fling food speed up or giving Ftilt a use, but oh well)

Though really, character specific hitstun is all G&W would need to be perfect.

 

[Revven]

I still find it strange how an apparent glass cannon character like G&W can't reliably combo into a kill move. G&W can rack up damage all he wants, but it's not going to do anything if he can't combo into a kill move.

He's a wall of priority, all you need to do is Bair or Nair all day and you win (with some Dtilts thrown in around here and there and maybe some Uairs). He doesn't need to combo into a finishing move when he's got this amazing wall of priority that is hard to break through if you have no options to answer it. And if you really need to KO, mind game into a finishing move, do it like Wario would but with G&W: retreat with Bairs and SHADs or Nairs and lead it into an Fsmash or Dsmash somewhere in there when you're close enough. Or, just grab them, Dthrow and techchase them into a Usmash because you know they are going to tech it (esp. since it's so easy to tech now). It's not like G&W doesn't have any KO options, because he does, he just can't combo into them.

 

[CountKaiser]

A teched dthrow into usmash can be shielded before the smash comes out. Nowadays fsmash and dsmash are better options.

And G&W's need to be careful of people baiting nairs and bairs, as they will be punished, and that can lead into a stock.

As I said before, G&W is fine.

 

[Zodac]

f-air kills very nicely

 

[Plum]

A teched dthrow into usmash can be shielded before the smash comes out. Nowadays fsmash and dsmash are better options.

And G&W's need to be careful of people baiting nairs and bairs, as they will be punished, and that can lead into a stock.

As I said before, G&W is fine.

I think that is the biggest problem for G&W players: Having to adjust to a different playstyle.

I hated G&W at first because I couldn't play him the way I was used to and do well; everything got a lot less sloppy, DI had to get MUCH better, and everything had to be spaced as if I was playing against Marth, and adjusting my techchasing game because Usmash doesn't cut it anymore.

As far as techchasing now though, I think it is even more devilish. Dsmash is a great option because your opponent has to guess which hitbox you are going to hit them with, and if they guess wrong and hit a sourspot when they were expecting a sweetspot then they will be DIing to help the sourspot kill them, and vise versa. So evil >:D

 

[Veril]

if they guess wrong and hit a sourspot when they were expecting a sweetspot then they will be DIing to help the sourspot kill them, and vise versa. So evil >:D

Actually that isn't always true. If I'm (Jiggs probably) onstage and far enough from the edges (doesn't have to be that far) I can DI and tech the horizontal hit or it'll just be good DI for the vertical hit.

Close to the sides though... yeah, its scary.

 

[CountKaiser]

Why would you fight G&W as jiggs anyway? ;D

Well, seems G&W is finalized, so what do we talk about now? Matchups or stages?