Brawl+ G&W: Guide version 1.0 up!

[Sr. P & R]

Get ready to remake some videos, because I (mostly) fixed the bugs in the Melee Nair!

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?znzy4z2mdqg

There are a few minor issues that I will work on, but they don't occur extremely often. I had to do some weird stuff with variables (similar to Elemental Marth), but it must switch the variables much faster.

PM me or post if you find any glitches, especially those concerning the parachute closing.

EDIT: You should only have to re-record the replays w/ the new Pac, because I'm pretty sure I only made cosmetic changes.

 

[The Phenom]

Get ready to remake some videos, because I (mostly) fixed the bugs in the Melee Nair!

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?znzy4z2mdqg

There are a few minor issues that I will work on, but they don't occur extremely often. I had to do some weird stuff with variables (similar to Elemental Marth), but it must switch the variables much faster.

PM me or post if you find any glitches, especially those concerning the parachute closing.

EDIT: You should only have to re-record the replays w/ the new Pac, because I'm pretty sure I only made cosmetic changes.

LOLOL!!! I guess I have to record some more then. I'll test this out later; not so soon just yet.

Umm...how does it look like? My friend usually puts the codes in for us since he has a SD reader. I just got one yesterday and still have to learn how to use it and stuff; do you think you could do what you did last time? You know, posting a picture or two on Photobucket. That would be really cool if I could look at the changes which you made to the Nair.

 

[Sr. P & R]

LOLOL!!! I guess I have to record some more then. I'll test this out later; not so soon just yet.

Umm...how does it look like? My friend usually puts the codes in for us since he has a SD reader. I just got one yesterday and still have to learn how to use it and stuff; do you think you could do what you did last time? You know, posting a picture or two on Photobucket. That would be really cool if I could look at the changes which you made to the Nair.

It doesn't really look different, I just put in something that makes the parachute disappear if you are hit in the middle of the attack, instead of staying.



Also, would anybody like a Game & Watch moveset that combines the best of Melee and Brawl?

Maybe something like...

Melee Nair
Brawl Bair
Brawl Dair
Melee Fair
Brawl Uair

Melee Dtilt
Melee Utilt
??? Ftilt (Same?)

Brawl Smashes

Melee Uthrow
Melee B/Fthrow
Brawl Dthrow

 

[PKNintendo]

Hello GaW mains. Ness mains are currently discussing the matchup so come in.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230318

 

[The Phenom]

Sr. P & R can you bring back the Melee Down-Tilt ? This is something that I would like but you would prob. need more input from others to see if going on work on it is worth your time/goals.

 

[Sr. P & R]

Sr. P & R can you bring back the Melee Down-Tilt ? This is something that I would like but you would prob. need more input from others to see if going on work on it is worth your time/goals.

Actually, I just finished making a version based on my example moveset. I can easily change it based on any feedback I get. At this point it is a bit OP, but it is REALLY fun.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yofoyvwjnmm

Throws:

His Melee throws are awesome, they have very low Knockback with very high growth. It is possible to CG heavies and fast fallers up to about 3 times. They will easily combo into both combo and kill moves at Mid-High percents as the high growth starts to take effect.

Aerials:

His Fair is a Low-Mid knockback, somewhat fast, WoP that can combo into other aerials. Nair comes out kind of fast, has good knockback, and has a big hitbox, but it has some moderate ending lag. It can combo, kill, and edgeguard at varying percents.

Tilts:

Dtilt comes out fast and strong, but it has a lot of ending lag. Utilt has larger hitboxes for better comboing.

Smashes and Specials are the same.

 

[The Phenom]

Actually, I just finished making a version based on my example moveset. I can easily change it based on any feedback I get. At this point it is a bit OP, but it is REALLY fun.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yofoyvwjnmm

Throws:

His Melee throws are awesome, they have very low Knockback with very high growth. It is possible to CG heavies and fast fallers up to about 3 times. They will easily combo into both combo and kill moves at Mid-High percents as the high growth starts to take effect.

Aerials:

His Fair is a Low-Mid knockback, somewhat fast, WoP that can combo into other aerials. Nair comes out kind of fast, has good knockback, and has a big hitbox, but it has some moderate ending lag. It can combo, kill, and edgeguard at varying percents.

Tilts:

Dtilt comes out fast and strong, but it has a lot of ending lag. Utilt has larger hitboxes for better comboing.

Smashes and Specials are the same.

Oh wow Melee chain grabs and the downtilt is done. This is something I really look forward to doing later in this week.

 

[CountKaiser]

I must say, I like the new chef.

It makes for a good mixup, a good anti-air, can defend you when you come back to the stage, and can set up for some sweet edgeguards.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Sr. P & R]

I must say, I like the new chef.

It makes for a good mixup, a good anti-air, can defend you when you come back to the stage, and can set up for some sweet edgeguards.

What does everyone else think?

I love it!

You can use it to approach less predictably by throwing some food before a sliding Usmash, Dtilt, or almost any aerial. I've tried it a few times, and it seems like a useful thing to mix in every once in a while.

 

[The Phenom]

Chef is awesome =)

 

[omegablackmage]

don't change his moves, thats just silly. If you really needed to buff gw (you probably don't) then give him his melee dthrow, thats all you would need to do.

His only downfall right now is setups for kills then use the new chef to combo into kills, gimps, etc.

 

[Sr. P & R]

Unless you're talking about chef (which was an awesome idea, btw), I'm not trying to buff him. I just started with melee Nair for fun and it kind of just turned into a whole moveset sort of thing. I have no intentions of any of my hacks being in B+ (it would be cool to see melee nair though )

 

[The Phenom]

don't change his moves, thats just silly. If you really needed to buff gw (you probably don't) then give him his melee dthrow, thats all you would need to do.

His only downfall right now is setups for kills then use the new chef to combo into kills, gimps, etc.

This is just for fun though. And I as well wouldn't want these move hacks in the official B+

 

[Sr. P & R]

Should we start discussing matchups and techniques since Official Build 5.0 came out? Most other boards seem to be.

This board hasn't had any posts in a while, we can't let this place die

 

[CountKaiser]

Find people who play G&W so we can discuss stuff.

Is it me, or is UpB so ridiculously awesome? You can use it to get out of a jam, to follow up from a combo, to end a combo, and in rare cases, to kill if you're precise enough with it.

I love it. :D

 

[Sr. P & R]

We used to have quite a few people posting here, but not anymore I guess.

Like you said, I LOVE upB, as both an attack and a recovery. I end almost all of my combos with upB>Food.

It is great to use to finish after combos like:
Dash attack>Bair>Bair>upB
Dtilt>Fair>Fair> upB
Utilt>Utilt>Utilt>Nair>Nair>UpB>Food

I also really like using his Nair for ledgeguarding below the stage, it can easily stagespike and it gets many characters into positions that are difficult to recover from. Obviously, it is also great for combos on stages like Warioware and Battlefield.

His up, forward, and back throws seem to have too much knockback and not enough growth to be useful. I have lot of diffiulty doing anything with them.

There's my two cents worth

 

[CountKaiser]

Using Nair to ledgegaurd? Never tried that.

His Forward and Back throws can lead into a fair on FFers.

Also, weak hit of fair can combo into the strong hit of fair at higher percents, so that makes it a good edgeguard.

Also, tips for using utitl correctly, plox.

 

[Sr. P & R]

Using Nair to ledgegaurd? Never tried that.

Nair can be useful offstage if you hit them with Bair to get them below, grab the edge, and then jump off and hit them with a Nair. You can just keep jumping on the stage or the ledge and keep hitting them with it until they are too far or too low to return. It is pretty difficult to punish because of G&W's recovery, and you can easily bail if needed

Also, weak hit of fair can combo into the strong hit of fair at higher percents, so that makes it a good edgeguard.

I've also been able to combo into Uair and Nair with a weak Fair, it can be followed up by quite a few different things depending on the situation.

Also, tips for using utitl correctly, plox.

Sorry, can't help you there. I don't really use it too often, although I think you could probably use it to punish after shielding an attack.

 

[omegablackmage]

wow, there have been quite a few changes to gw since the last discussion here. mainly in his throws.

anyone still play gw that posts here?

what is everyone's opinions on the changes made to the throws?

 

[CountKaiser]

Uthrow is okay, Fthrow doesn't seem too different.

As for Bthrow, it's okay for a killing throw.

Someone get arty in here to show us how to properly bair into fsmash.

 

[omegablackmage]

well from what i can see upthrow was changed in a way to make it impossible to jump and hammer right away, but its still possible to upthrow to nair in most cases, or on lighter characters up b.

for the fthrow, its very di dependent, but not dependent much on their percent. If they di into you, they can get hammered and if they di away, probably a fair at best.

Bthrow is good for getting people way offstage, but it will only kill at like 150%. Ill take the change though because of the awful situations it can put the opponent in, especially considering how good the fair is at gimping.

Dthrow i believe has remained unchanged.

***

My changes in playstyles from vbrawl include many more hammer attempts. When maining gw in melee, i used hammers frequently because they are guaranteed in many cases off of throws. In brawl plus it is possible off of throws (directly pending bad di), or from nairs from throws. Also any time an uptilt is landed at low to mid percents, theres a good chance a hammer can be landed. Usually i can land myself a 9 once a match, which helps alot.

Gw probably has some of the best edgeguarding in the game with the dtilt, fair, and bacon. Characters like ganon, cfalc, marth, etc have very low odds of making it back to the stage.

Just a few observations to start discussions up.

 

[CountKaiser]

G&W is a beastly edgeguarder, but that is how he mainly gets kills, though Arty has somehow mastered the art of kill combos.

G&W has some great tools for spacing, and his throws were made better, but I would like to know two things.

First, how do people here get their grabs with G&W?

Second, how does one fight Ike with G&W? Ike's range + power make me cry.

 

[Plum]

Landing grabs:
There isn't a really guaranteed way to land a grab, but plenty of ways to "mindgame" a grab (that's a fun word to throw around).
Jab grab can catch somebody off guard, but its mostly a rare mixup. Trying it too often leads to punishment.

The one I've been trying to work in more often is FF Nair to grab. Works in the same way as FF Nair to Dsmash; you have to hit them with whatever part of Nair drags downwards, land before the next hitbox hits them upwards, and grab them before their character has time to recover. Leads to some fun stuff, like FF Nair > Dthow > techchased DC Fsmash. Only downside to that is that its totally dependent on hitting them with just the right hitbox of Nair, so its never truly guaranteed much like FF Nair to Dsmash.

Ike matchup... Personally I go DDD. I tried the matchup as G&W, and really it got MUCH worse from vBrawl to B+. Ike has gotten so much better, and ALR plays his strengths so stupidly well. Not much you can do against a properly spaced Ike other then wait for an opening and hope to get him off stage. Ike is hitting harder, out spacing, and killing earlier. On the plus side he is slow on startup, but his range helps make up for that a lot. As soon as you get an Ike offstage its a very easy gimp because he really has nothing to defend himself besides an airdodge that isn't putting him under a lot of risk.
Chef is effective with Ike lacking any projectile, and he's a slow character minus Side B, but Chef can knock him out of that just fine. When ever I have some free space I'll just throw out a few pieces of food into the air to give me more breathing room, and keep my space away from Ike's Fair with it. General Chef rules apply though, only use it when you know you have enough space between you two to avoid punishment.
Its really about keeping enough distance until an opening comes for you to get him offstage. Its easy from that point, but getting him off stage is a nuisance.
Definitely agree with you that Ike's range and power are not good for G&W. Swordsmen in general are not good for G&W. Marth is still Marth, MK is still MK (though no invincibility on grounded Up B is a nice help) and the Toon Link and Link matchups can only get worse when they only get better.

 

[omegablackmage]

grabs: turtle to turnaround jab to grab nets me a lot of grabs on people shielding. also bacon to grabs can work too pending on spacing.

ike: bacon, lots of it. use it to pin him down and get in on him.

 

[CountKaiser]

Also, who else thinks that G&W desperately needs his melee nair?

It CAN be done, it HAS been done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VqgSV0-HhA

Revel in it's glory.

I want this and melee dtilt.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Moveset changes are never going to be implemented towards already existing characters (if the back room wants to add Roy, and give his neutral B Marth's forward smash animation for example, that's their call). It's one of those unspoken boundaries that I hope we never have to cross. Not like his current neutral air is bad either.

If the WBR actually goes through with this or another moveset change, I will have lost all my faith in them.

Again.

But in all seriousness, what's wrong with the current nair besides a lack of nostalgia?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Absolutely nothing, except one thing.

Dux.

I dont even know how G&W does in Brawl+ anymore. I stopped when he had like 1000 frames of cooldown on his dsmash.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Absolutely nothing, except one thing.

Dux.

There are exactly zero (0) dux involved with G&W's Melee nair. I thought he already had dux on his original nair.

Aquatic dux.

I'll let the G&W players explain changes if they feel like it. He doesn't have that billion frame dsmash anymore though.

Now shoo, back to Bogus Brawl with you.

<3

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, in all honesty, not much was changed. His throws were overall made more useful, and his dtilt comes out 2 frames slower in exchange for a much more useful chef. Can't think of anything else significant. If I missed something, let me know.

As for the melee nair, that was just nostalgia talking. I honestly don't expect it to be in Brawl+, and the current nair G&W has is awesome as is. This also goes for dtilt.

 

[omegablackmage]

i would def prefer the brawl nair to be able to combo into hammers. Otherwise the only reliable way to combo into hammer is through the uptilt.

 

[GHNeko]

So yea. Bacon is awesome and GaW >>>>> ICs.

 

[Plum]

Kaiser, you need to build massive hypeM for ProjectM and all the glory that will be G&W.

 

[JCaesar]

MMM I can't wait. I despise Brawl/Brawl+ G&W but Melee G-Dubbs is teh sex.

 

[Plum]

MMM I can't wait. I despise Brawl/Brawl+ G&W but Melee G-Dubbs is teh sex.

I was just watching some of your Melee Gdub vids yesterday, good stuff.

Over winter break I'm going to hopefully be able to finish most of the work on my Melee G&W, I'll get up a DL for you to check out and if all goes well some of that will be making it in to ProjectM.

 

[JCaesar]

Woooow haha those are so old (and no replays in Melee so I had to play on a laggy monitor just to record)

G&W was my Melee main. I was so disappointed with Brawl G&W. They sucked all the fun out of him and replaced it with gay.

 

[Plum]

Taking away his delicious combo game and replacing it with highly over centralizing moves to his metagame isn't THAT gay... ._.

Who needed Melee Nair, Melee Fair, Melee Dtilt, Melee Dair, Melee Utilt, or Melee grabs anyways? What did they possibly offer G&W? /sarcasm

This isn't exactly the place for how win Gdubs was back then though, so some discussion...
How does G&W's worst matchups from vBrawl carry over?

My impressions speaking from the newest set:
Marth isn't really any worse to be honest. He has an effective combo game, but G&W gained some stuff of his own as well. The faster startup on Bacon is very nice, his strings are more legit, and Marth's recovery has taken a hit with no ASL and higher grav. Seems like to me that the matchup is going to be similar in terms of numbers, though how it plays out is going to be different.

Snake is probably easier. He is still a great character, but loosing range on his tilts and focusing his game on other aspects is going to be nice for G&W. Grenades are still a pain, but they are as avoidable as they always were. His recovery is also worse with higher grav, though C4 recovery is more effective to balance. He's in a worse spot off stage and his aerial game still can't really compete with G&W's disjointed priority. I would still put it in Snake's favor, and his defensive game is still amazing but not quite where it was in vBrawl.

The biggest change to MK's matchup is the removal of invincibility on grounded Up B. That's a great help for G&W when MK is no longer Up B'ing everything OOS with some well timed invincibility frames. That's definitely a big help but MK can still outrange G&W with his other options like Ftilt and retreating Fsmash which he can now do out of a dash. Still not a fun matchup, but not as bad as it was in vBrawl which honestly wasn't even too bad with some patience.

Diddy is my least favorite matchup. Diddy is SOOOOO good. He doesn't even need bananas to combo you to rediculous percents anymore because his entire moveset flows perfectly into itself. Bananas have near infinite priorty it seems, and more shieldstun making them even better. He still can't kill but he doesn't need to worry about that when he piles on damage so **** quickly. IMO this may be G&W's new worst matchup. Diddy is retardedly good in B+, his recovery may be worse but once he gets tempo a bad recovery isn't going to matter for him.

 

[Sterowent]

so, what's new with GaW this time around? i really like his options with the DC slide, like with his fsmash covering a bit more distance. perhaps, though, it's that he's had a dash speed upgrade? not sure...

 

[Plum]

Its the new DC code causing the big slides.

I'm fairly certain the only change to G&W is the removal of the hitlag autosnap on Up B. Haven't had a chance to check his pac, but I would doubt he has any changes anyways.

 

[omegablackmage]

i didn't really notice any changes to him.

On another note i got first at a tournament using wario/gw today, vids should be up soon.

 

[Veril]

GW is the devil. I hate both of his dimensions.

I like the Ganon vs. GW matchup in B+. Of course, using Jiggs/MK/Lucas/Ganon, Ganon is really the best choice (for me) given that everyone pretty much knows the MK matchup from vBrawl and its a lot easier for GW is B+ (massive nerfing of MK, esp up-b inv. frames nerf).