Brawl+ Faq

[Drakar]

Wow

Man what an awesome idea ill show this to my friends on youtube

 

[SketchHurricane]

Ivysaur does have a few effective combos, he looks pretty decent now.
The biggest problem is his d--- recovery.

I had a good run messing with B+ Ivy. Sadly, I don't think what he/she gains makes up for the insanely easy gimpage that still exists. That fact that they can combo off stage easier with hitstun pretty much offsets any combo he/she gains. Not to mention that the combo's themselves are pretty hard to set up. Most combos work off of the utilt or a throw, neither of which are particularly easy to land against a good player.

Definitely better, definitely funner, but not by enough IMO. But actually, I haven't tried Ivy since shield stun came out, and I know for a fact that would definitely help Ivy out.

 

[Revven]

I had a good run messing with B+ Ivy. Sadly, I don't think what he/she gains makes up for the insanely easy gimpage that still exists. That fact that they can combo off stage easier with hitstun pretty much offsets any combo he/she gains. Not to mention that the combo's themselves are pretty hard to set up. Most combos work off of the utilt or a throw, neither of which are particularly easy to land against a good player.

Definitely better, definitely funner, but not by enough IMO. But actually, I haven't tried Ivy since shield stun came out, and I know for a fact that would definitely help Ivy out.

Perhaps he would have a better recovery if we allowed him to do Up B more than once, kind of like ZSS. Then you would need to give this buff to Olimar as well (who is ALSO easily gimpable). Fortunately, it seems like we would have enough lines leftover for these two minor buffs if it's extremely necessary (I don't think it is for Ivy, especially since we may ultimately not use the PT codes, but, Olimar could definitely use it). Otherwise, I feel the last few lines should go to nerfing MK if necessary.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I had a good run messing with B+ Ivy. Sadly, I don't think what he/she gains makes up for the insanely easy gimpage that still exists. That fact that they can combo off stage easier with hitstun pretty much offsets any combo he/she gains. Not to mention that the combo's themselves are pretty hard to set up. Most combos work off of the utilt or a throw, neither of which are particularly easy to land against a good player.

Definitely better, definitely funner, but not by enough IMO. But actually, I haven't tried Ivy since shield stun came out, and I know for a fact that would definitely help Ivy out.

nah, ivy is really good now, just very very ground oriented. you can't be greedy with ivy at all unless you're really careful or else youre screeeeewed

 

[Bowser King]

For the .txt file...

1. Is it still accurate on the generally agreed codes??
2. Whenever I copy and paste the .txt file it doesn't work because the codes are listed horizontal
when the should be vertical. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

-Bowser King

 

[SketchHurricane]

Perhaps he would have a better recovery if we allowed him to do Up B more than once, kind of like ZSS. Then you would need to give this buff to Olimar as well (who is ALSO easily gimpable). Fortunately, it seems like we would have enough lines leftover for these two minor buffs if it's extremely necessary (I don't think it is for Ivy, especially since we may ultimately not use the PT codes, but, Olimar could definitely use it). Otherwise, I feel the last few lines should go to nerfing MK if necessary.

The real problem is that it's completely upwards-homo. If it could latch on from similar range and angle of ZSS or even Oli, it would be way better.

nah, ivy is really good now, just very very ground oriented. you can't be greedy with ivy at all unless you're really careful or else youre screeeeewed

I completely agree, you have to be uber patient and even more grounded than Oli. But I wouldn't call him "really good" from what I've seen. Of course, I probably just suck "Really fun" still stands though It's actually just the type of style I like in fighting games, the stand-your-ground type of characters like Oli.

 

[BEES]

If anyone's still taking suggestions, I wouldn't mind a code for double-jump canceling, say with a fast-fall.

 

[storm92]

For the .txt file...

1. Is it still accurate on the generally agreed codes??
2. Whenever I copy and paste the .txt file it doesn't work because the codes are listed horizontal
when the should be vertical. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

-Bowser King

For now yes, it is slightly outdated but the codes not included aren't completely agreed upon yet.
You are copying and pasting into your own .txt file, then opening that .txt with the Code Manager, correct?

EDIT: Bees, we plan on getting a DJC code once all physics codes are done.

 

[tsu-money]

After ready the info on Brawl+, I must say that it has intrigued me greatly. Will give it a shot once I get a copy of Twilight Princess.

 

[BEES]

EDIT: Bees, we plan on getting a DJC code once all physics codes are done.

I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding. I'm not referring to something that specifically affects yoshi and ness. I mean literally allow everyone to fastfall before they reach the peaks of their jumps.

Then the problem of short hop height/fast fall speed is moot. You could make the jump practically any height.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding. I'm not referring to something that specifically affects yoshi and ness. I mean literally allow everyone to fastfall before they reach the peaks of their jumps.

Then the problem of short hop height/fast fall speed is moot. You could make the jump practically any height.

i actually like this idea. it would be new to the smash series and would solve, like you said, the jump problem.

 

[Problem2]

So you want all the characters to be able to cancel their jumps?

And btw, Ivysaur got a lot worse in Brawl+. He didn't gain a ton of new combos, his b-air is a little more spammable with L-canceling, but when he gets off the ledge, he is GONE!

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

So you want all the characters to be able to cancel their jumps?

And btw, Ivysaur got a lot worse in Brawl+. He didn't gain a ton of new combos, his b-air is a little more spammable with L-canceling, but when he gets off the ledge, he is GONE!

how's he anymore gone than usual? o.O

 

[Roxas215]

how's he anymore gone than usual? o.O

With the added hitstun ivy is stunned longer int he air allowing him to get hit farther out which makes him unable to be in reach to grab the edge. I was playing pt in brawl+ a couple says ago and got gimped at 25%

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

With the added hitstun ivy is stunned longer int he air allowing him to get hit farther out which makes him unable to be in reach to grab the edge. I was playing pt in brawl+ a couple says ago and got gimped at 25%

this applies to every character. and ivy shouldn't that much more susceptible seeing as how he's floaty and pretty mobile and has a ton of defensive aerial options.

..from the sounds of it you're new to hitstun. maybe i'll put something in the FAQ about that.

 

[Vulcan55]

I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding. I'm not referring to something that specifically affects yoshi and ness. I mean literally allow everyone to fastfall before they reach the peaks of their jumps.

Then the problem of short hop height/fast fall speed is moot. You could make the jump practically any height.

This was brought up a while ago in a different thread. It is a very bad idea.


Also, the B+ pic in my sig is a link to this thread.

 

[Roxas215]

this applies to every character. and ivy shouldn't that much more susceptible seeing as how he's floaty and pretty mobile and has a ton of defensive aerial options.

..from the sounds of it you're new to hitstun. maybe i'll put something in the FAQ about that.

Im not new to hitstun. I was tournament level in melee.

Yes hitstun applies to ever char. But with a char like ivy who has a one time tether recovery it really hurts him even with the new ground combos he received.

 

[Osi]

At least his recovery is bumped a little since no auto sweetspot makes it harder for others to return. I admit he is a bit easy to combo far off stage, but with BAD he should be fine to return with proper DI/timing. I'm not too worried about Ivy right now since his on the stage game got much better with hitstun.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

ivy is difficult to use, and i think perhaps we could hack it so he could use his vine whip as a zair, but he's kind of like link from smash64 where he absolutely pwns face on the ground but when it comes to off stage he's going baibai

 

[Bowser King]

For now yes, it is slightly outdated but the codes not included aren't completely agreed upon yet.
You are copying and pasting into your own .txt file, then opening that .txt with the Code Manager, correct?

EDIT: Bees, we plan on getting a DJC code once all physics codes are done.

Yep, that's what I'm doing.


-Bowser King

 

[BEES]

This was brought up a while ago in a different thread. It is a very bad idea.


Also, the B+ pic in my sig is a link to this thread.

I read the threads and never saw mention of this. I'm guessing the main argument against fastfalling at any time is that it makes edgeguarding dairs extremely risky since you would fastfall whenever you initiated a dair.

However, if you make it so that pressing down cancels the jump and initiates a regular-speed fall, you could do aerials safely off the edge, with the option of pressing down again to fastfall them.

As far as I can see it adds depth.
-more shield pressuring options
-more short-hop height options
-a lot less 'floaty'
-rewards more skilled players with better control over the height of their jumps

It also allows you to attack at times when it is currently impossible. Suppose your character is the asterisk, and the flat line is the stage.



*




_____#__________


You cannot attack in this position. Here's why:
Option 1 - you fastfall and attack. The timing on this will be predictable because your jump ends at a certain time. Your opponent can anticipate and punish.
Option 2 - you double-jump, then fastfall, then attack. This is also predictable because double jumps last a certain amount of time, and it's game protracting, because they're slow and floaty.
Option 3 - you attack right away in the air, to protect your position. This forfeits your chance to attack again when you hit the ground, and you have to DI or airdodge away from your opponent. The ending lag on your first aerial leaves no time for a second.

Messing with the short hop height might make it easier to pillar and juggle, but it does nothing for you when you full hop.

This is a problem the series has always had. I don't recall any laws saying we can only add things that were in Melee. We can make more creative improvements than that.

 

[Vulcan55]

It makes short-hopping, at all, pointless.
Why time your aerials, when you can just FF and end them whenever you want to?
Just spam Wario's, Super SH, FF, ALC, DAir alllllll dai.
No doubt that would lead to many infinites, wall infinites, and "chain-XAirs".

 

[storm92]

It makes short-hopping, at all, pointless.
Why time your aerials, when you can just FF and end them whenever you want to?
Just spam Wario's, Super SH, FF, ALC, DAir alllllll dai.
No doubt that would lead to many infinites, wall infinites, and "chain-XAirs".

This.
zxeon suggested it I believe in either Code Agenda or Brawl+ General Thread, and we had a small discussion over it.
Basically what he said, as well as it that being way too much control.

 

[BEES]

It makes short-hopping, at all, pointless.
Why time your aerials, when you can just FF and end them whenever you want to?
Just spam Wario's, Super SH, FF, ALC, DAir alllllll dai.
No doubt that would lead to many infinites, wall infinites, and "chain-XAirs".

You know that's not true, since we already have a code that gives everyone aerials just above the ground, and at worst this would be the same thing. That was the intended effect we were going for.

So I'll just run through the points:
-Short hops would be safe. We wouldn't set the window to the ENTIRE jump, just extend it a lot earlier. Say, halfway to the top of the hop. The territory you could cover from a full hop and a short hop would be mutually exclusive. You would HAVE to know how to short hop to land aerials just above the stage.

-the aerials would be subject to the same mechanical limitations as the faster fastfall/shorter shorthop system. No, YOU COULD NOT SPAM INFINITE BAIRS or other crap. You could pressure shields, but there would still be vulnerable frames.
-as far as tech skill goes, this leaves more margin of error, but it also requires an extra 'down' motion on the analog to take full advantage of the fastfall, otherwise it will be Brawl height, so the mechanical difficulty is about the same.

-It requires less of a deviation from Brawl's physics, since only a timing window changes. Short-hop height, fastfall speed, with other gravity changes thrown in: that amounts to open-heart surgery compared to just a root canal.

-It would almost definitely take less lines of code.

-We can try it to see how it feels. If it does not work out, no harm done. The window can always be tweaked--shortened or lengthened, to get the desired effect.

Control is a good thing. It is very difficult to have too much of it. That's what gives the game depth in the first place.

 

[PinkPwnageFrenzy]

Something I noticed is that, and was touched upon earlier, is that a lot of the chaingrabs are removed from B+, due to the hitstun. To some, that means "Yay, no Falco/DeDeDe/Pit/otherpeople chaingrabs!" to others, it's "#@!$ no chaingrabs". Grab releases are unaffected, as are the IC's alt grabs, I think (haven't tested, I am terrible at using them).

At first, I was like "Wow, B+ is sweet" but then I found out you can't CG. As a Dedede main, that upset me a bit , but now I'm back to the "Wow, B+ is sweet" mindset.

Thanks for the hard work.

 

[storm92]

Something I noticed is that, and was touched upon earlier, is that a lot of the chaingrabs are removed from B+, due to the hitstun. To some, that means "Yay, no Falco/DeDeDe/Pit/otherpeople chaingrabs!" to others, it's "#@!$ no chaingrabs". Grab releases are unaffected, as are the IC's alt grabs, I think (haven't tested, I am terrible at using them).

At first, I was like "Wow, B+ is sweet" but then I found out you can't CG. As a Dedede main, that upset me a bit , but now I'm back to the "Wow, B+ is sweet" mindset.

Thanks for the hard work.

Sweet man, welcome to the community. =D
As you found, DDD is plenty good without his CG, he can build up damage just as well.

 

[Tino's White Horse]

What is this I don’t even

Also, for accuracy’s sake, you are essentially adding what was in Melee to brawl. Melee came BEFORE Brawl, so you’re going back.

Therefore, it should be called Brawl-.

 

[johe]

What is this I don’t even

Also, for accuracy’s sake, you are essentially adding what was in Melee to brawl. Melee came BEFORE Brawl, so you’re going back.

Therefore, it should be called Brawl-.

Might I suggest you look at this:

2) Why shouldn't I just go play Melee instead?
Despite our efforts to bring features that were in Melee into Brawl, these are mechanics that were present throughout the Smash Bros series that were strangely left out for Brawl's release. We believe those mechanics are imperative to a unique game such as Smash Brothers, and after extensive testing with these changes in place, many of us find the game a lot more enjoyable. You won't have the metagame, the characters or the stages if you played Melee. Also, if you are anything like me, you camped out for your wii and checked the dojo every night. Why should all that effort go to waste?

If this wasn't a serious question (as I suspect it isn't) and was just you trolling because you don't like the idea behind Brawl+, then I why are you posting here?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

What is this I don’t even

Also, for accuracy’s sake, you are essentially adding what was in Melee to brawl. Melee came BEFORE Brawl, so you’re going back.

Therefore, it should be called Brawl-.

get out

 

[zxeon]

What is this I don’t even

Also, for accuracy’s sake, you are essentially adding what was in Melee to brawl. Melee came BEFORE Brawl, so you’re going back.

Therefore, it should be called Brawl-.

You're Posting under the assumption that Bwral made actual progress. Which it didn't.

 

[Tino's White Horse]

Curses. Foiled again.

But speaking seriously, I find this whole idea of Brawl+ idiotic and dolorous. However, I respect your decision and choose to let you play the game the way you want as long as it isn’t forced. Just like I won’t force my disdain of it to you.

Enjoy your Brawl Addition.

 

[storm92]

Curses. Foiled again.

But speaking seriously, I find this whole idea of Brawl+ idiotic and dolorous. However, I respect your decision and choose to let you play the game the way you want as long as it isn’t forced. Just like I won’t force my disdain of it to you.

Enjoy your Brawl Addition.

Just like how we find sticking to Brawl idiotic and dolorous.
So thanks for your opinion, we don't care.

 

[johe]

Hey Jiang, maybe you should put a disclamer in the first post that this thread is not for voicing opinions.

Might stop some of the weaker willed trolls

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Curses. Foiled again.

But speaking seriously, I find this whole idea of Brawl+ idiotic and dolorous. However, I respect your decision and choose to let you play the game the way you want as long as it isn’t forced. Just like I won’t force my disdain of it to you.

Enjoy your Brawl Addition.

how kind of you

knowing that a omniscient, and apparently benevolent entity such as yourself has so kindly abstained from preventing this project to proceed fills my heart with utter joy and relief

 

[Tino's White Horse]

how kind of you

knowing that a omniscient, and apparently benevolent entity such as yourself has so kindly abstained from preventing this project to proceed fills my heart with utter joy and relief

I am stern yet benevolent.

 

[shanus]

All who speak out against B+ should not voice an opinion until they have tried out the most recent agreed upon codesets. Its just too much fun.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

this thread was merely meant to educate those so we don't need to repeat our answers. that being said, it is inevitable that people will voice their opinions about why they feel this is wrong.

i don't mind.

 

[Shadic]

I am stern yet benevolent.

You're also dull and insignificant.

And have you even tried playing with the codes? Because if not, you may as well inexperienced in there, as well.

 

[Tabris-]

I think this is pretty cool.

I got bored of Brawl because it was too slow, and well, boring to play online since everyone else I knew who played Brawl got bored of it quicker than I did.

It'd be nice if it mixed things up between Brawl and Melee a bit more. Like having stale moves still on, which would help to create a bit more variety in someone's gameplay, rather than having it off and having some people spam the same moves over and over again in the guise of a combo.

This is from a totally casual standpoint.

Oh, just as a quick question. The no-auto sweetspotting thing, is that only to grab onto ledges with Up+B? Or does it include things like sweetspotting Zelda's aerial attacks and stuff??

 

[storm92]

It's for grabbing onto ledges with characters' third jumps. ^