Brawl, Evolving into melee?

[Blatt Blvd]

If we all just think of Brawl as the 1st smash(since tech wise, 64 is more advanced than Brawl) it's not that bad.

Melee is the newest smash everyone.

Also, the only thing in Melee that was accidental was wavedashing.

And even that's arguable.

The Devs seen it(wavedashing) was in the game(we know this from AR) and they left it in.

Everything else just got taken to a level Sakurai couldn't handle(in Melee).

Sakurai is just an a$$hole, like Nintendo.

The games on the Wii are only about "everyone" being able to play.

 

[Nic64]

presentation is somewhat superficial, especially given that melee wasn't really an ugly game itself, just a generation younger...the soundtrack really isn't much better than melee's if it even is, the zelda, metroid, and mario remixes account for like 60% of the good, non direct rip songs it has, that's not good news especially considering that the themes are stage locked. many of the better stages have no good music. content? in terms of quantity, yeah, it has more of everything, less of anything that's actually worth the time.

 

[Zodiac]

You do that by developing the meta game. Saying that before it's even a year is BS.



1 on 1 competitive
Melee>Brawl

Everything else
Brawl>Melee

let me fix that for you

1 on 1 competitive
Melee>Brawl

Everything else
Melee>Brawl

 

[Wind Owl]

This thread is going downhill rulrul fast...

 

[Zelareth]

I feel the hacks are pointless. Although Sakurai did intend for Melee to be "not competitive", it has been known for a while that the devs did know about wavedashing and kept L-cancelling on purpose, etc. As for Brawl, they went out of their way to attempt to remove the advanced tech factor and, of course, introduced the infamous tripping to add what he felt would be a "random fun factor" to the game. In my opinon, Melee was left with its ATs for some reason unknown but left the option to be competitve. Brawl was designed to be casual, had as much ***** in the competitve aspect as they could come up with, though they can never account for everything, and quite bluntly it does a good job of killing that competitve play. As a casual game, I will admit, even as a Melee player, that it can be fun. But it was meant to be casual, not competitive, and hey I'd say it does what it was intended to well.

 

[ranmaru]

I agree. So, I think its fine that this project is going, its like this:

Melee> Brawl+>64>Brawl. ;3

Also, I would play Brawl+ anytime, but not seriously, because it won't be tournie standard, and thats why I'll still be practicing Melee, even though I haven't been there since it came out. Brawl is fun, as Zelareth said, but only casually. I feel lonely because most of my friends who have played melee (and were good players as well) dropped it and "Never would look back". Then, since I don't have a Wii, after a while, obviously they will be better than me. They probaly have found ways to compete, and I get frustrated because all of them were doing greatly against me.

I felt like a jerk. I was always the one to want one vs one matches, but then, after brawl, and when I noticed that, I wanted to play 3ways and 4ways. Wow, what a loser I am... : <

 

[Chis]

let me fix that for you

1 on 1 competitive
Melee>Brawl

Everything else
Brawl>Melee

That's what I said.

And yes Wind Owl is right, down hill.

 

[chaddd]

I'm not sure when people are going to understand this.

Games DO NOT die just because a sequel was released or is "better". In this case, the sequel is complete and total garbage.

No game will ever die as long as there a decent sized following. Most games maintain that following forever simply for the reasons it developed it.

For reference, people still hold 64 tournaments, there are still Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 tournaments run all across the country. Melee is never going to die. Just like Marvel vs Capcom 2, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, and Street Fighter Alpha.

I don't understand this stupid attitude in this community that assumes we should immediately push any old games out and consider them 'dead'. Have you not noticed that the Street Fighter community always has like 15 games to choose from when they throw a big tournament? That's because a sequel isn't a reason to abandon a game for them.

Case and point? You could hack Brawl all day and increase the game speed, take out tripping, whatever.

A pile of steaming trash isn't any more appealing because you managed to make a flower grow on top.

 

[Zodiac]

I just played Brawl+, its more fun but.... its still brawl.

 

[LatexRhombus]

what's the argument here...melee can't die...it was never even alive -_-

with this truth, don't bother to change brawl cuz it will still suck...just play melee on account of it is not dead...

 

[BrawlLover]

it seems like it, which is why people are holding brawl+ tournaments

 

[metaXzero]

You do that by developing the meta game. Saying that before it's even a year is BS.

Developing regular Brawl's metagame isn't going to give us hitstun, wavedashing, and L-canceling (or anything resembling these ATs). And hasn't it already been said that IF YOU LIKE REGULAR BARLW, PLAY IT AND STOP WHINING TO HACKORS! *sigh*

Turns out, even with the hitstun hack, Brawl Falcon still blows due to his moves having to much knockback now. And no, Brawl+ with hitstun is not Melee.

 

[Zjiin]

People keep trying to add things that made melee great to Brawl thinking it's a solution, but Brawl's mechanics don't NEED what melee needed. Instead of trying to change it to melee, which Brawl purist wil fight against, why not concentrate on just improving brawl's game play in an original sense?

If you're gonna hack a game, hack it to make it better, not hack it to make it close to another game YOU ALREADY OWN.

 

[metaXzero]

People keep trying to add things that made melee great to Brawl thinking it's a solution, but Brawl's mechanics don't NEED what melee needed. Instead of trying to change it to melee, which Brawl purist wil fight against, why not concentrate on just improving brawl's game play in an original sense?

If you're gonna hack a game, hack it to make it better, not hack it to make it close to another game YOU ALREADY OWN.

Brawl purist will fight against hacks period.

Brawl with hitstun, L-canceling, and Melee's airdodge is still not Melee. Though it technically does make the game better (or at least L-canceling and hitstun does, WD is debatable.

Also, name a way of "improving brawl's gameplay in an original sense".

 

[Zjiin]

Brawl purist will fight against hacks period.

Brawl with hitstun, L-canceling, and Melee's airdodge is still not Melee. Though it technically does make the game better (or at least L-canceling and hitstun does, WD is debatable.

Also, name a way of "improving brawl's gameplay in an original since".

lol, I knew someone was going to ask that. I mean, stuff like, since there's really no edgeguarding, make a hack so someone can grab a ledge that someone else is already on and knock them off, or something like that. It might not be the best example, but i think you know what i mean.

 

[metaXzero]

lol, I knew someone was going to ask that. I mean, stuff like, since there's really no edgeguarding, make a hack so someone can grab a ledge that someone else is already on and knock them off, or something like that. It might not be the best example, but i think you know what i mean.

That doesn't really sound interesting enough to want to hack it in.

IIRC, Magus suggested a special L-cancel code that when done, removes all lag but weakens your shield if brought up. That's more interesting.

 

[Zjiin]

Yeah, well you get my point though. I'm not one to care for Brawl hacks, after all, it's still just Brawl. I'm just sick of people like "OOOOH EMM GEEE, wavedashing in BRAWL?! Melee is going down!!!!!"

 

[TrikELotus]

You do that by developing the meta game. Saying that before it's even a year is BS.

I dont like any of your posts, really. But I suppose the only one that will make sense to someone of your understanding of competitive play is this:

64 and Melee were deep enough to develop. Melee 's technical aspect opened up so many new combos, and had enough speed for just outright 0-death combos, and there was room to mindgame your opponent.

They just did. It just happened. Brawl, however, was INTENTIONALLY made to remove these things. There are no true combos, its so broken that character matchups actually matter much more than in Melee, and really, its hardly fast enough for any real mind games.

Brawl is good for casuals, but, it doesn't compare competitively, it never will. It was made to remove any real competitive play.

 

[Wind Owl]

We're already trying to do what Zijin suggested; we've kicked around ideas like throw cancels (similar to L-cancels) that allow followups to throws (since throws bah-low in Brawl), and also a button for grab releases so if you're going to grab release combo at least you don't have to wait like 5 seconds for it.

 

[metaXzero]

Just sharing.

Closest Fox is to his former glory lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH1W6rhT1vU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFL-8x9dR0g

 

[~Peachy~]

On a side note, I'm amazed the Melee boards are so united and thinking with one mind.Have some cookies as a reward!!

 

[ranmaru]

Mmm yummy *eats some cookies* Thank you. :3

 

[Wind Owl]

On a side note, I'm amazed the Melee boards are so united and thinking with one mind.Have some cookies as a reward!!

Doesn't typing/pasting all those hearts and always setting the color to pink get tiresome?

 

[~Peachy~]

Too be honest.... no! ^__^

It's become a fun habit of mine! And you're quite welcome Mr. Sumo!

 

[Zodiac]

People keep trying to add things that made melee great to Brawl thinking it's a solution, but Brawl's mechanics don't NEED what melee needed. Instead of trying to change it to melee, which Brawl purist wil fight against, why not concentrate on just improving brawl's game play in an original sense?

If you're gonna hack a game, hack it to make it better, not hack it to make it close to another game YOU ALREADY OWN.

There's nothing pure about brawl..LOL..Seriously though Brawl does NOT need wave dashing, it can keep its multiple air dodges, the ONLY things it absolutely needs to be a better game is Shield Canceling(Or L-canceling but shield canceling is far more fun) no tripping and a weaker shield, that way we have have these things.

1.Faster gameplay
2.Camping is no longer promoted
3.**** YOU TRIPPING

what I am currently experimenting with is the gravity modifier for each character, more gravity and hit stun are two things that would be really really really nice to have, and honestly if there was no tripping, no broken shield system and l-cancel in the original game, it would have done leaps and bounds better among the competitive crowd on its release. So we put those three things in brawl and its already a game that I would choose to play competitively.

And honestly the brawl "purist" shouldn't be so pissed about the shield/L-cancel hack, it only speeds up the game and makes it more exciting. They mostly support the not tripping mod because tripping is stupid and a downgrade from previous games.. well guess what! NO LAG CANCELING SYSTEM IS ALSO A DOWNGRADE "PURISTS" and just before the game was released the l-cancel was taken out. and I KNOW all the brawl purists wouldn't have been at all pissed to find out that they could make they're aerials faster and chain combos together if it was in the final release.

its more accurate to say brawl is evolving into a better game rather than say its evolving into melee.

 

[ranmaru]

Cool, I think its fine for this, to be able to make Brawl more competitive then it is. Seriously, easiest example, is taking out tripping. Quite interesting.

 

[Zjiin]

Tripping is the LEAST of Brawl's problems.

 

[Sh0ckwave]

Tripping is the LEAST of Brawl's problems.

Nah, tripping's a pretty big problem. But I agree, there are a hell of a lot of other problems.

 

[ZeroFox]

Yeah that would certainly help Brawl become more competitive.

But honestly, I feel like one of the only die hard competitive Melee players who doesn't feel too horrible about how Brawl turned out. I like it, and I still think that it has competitive potential. Maybe not up to the level of Melee, but its got it.

 

[PCHU]

Brawl seems to be evolving.
Sadly enough, with all these "improvements", people are still whining their heads off about pointless crap.
Can't we just sit back and enjoy a game?

You act as if Melee is some sort of ice cream snickers bar and Brawl is like gum you find beneath cafeteria tables.
Brawl isn't really that bad.
As a matter of fact, it's great.
NOTICE: I said Brawl is great, and I SAID NOTHING BAD ABOUT MELEE.
They are both awesome games.

Brawl is too slow?
At least you have more aerial control and more balanced characters.
I am well aware that some characters like Metaknight and Snake "ruin the game", but do not forget that you wanted a challenge.
No game is perfect; Melee's Sheik and Marth come to mind.
Fox is at the top of the tier list...and yet several Foxes are being destroyed each day by other characters.
Same goes for Brawl's MK.

Brawl lacks competitive potential?
You couldn't be farther from the truth.
With better characters comes more competition, and with less ways of mobility and speed, you must come up with more strategies.
Strategy (to many people) seems to make Brawl sound like an turn-based RPG.
That's where people go wrong: You have to think and react quick when you're getting your tail handed to you in ANY situation.
AND...
There are still advanced techniques that, in most situations, must be applied to win.
Chaingrabbing is vital in many matchups.
And then, some complain that chaingrabbing is too "cheap/broken" etc.
But the thing is that IT'S IN MELEE AS WELL.
Sure, you could DI certain ways in Melee, making it more difficult to chain.
And yet at the competitive level most of us are at now, it's nothing.
Basically enough, Melee chaingrabbing skill is comparable to Brawl's inescapable changrabs.
Make sense?

I'm not insulting either game.
I prefer Brawl as much as Melee.
Granted Brawl IS a slower game, but it's still like this: Either you ARE BETTER or YOU AREN'T.
Brawl does seem to make the gap smaller, but either you've got skill or you don't.
You should be able to win in any situation, and whining about Brawl's speed and lack of ATs doesn't help you at all.
And I like Melee as well.
Fast-paced battles run rampant.
It takes much skill to compete at a pro level in Melee.
But the aforementioned concept still remains.
If some newbie just drops by and kills you at Melee, you can't blame anything.
Obviously you're not doing something right.

Both games have something to offer.
Melee isn't the best game ever, and Brawl isn't the scum of the earth.
Both require some amount of skill to play.
You have to time things correctly in both.
You must find a sensible way of approaching in both.
No matter which way you put it, it's has been and always will be Smash.
Smash=Smash.

And someone is probably going to copy this in a quote and edit this, replying with "fix'd" in their post.
I don't care, my post is still the same, and so is the meaning.

 

[Zjiin]

You act as if Melee is some sort of ice cream snickers bar and Brawl is like gum you find beneath cafeteria tables.
Brawl isn't really that bad.
As a matter of fact, it's great.
NOTICE: I said Brawl is great, and I SAID NOTHING BAD ABOUT MELEE.
They are both awesome games.

lol, sorry Brawl is garbage. Calling it "great" is simply laughable.

Brawl is too slow?
At least you have more aerial control and more balanced characters.
I am well aware that some characters like Metaknight and Snake "ruin the game", but do not forget that you wanted a challenge.
No game is perfect; Melee's Sheik and Marth come to mind.
Fox is at the top of the tier list...and yet several Foxes are being destroyed each day by other characters.
Same goes for Brawl's MK.

You said more balanced characters, and then right after, point out how unbalanced some of the characters are. I don't remember the melee community ever planning on banning anyone.

Brawl lacks competitive potential?
You couldn't be farther from the truth.
With better characters comes more competition, and with less ways of mobility and speed, you must come up with more strategies.
Strategy (to many people) seems to make Brawl sound like an turn-based RPG.
That's where people go wrong: You have to think and react quick when you're getting your tail handed to you in ANY situation.
AND...
There are still advanced techniques that, in most situations, must be applied to win.
Chaingrabbing is vital in many matchups.
And then, some complain that chaingrabbing is too "cheap/broken" etc.
But the thing is that IT'S IN MELEE AS WELL.
Sure, you could DI certain ways in Melee, making it more difficult to chain.
And yet at the competitive level most of us are at now, it's nothing.
Basically enough, Melee chaingrabbing skill is comparable to Brawl's inescapable changrabs.
Make sense?

This is so wrong. First of all, Nintendo MADE brawl to be uncompetitive. You can't argue that becasue they really really worked on trying to keep people alive as long as they could. A game with no combos, but tons of chaingrabs? LOL. Melee's chain grabs do not compare to brawl, since in Brawl, everyone stays alive for much much longer, making a 0-death CG way too overpowered. You simply just get too much of an advantage.

I'm not insulting either game.
I prefer Brawl as much as Melee.
Granted Brawl IS a slower game, but it's still like this: Either you ARE BETTER or YOU AREN'T.
Brawl does seem to make the gap smaller, but either you've got skill or you don't.
You should be able to win in any situation, and whining about Brawl's speed and lack of ATs doesn't help you at all.
And I like Melee as well.
Fast-paced battles run rampant.
It takes much skill to compete at a pro level in Melee.
But the aforementioned concept still remains.
If some newbie just drops by and kills you at Melee, you can't blame anything.
Obviously you're not doing something right.

I quit Brawl, and i was winning tourneys. I'm sick of the arguement that "you don't like brawl becasue you're not good" which is usually ironically made by peopel who don't win tournaments. The game's mechanics make it a good party game, but a bad fighitng game. Get over it because all the justification you throw out, doens't change that.

Both games have something to offer.
Melee isn't the best game ever, and Brawl isn't the scum of the earth.
Both require some amount of skill to play.
You have to time things correctly in both.
You must find a sensible way of approaching in both.
No matter which way you put it, it's has been and always will be Smash.
Smash=Smash.

The amount of effort and practice between the two is night and day. You keep saying you're not trying to pit the two games agianst each other, but you keep comparing them. If this is honestly what you think, you must have been terrible at Melee, and maybe even terrible at Brawl. (no offense)

 

[PCHU]

lol, sorry Brawl is garbage. Calling it "great" is simply laughable.



You said more balanced characters, and then right after, point out how unbalanced some of the characters are. I don't remember the melee community ever planning on banning anyone.



This is so wrong. First of all, Nintendo MADE brawl to be uncompetitive. You can't argue that becasue they really really worked on trying to keep people alive as long as they could. A game with no combos, but tons of chaingrabs? LOL. Melee's chain grabs do not compare to brawl, since in Brawl, everyone stays alive for much much longer, making a 0-death CG way too overpowered. You simply just get too much of an advantage.



I quit Brawl, and i was winning tourneys. I'm sick of the arguement that "you don't like brawl becasue you're not good" which is usually ironically made by peopel who don't win tournaments. The game's mechanics make it a good party game, but a bad fighitng game. Get over it because all the justification you throw out, doens't change that.



The amount of effort and practice between the two is night and day. You keep saying you're not trying to pit the two games agianst each other, but you keep comparing them. If this is honestly what you think, you must have been terrible at Melee, and maybe even terrible at Brawl. (no offense)

I take no offense.
I play Melee at a semi-pro level (I've got to get reverse SHL down).
In Brawl, I'm honestly not sure where I stand.
I've got reflexes, timing, and mingames.
I guess semi-pro again.

I guess I over-explained my point.
My point was that they're both good games, what the heck is so bad about Brawl that makes it garbage?
Its speed?
That's a pretty sorry excuse; there are tons of great games that are slow.
I'm just not seeing exactly where they went wrong in Brawl besides taking out the advanced techniques.

And another thing.
Why blame Sakurai for this (never said you did, but even so)?
Nintendo in and of itself seems to be taking the casual route as well.
People are so sucked in to graphics and features that the game is ruined.
Not to say that I think Brawl is ruined, but I know that it could've been better.
Same goes for Melee.

 

[Mew2King]

i have played hacked brawl, with the slight increase in weight, hitstun, new air dodge, and it SUCKS. It's really really really bad, and cannot be played the same way. As much as I love melee stuff and support all those things, it just FAILS when it's done in brawl for some reason. The regular gameplay is way better, and everyone at that tourney agreed with me (about 15 people)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i dont understand why they're even trying to make brawl melee. whats so hard about just playing melee instead >.>

 

[ranmaru]

Hmmm, I see. Is it a bit better than the un-hacked brawl? Or just about the same? Well my guess is they want to make brawl better, not make into melee, but like it. Its understandable, actually.

 

[nice1]

guess we'll have melee 2.00 like people want

 

[ranmaru]

I think its more like Brawl 1.2

 

[Zjiin]

guess we'll have melee 2.00 like people want

Calling any version of Brawl "Melee 2.0" is a joke. Even with scubtastic hacks, it is, and never will be comparable.

 

[metaXzero]

i dont understand why they're even trying to make brawl melee. whats so hard about just playing melee instead >.>

*sigh* Some people wanted Brawl's newcomers (and in lesser cases like me, some buffed veterans like Kirby) along with Melee's gameplay. I'll of course continue playing Melee too. Melee Falcon izz t3h s3x.

Mew2King. Were you playing with any of the lag cancel hacks? And any vids (probably not).

 

[5ive]

Brawl seems to be evolving.
Sadly enough, with all these "improvements", people are still whining their heads off about pointless crap.
Can't we just sit back and enjoy a game?

You act as if Melee is some sort of ice cream snickers bar and Brawl is like gum you find beneath cafeteria tables.
Brawl isn't really that bad.
As a matter of fact, it's great.
NOTICE: I said Brawl is great, and I SAID NOTHING BAD ABOUT MELEE.
They are both awesome games.

Brawl is too slow?
At least you have more aerial control and more balanced characters.
I am well aware that some characters like Metaknight and Snake "ruin the game", but do not forget that you wanted a challenge.
No game is perfect; Melee's Sheik and Marth come to mind.
Fox is at the top of the tier list...and yet several Foxes are being destroyed each day by other characters.
Same goes for Brawl's MK.

Brawl lacks competitive potential?
You couldn't be farther from the truth.
With better characters comes more competition, and with less ways of mobility and speed, you must come up with more strategies.
Strategy (to many people) seems to make Brawl sound like an turn-based RPG.
That's where people go wrong: You have to think and react quick when you're getting your tail handed to you in ANY situation.
AND...
There are still advanced techniques that, in most situations, must be applied to win.
Chaingrabbing is vital in many matchups.
And then, some complain that chaingrabbing is too "cheap/broken" etc.
But the thing is that IT'S IN MELEE AS WELL.
Sure, you could DI certain ways in Melee, making it more difficult to chain.
And yet at the competitive level most of us are at now, it's nothing.
Basically enough, Melee chaingrabbing skill is comparable to Brawl's inescapable changrabs.
Make sense?

I'm not insulting either game.
I prefer Brawl as much as Melee.
Granted Brawl IS a slower game, but it's still like this: Either you ARE BETTER or YOU AREN'T.
Brawl does seem to make the gap smaller, but either you've got skill or you don't.
You should be able to win in any situation, and whining about Brawl's speed and lack of ATs doesn't help you at all.
And I like Melee as well.
Fast-paced battles run rampant.
It takes much skill to compete at a pro level in Melee.
But the aforementioned concept still remains.
If some newbie just drops by and kills you at Melee, you can't blame anything.
Obviously you're not doing something right.

Both games have something to offer.
Melee isn't the best game ever, and Brawl isn't the scum of the earth.
Both require some amount of skill to play.
You have to time things correctly in both.
You must find a sensible way of approaching in both.
No matter which way you put it, it's has been and always will be Smash.
Smash=Smash.

And someone is probably going to copy this in a quote and edit this, replying with "fix'd" in their post.
I don't care, my post is still the same, and so is the meaning.

Best Response Ever
*Wipes tear off eye*