Brawl+ Character Balance Discussion: Character 6: GANONDORF

[GHNeko]

Heavy Armor. Not super armor. >_<

 

[cobaltblue]

Optional sword set that can be switched out by taunt (side taunt would be perfect).

 

[trojanpooh]

I agree with everyone who is worried about everyone becoming the same character. I really liked how Bowser was handled. He was designed to be a tank, so he was given "thick skin" and better KB. Sure a bit was done to help him where he was hurting, but that was only because it was a huge issue. We should do the same for Ganon, help him a bit where he needs it, but put most of his buffs into giving him more raw power.

 

[RazeveX]

how to make ganon top tier without any effort:

make utilt come out on frame 1

 

[The Cape]

For the up tilt I think I can throw out my suggestion again:

Make the move about 5 times faster, then lower the damage and KB on it. This way you can use the suck in and do a bit of damage and then possibly combo off it like a real tilt.

 

[CRASHiC]

Gannon can be seen as a tank and a sweeper. He's like Rhyhorn.
Giving him speed would be pointless and silly, the goal is to make a balanced game where you have many different play styles. Giving him speed would be like giving Sonic power.
One idea is to give him his own kind of aura, using that shadow ****. These could have very light knock back, but could be the ideal set ups for combos for his generally slow moves.

 

[illinialex24]

Make his fair do more damage and knockback and can you reduce the lag on his B-side?

 

[MoblinMan]

I love the possibility of a less laggy murder quake out of shield.

Can you tech out of both grounded and aerial versions of gerudo?

 

[Mr.-0]

I say give him super armor here and there ( this has been said many times. ) and make his side b untechable so you can infinitely chainchoke. ALso, add super armor to it.

 

[jokey665]

For some reason I think it would be awesome if his down air had the same effect as DK's side-b on a standing opponent.

 

[The Cape]

For the Wizard's Foot.

- What about making the grounded one winddown faster so you can combo off it (like you can when it ends in the air)
- Make the aerial one always meteor
- Less landing lag on the aerial one

 

[Greenpoe]

I agree with everyone who is worried about everyone becoming the same character. I really liked how Bowser was handled. He was designed to be a tank, so he was given "thick skin" and better KB. Sure a bit was done to help him where he was hurting, but that was only because it was a huge issue. We should do the same for Ganon, help him a bit where he needs it, but put most of his buffs into giving him more raw power.

But Bowser's thick skin has since been removed, hasn't it?

How about giving Gannon some constant heavy armor? 1-2% of constant heavy armor would make him good at counterattacking vs. jabs. Vastly buffing his down B grounded knockback and turning his aerial down B into a decent spike would be good too.

 

[trojanpooh]

Unfortunately, yes Bowser's thick skin has been removed. The point was that at the time of its inclusion, it was an awesome and creative way to buff Bowser.

 

[lordhelmet]

Character 6? What were the previous 5?

 

[The Cape]

Bowser thick skin was removed due to space constraints. Now that we dont have that, it may make a come back.

 

[trojanpooh]

Cool, it would be cool if more of the heavy characters had similar things. What if Ganon took the same % as normal, but got a slightly reduced KB? Or maybe his Shield could be stronger? Maybe he could be strong against projectiles somehow? I don't know what exactly, I'm just brainstorming here, but it would be cool if each tank had some sort of special armor that made them just a little more of a tank.

 

[leafgreen386]

You already know the move isn't broken at all. We can techchase on reaction, but it takes almost frame perfect timing on most characters, and doesn't even work on half the cast in the first place. And even with that... We're still just above Falcon in the vBrawl tier list.

If you can't fix the techability of it, it definitely needs the speed buff.

Well, I'm perfectly aware that the move isn't broken now, since it's easy to avoid. However, if the whole thing was sped up, it would be considerably easier to land, hence where the problems could begin. The first thing he needs with this move is the ability to move before they reach the ground, allowing an instant response to their tech (predicted or otherwise). But then I also have the move being sped up when he's rushing forward, too. I just don't want murder choke -> techchase using murder choke to be too easy. It should be easily possible if you predict their tech, but I'd rather see him connect with other moves (like dash attack) if he's going to techchase someone on reaction.

Just think about it, you'd be fixing the second-worst move in the game! Warlock Punch is the worst, but I honestly think that WP shouldn't be fixed... It's a pretty lulzy move, like Falcon Punch. You wouldn't try to fix Falcon Punch either because it's just too good.

Haha. Yes. It would be amazing to make his utilt useful (outside of an extremely risky and situational edgeguard move that you're better off doing something else 99% of the time). Either through IASA frames or cape's suggestion would make the move leagues better.

How much momentum does Ganondorf have in vBrawl? 50%? I honestly don't know much about momentum since the 3.3 PAL Plussery code has faulty momentum codes. :/

Momentum is new to brawl+. Most characters have 92.5% momentum, while a few like lucario have less than that. Ganon got some of the most momentum from a jump in the game, and although he still gets some good distance off of it now, I feel that he'd play considerably smoother with full momentum.

I agree on this, although I do want to comment on how dumb it is that a character that has a full suit of armor doesn't have super armor frames. >_> But I think that with all these buffs it wouldn't really be necessary.

Yet they decide to give wario SA frames. Logic sadly does not always prevail. But yeah, adding armour frames (of any kind) is something I really feel we shouldn't be doing.

For the Wizard's Foot.

- What about making the grounded one winddown faster so you can combo off it (like you can when it ends in the air)
- Make the aerial one always meteor
- Less landing lag on the aerial one

I'd much rather see the grounded one be used to get them offstage for edgeguards than as a combo move. You combo into it. Not the other way around. I'm actually not sure about making the downB always spike in the air. The non-spike version actually has some pretty good kb right now, that if you get hit with at a decently high percent, will kill you off the top. I've actually hated how sometimes I would get the spike version of the move when I was trying to hit someone coming from below me, when the upward launch would've killed them. It's worth a try to see how he plays with it (as right now the spike hit is pretty well useless), but I'm not sure.

How about giving Gannon some constant heavy armor? 1-2% of constant heavy armor would make him good at counterattacking vs. jabs.

You do remember when bowser's thick skin was just a flat 1% reduction, right? It made most multi-hit moves worthless against him, vastly distorting some matchups. Giving ganon 1-2% worth of heavy armour would yield a similar effect, where multi-hit moves just wouldn't be useful against him anymore. Not something that we want.

but got a slightly reduced KB

You mean like... increasing weight? lol

 

[trojanpooh]

I'm not really sure what I meant, but wouldn't increasing weight mean he would fly at a different angle? What I was imagining was he would follow the same trajectory, but not go as far. If I understand the MK nerf, I think I mean like that but as a buff.

 

[GHNeko]

We should make it so that there is a 10% chance that Ganon gets heavy armor when he's hit. So like if someone DA's Ganon, 1/10 times, he wont flinch, but if its a strong/smash attack, it'd break through anyway.

I mean really. Ganon has all this ****ing armor and he cant push through any of them with adrenaline?


Pffttt.

 

[The Cape]

1/10 means its not really abuseable, kind of dumb. Like, random factor takes the ability to abuse it out.

I like the idea of Ganon having heavy armor against weak attacks though. Help him to approach things like Falco lasers, jabs, and the like.

 

[trojanpooh]

Ooh, what if he had heavy armor for weak attacks and super armor for really weak attacks? 1-3% sounds good to me, but I never really dissected the game too much, so I don't know what a reasonable range would be.

 

[leafgreen386]

Heavy armour is based on percent, I thought. Like snake's upB. So it would be the same thing >_>

Again, armour needs to be assigned carefully, if it's given out at all. If ganon had heavy armour for up to 3% at all times, he would basically be impervious to all multi-hit moves in the game, as well as most weak projectiles and of course jabs. Fox's dair wouldn't even touch him.

And I think GHNeko was kidding, cape.

 

[The Cape]

What about Heavy Armor on Ganon's B moves?

Makes it a bit more challenging to stop Murder Choke, Dark Dive from Sheild, and Wizard's Foot and (lulz) Warlock Punch.

Give him something like 10% heavy armor on them?

 

[trojanpooh]

This may be a terrible idea, but I'm just throwing 'em out right now: Sparta Kick reflects.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Wait everyone here thinks ganon needs a buff? I feel like melee ganon when i play him, he certainly has a hard time against the more obvious top chars, but a single combo puts your opponent at kill % and his KO options are...everything is a KO option lol

EDIT: I would support super armor on his warlock punch, and falcon punch too for that matter, but thats it.

 

[iLink]

Wait everyone here thinks ganon needs a buff? I feel like melee ganon when i play him, he certainly has a hard time against the more obvious top chars, but a single combo puts your opponent at kill % and his KO options are...everything is a KO option lol

This. I was surprised how well I was doing with ganon in 4.0

I think he is fine how he is atm. If anything I would like, its super armor on the first few frames of his choke.

 

[Aznpooface]

I have to disagree with all the suggestions to speed up Ganon's gerudo. If there is to be a buff for it, it should be super armor frames throughout: speeding up the animation by 1.5x speed or more would make chainchoking far too easy. Reducing the wind-down lag on the attack would be reasonable as well.

Reducing the lag on Ganon's n-air so that it could be short hop auto-cancelled like his stomp would be great. It's a near instant 2 part attack that would be great for approach as well as defense if the lag was minimized. Nothing too rigged, just a small change that would greatly help his game.

The speed, power and lag of the Wizard kick is fine, in my opinion. It's a fast, powerful move that can cancel when it trails off the edge.. However, increasing the knockback or reducing the lag on the shockwave part of the move would be PRIME. Murder quake would actually be reliable, again adding to Ganon's game with dealing with pressure, being an instant ground attack that could be used for either short combo set-ups at low % or spacing at medium to high %.

TLDR:
-super armor for murder choke/gerudo
-reduce lag on murder chocke/gerudo
-reduce lag so N-air autocancels
-reduce lag or increase knockback on the shockwave part of Wizard Kick

Also, like someone said on the first page, make it so that Ganon doesn't move like a pregnant woman. Although his speed is tolerable and suited to his character, he needs to be able to stop and turn faster.

 

[Aznpooface]

Oh how did I forget, Down-Smash need to be FIXED. Maybe faster speed and less lag, or just fixing it's ability to hit twice consistently, like Toon-Link's Down-smash.

 

[Shell]

Making the Nair faster / autocancel bothers me in some ways because I feel like it would just make his play style more similar to Falcon. If anyone has creative ideas of how to further differentiate the Nair I'd be all for it.

(My other secret dream has always been to give G'dorf M2's old nair)

As for Armor, what about he doesn't flinch attacks 3% or below when his damage is below 50%? Probably still too good.

The reason that the Choke's swoop should probably be sped up is that we're not chasing get-up rolls anymore, we're chasing tech-rolls, which are considerably faster, I believe.

Aznpooface how did you go for 1.5 years without posting? XD

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't like the idea of making N-air a combo move for exactly what SHeLL said, he becomes closer to Falcon. Above all else, he needs to have those setups from the Flame Choke. I don't even bother with the move now a days and it DEFINES Ganondorf. If we can fix that and give his grounded and aerial down-b some strength he'd be good to go.

 

[:034:]

Wait everyone here thinks ganon needs a buff? I feel like melee ganon when i play him, he certainly has a hard time against the more obvious top chars, but a single combo puts your opponent at kill % and his KO options are...everything is a KO option lol

If he feels like a Melee character, that's actually a bad thing. Just think about it, in Melee, would you play Ganondorf against a good Sheik/Falco/Fox/Marth?

If you said no, my point exactly.
If you said yes, well done.

 

[Aznpooface]

True, that makes sense. I couldn't say anything about the armor vs. low % attacks... But to me, it seems a little gimmicky and distracting. I think making gerudo have super armor throughout would really make Ganon a **** machine, but within reasonable means. Opponents would be forced into specific options to only dodge or avoid.

Is it possible to completely replace an attack like that? M2's N-air would be ill with GDorf

This is my brother's account, I think he just lurks and reads guides

 

[Greenpoe]

What about Heavy Armor on Ganon's B moves?

Makes it a bit more challenging to stop Murder Choke, Dark Dive from Sheild, and Wizard's Foot and (lulz) Warlock Punch.

Give him something like 10% heavy armor on them?

1% heavy armor on Murder Choke?
10% heavy armor on DarkDive/Wizard's Foot?
20% heavy armor on Warlock Punch.

 

[Shadic]

Super armor for the choke would be awesome.

Or even Cape's suggestion of Heavy armor for his B moves.

 

[Shell]

Putting HA on the Choke means that he won't have to predict against get-up attacks, any sort of in-place option could be met with a choke.

Not saying this is good or bad, just thought I'd point that out.

 

[1048576]

Warlock punch should kill at zero.

 

[The Cape]

If he feels like a Melee character, that's actually a bad thing. Just think about it, in Melee, would you play Ganondorf against a good Sheik/Falco/Fox/Marth?

If you said no, my point exactly.
If you said yes, well done.

Um, hell yea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s

As for the nair, why dont we lower the KB of the first hit and make it hit up a bit more. So you can use the first hit and land and maybe get a grab. Then give the second hit a bit more KB so its also a good GTFO move?

 

[:034:]

Um, hell yea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s

Okay, I'll give you that one. But honestly, I can't pull it off consistently against them, I'm not that good yet.

 

[Shell]

I love playing as Melee Ganon against spacies -- Falco can kick you around for a whole stock, but if you can get him off the edge once he's dead.

Dutchman, what would you do to the nair (if anything)?

 

[:034:]

Dutchman, what would you do to the nair (if anything)?

Ehhh, I don't really use it much since Ganondorf can't follow up easily on it. If you could make it so that the last hit of nair sends your enemy straight up (kind of like a utilt/usmash would), it would make a nice combo move. And 40% ALR would also help of course. We shouldn't make it autocancel, Ganon and Falcon are different for a reason.