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Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

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RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
754
SK92 plays Falco/MK in normal Brawl. And Fow actually plays Ness/MK in normal Brawl as well. >_>

Fow, however, doesn't use MK in Brawl+. Just his really, **** good Ness. SK92, on the other hand, picked MK against LeoFTW's Bowser. Leo knocked SK92 into loser's early on, beating Falco with Bowser, but only after Bowser Up-Bing through a lot of Falco's easy Dair -> Jab -> third jab spin spam. SK92 seems to use it so much because Bowser, and most everyone, can't really get past his jab's priority easy at all.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
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Dec 23, 2007
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821
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Good to see so much bowser love latley. To see a bowser place third is pretty sweet aswell, But ****... where are the link and mario mains... besides cape(seems to play more ness and bowser) Neko (more marth then mario) and Boss (thank god for boss) I hardly see any mario players... Are his lack of kill moves, low range, and sub par recovery the reasons? Ive heard others just say hes boring... Which makes no sense seeing as how hes a pretty flexible jack of all trades.
 

Scufo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
162
Location
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After playing a bunch last night, I can't say I agree with all the changes made to Ness.

He was definitely too good before and needed nerfs (lolfair), but I don't think it was a good idea to nerf PK Fire, dthrow, PK Thunder, and fair all at once. It would have been better to nerf fair and one other move, and see where he stands from there.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
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JCaesar
Try to remember, Ness doesn't exist in a vacuum. He got nerfs, but so did all the top tiers. Top 5 in RC1 is a completely different level than the current top 5. Fox, Falcon, Squirtle, etc. all got significant nerfs. Every nerf was done for a reason too.

Just from playing with Cape all the time, I can assure you that Ness is still really friggin good.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
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Even in this set I would still place Ness in the top 10 personally. He is a very solid character, he is however not extremely silly anymore though.

As for the Falco jabs I would like to see the videos of SK92 and I will also look at them as I did nerf them as is now. Since you can DI out you just need to avoid them at their start a bit more is all.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
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JCaesar
I still think the problem with Falco's jab is their range (especially after playing him a bit last night). Shrink them a bit and they won't be nearly so silly, plus ftilt might have a use.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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Definetly something to consider. Its on the list to look at for the official.

Edit:
I just moved the IASA to end the move and the IASA to the next jab by 2 frames and then made the winddown on the final hitbox slightly more than before. Will look into range however as they are obviously still a bit crazy.
 

MyLifeIsAnRPG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
107
Long time player short time poster.

Anyway, I downloaded the beta today, and I have to say it feels profoundly different from RC1. The individual changes to ALR create some strange changes to play style. For example, in RC1 I used to do this ALR fair to utilt to fair sort of z shaped juggle thing but the new ALR on the f-air makes it harder to do and it makes marth's f-air feel way more linear and way less flexible than it once was. This may be a placebo effect, though... but it still feels that way.

Overall I have to say that this new nightly build makes the game feel even faster than it was before, and with the adjusted hitstun, this makes games tend to turn into a volley of dodges and dances which I like. It shows a lot of finesse and lends itself to big upsets. However, I also have to admit that the game feels a bit more unweildy now than it did in RC1. Before, when we had a universal change to ALR, it felt as if you could mix and match your moves to find a utility that fit your own playing style. Now, with the very specific changes to ALR, it feels as if moves have been tooled to work specifically how "most people" use them, and while this is a good thing, as it makes the game reinforce high level tournament play, I think it also discourages using moves in new, unforseen ways, which leads to further innovation and new strategies.

In short, I like the idea behind the beta. The teching and rolling stuff is good and a lot of characters feel as if they are pulled closer together in terms of balance. However, when i changed from Brawl to Brawl+ I felt like the "fun turned back on" with how smoothly the game flowed and how quickly the game played. Now, I feel the game still plays quickly, however it is no longer as smooth as it once was and this is a little discouraging. I would really like to have that flow back that RC1 had.

That was my mature portion of this post. My immature portion is OMG NERF TO GANNONDORFS FOWARD B WTF!

In all seriousness though, he probably needed that nerf. His forward B was supremely spammable in RC1 and it made him a monserous character.

Overall I liked RC1 a lot better but I will continue to play with this beta becuase I want to give feedback.

Oh, also, Jungle is awesome, but replacing temple? Temple is big and by far not netural, but at least it has no distractions or hazards and is liked by many. I think the juingle should be in, but I'd rather have it replace Bridge of Eldin, or Flat Zone, or New Pork City, I don't think any of us were dying to see Temple leave the stage select screen.
 

proteininja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
243
I have some question about strategy in a bowser vs falcon match.

I find that my roommate(falcon) tends to ledge stall alot. I can't hit him with fire because he keeps renewing his invincibility. If I try to approach to punish with a down smash or a bair off the ledge. He can shoot up and knee me. For this first question, I would like to know how do you punish falcon for ledge stalling with bowser?

The second question is: How do I punish falcon for his shielded aerials when a) I slide too far to retaliate with a shield grab, or b) the shield stun makes it so he can jab before i can up+b out of shield?

This is very frustrating as all of my approaches can be shield grabbed or punished and all of his I just have to eat until he makes a mistake. It is very frustrating to get an approach punished which leads into a high damage combo, and when I punish him sith an up+b i only get 15 percentish and no combo. I can never shield grab him. Bowser slides way too much, and by the time m shield stun ends I am out of bowser tiny grab range. My current tactics are to space ftilts and jabs until he gets hit, and then go into a tech chase string a couple of hits long. I can't space forward airs alot becuase he tends to punish that ESPECIALLY if i hit a shield with one. He can shield grab that every time, which becuase of my fatness even with di-ing down and away on his down throw he can still start a combo.

the approach that i can consistently punish is his neutral air, but if he can get me to shield a knee or a down air. i cannot do anything as his jab comes out ridiculously fast and i cannot shield grab or up+b it without it clanking against his jab. I have posted quiet a few times about this match up in the past, and I have definitely improved against him. So, please once again tell me some new strategies to oppose the retardedness that is falcon.

PS why does falcon get such an incredibly powerful kill move(knee) that he can combo into, and a variety of good approaches to start the combo with? what is his weakness?
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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Good stuffs
Just want to say that the ALR changes were limited to upping anything under 7 frames to 7 frames. This creates nothing that is so fast that it is completely safe on block no matter its placement.

Ganon sideB "nerf" was actually reverting the size of the grab box back to its original size as the size in RC1 was big enough to beat Rock Smash (really?) and we dont want that with a grab.

This is the ALR chart for Marth, first column is RC1, second column is current:
marth
Nair 5 7
Fair 5 7
Bair 11 11
Uair 5 7
Dair 16 16

So as you can see his fair has two more frames of landing lag, but thats to avoid such things as fair to grab on block which worked guaranteed in RC1. Anything below 7 frames generally was completely safe on block and required no real spacing.

Glad you played it, and I hope you continue to play it though :)
 

proteininja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
243
Long time player short time poster.
That was my mature portion of this post. My immature portion is OMG NERF TO GANNONDORFS FOWARD B WTF!

In all seriousness though, he probably needed that nerf. His forward B was supremely spammable in RC1 and it made him a monserous character.
I find a good way to counter his ridiculous tech chase game is to play more aerially against him. His aerials are laggy, and if you arent on the ground it is much harder to for him to side+b you. With his wicked jab, the truck, and the choke i believe he dominates the ground, which is fine. Get him in the air where his fat *** is helpless.
 

Lobos

Smash Master
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Toon Link:
- First hit F smash damage reduced
- Boomerang speed up changed to be an IASA with arrows only

What's IASA stand for? Can I get the beta thru the auto updater?
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
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Interrupt as soon as -- on the IASA frame you can cancel the move into something else, in this case only arrows.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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Lobos, the speed up was removed so that things like Boomerang to Fair would no longer be as possible, but it kept boomerang to arrow so TL can keep his range game.
 

Thunderhorse+

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
700
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peein' in all there buttz
Shaving off a tiny bit of range on Falco's jab is probably for the best, but in return.

Slash effect for uair plz <_<. Melee references ftw.

Seriously, can someone tell me why Falco's uair had a slash effect in Melee?
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
He'll get slash effect for uair after Captain Falcon gets "Yes!" on his knee.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Shaving off a tiny bit of range on Falco's jab is probably for the best, but in return.

Slash effect for uair plz <_<. Melee references ftw.

Seriously, can someone tell me why Falco's uair had a slash effect in Melee?
He's got, like, uh, talons. In his boots. That's enough of a reason.
 

IC3R

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
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Location
Fayetteville, GA
Shaving off a tiny bit of range on Falco's jab is probably for the best, but in return.

Slash effect for uair plz <_<. Melee references ftw.

Seriously, can someone tell me why Falco's uair had a slash effect in Melee?
His talons poked through his boots? :dizzy:

EDIT:: Oh ffff, ninja'd by SHeLL.
 

Rudra

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
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541
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Bahamas
Really? I thought it was because his tailfeathers were somehow involved with the Uair...
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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Ok, made a jab update for Falco and fixed Mario's B throw so it doesnt completely suck anymore.

Should be good to go from there :)
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
BTW can you make Jigglypuff's down smash like Melee's? God I loved that move :(

we really need a set where we just experiment that crap out of stuff. but good work
 

proteininja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
243
Can someone please respond to post #256. I don't think you know how annoying it is to main bowser, and only play a fantastic falcon all the time. No one plays B+ in tallahassee except for us. Please help me so I can start winning a few.
 

SymphonicSage12

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
3,299
Hm....

The best thing I would say is just bait and punish as best as you can.

Abuse bowser's quickest moves.


If he tries to dair you, I would recommend utilt, or up smash if you have the time.


Up b is still your friend, even though you say it doesn't work.

And abuse Falcon's lack of priority. BTW we are not removing the knee. Seriously, that'd be like trying to kill chuck norris. IT WONT WORK.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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Bowser up angled Forward tilt beats or trades all of Falcon's approaches. You should be able to heavy armor through most of his stuff, and if he tries to knee you while you are on the ground. Just up B, invulnerability > knee.
 

Seikishidan Soru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
260
If you'll notice I am not asking anyone to nerf falcon. I just want to understand my character better, and also want to know falcons weakness(that is what the ps is about)
He usually has some trouble dealing with disjointed hitboxes when approaching. Also, his recovery to some extent (decent in terms of covered distance, but it's kinda hard for a Falcon to mix things up in this situation).
 
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