Brawl 64 - Back to the Basics - Announcement about the title screen

[KMB23]

this sounds awesome. 64 smash has really fun physics.

 

[Rudra]

I just thought of something. In recreating Smash64, would Fox:

-Get stun on his lasers? (Maybe having them traveling slower?)

-Have a landing canceled Shine?

-Get Falco's Bair (to immitate his 64 counterpart)?

-Get Wolf's Utilt (same as above)?

 

[WheelOfFish]

Hopefully we'll be able to add some character specific ATs later, but balance will be second to physics. Not that balance isn't important, it's just impossible to create balance without set physics. Moveset animations likely will not change to be exactly like N64's version. Not sure what to do with Falcon's knee, because that probably needs changed to be more... 64ish.

Back to physics/mechanics questions, it'd really help if someone could answer this:

Can someone give me values (floating points if you're feeling extra generous lmao) for SSB64's hitstun and shield stun? And how extreme was stale move negation?

 

[kr3wman]

At maximum moved decreased to 75% damage and knockback, although I'm not sure how many times you have to do the same move the reach that point.

 

[IndigoFenix]

I don't think it's such a good idea to take away Side-B. While some people might prefer 64's physics, high-speed fights, and offensive-oriented style over Brawl or Melee, adding a new special move was an all-around good decision if you ask me. The lack of a signature move doesn't really add to the feel of Smash 64. Plus, many of the newcomers were designed with an extra special move in mind, and while in some cases taking one away probably wouldn't make much of a difference in their styles (DeDeDe for example) others would be completely different, and many would be seriously weakened no matter which special move you removed (Ike, Marth, and Olimar all come to mind - and what about poor PokeTrainer, Zelda, and Sheik, who are already stuck with just 3 real special moves?). So why mess around with a good thing? Stick to making a game that feels like Smash 64, but don't go overboard trying to re-create the game itself if that'll mean taking steps backward.

 

[tsunami70875]

I don't think it's such a good idea to take away Side-B. While some people might prefer 64's physics, high-speed fights, and offensive-oriented style over Brawl or Melee, adding a new special move was an all-around good decision if you ask me. The lack of a signature move doesn't really add to the feel of Smash 64. Plus, many of the newcomers were designed with an extra special move in mind, and while in some cases taking one away probably wouldn't make much of a difference in their styles (DeDeDe for example) others would be completely different, and many would be seriously weakened no matter which special move you removed (Ike, Marth, and Olimar all come to mind - and what about poor PokeTrainer, Zelda, and Sheik, who are already stuck with just 3 real special moves?). So why mess around with a good thing? Stick to making a game that feels like Smash 64, but don't go overboard trying to re-create the game itself if that'll mean taking steps backward.

then, however, the problem would we how far we exactly want to go with Smash 64. Do we just want the 64 characters? Do we just want the physics system? The problem is, if you decide to keep all the Brawl characters, and keep all the "good" additions (i'm not saying they're not good), then it would just be Brawl with really high hitstun, shieldstun, and taunt cancelling.
so, what i say is that the best route would be to throw out all the new physics and just leave the stuff that was in 64 (so no airdoges, no side Bs, Link-like recoverys), or it just doesn't feel 64-like

 

[WheelOfFish]

I already addressed PT and Zelda/Shiek (as well as most of the characters you mentioned), and I think the best idea is to make them individual so they can retain all their specials, though they will lose the switching option. Olimar is losing his whistle which isn't a HUGE part of his game. Ike is losing a recovery option, much like half the cast, but his up-b is going to gain horizontal mobility. Marth will lose shield breaker or dancing blade. Dunno which.

Of COURSE losing a special is a nerf to the characters you mentioned, but it's also a nerf to every single character in the game. The only characters with a recovery special in SSB64 were Mario, Luigi, and, if you count the bombs, Link. Considering that a lot of side-b's are recovery moves, yes, it would change the feel of the game. The goal of this project is to emulate SSB64 and character movesets are going to be carefully thought out.

Thank you Tsunami

It'd be awesome if someone was able to figure out how to remove air dodges. I think that removing specials will have to be done in PSA, but it shouldn't be too hard. I need to finish typing up character movesets for the original twelve.

 

[WheelOfFish]

A double post. And a predictable, boring one at that.

Planned specials for the original twelve. I think Mario should keep Fludd but we should make it a horizontal recovery move. Feel free to discuss.

Mario
Neutral-b:
Up-b: Super jump punch
Down-b: Fludd

Luigi
Neutral-b: Fireball
Up-b: Super jump punch
Down-b: Luigi cyclone

Captain Falcon
Neutral-b: Falcon punch
Up-b: Falcon dive
Down-b: Falcon kick

Donkey Kong
Neutral-b: Giant punch
Up-b: Spinning Kong
Down-b: Hand slap

Fox
Neutral-b: Blaster
Up-b: Fire fox

Spoiler

(though safari is superior...)

Down-b: Reflector

Jigglypuff
Neutral-b: Pound
Up-b: Sing
Down-b: Rest

Kirby
Neutral-b: Swallow
Up-b: Final cutter
Down-b: Stone

Link
Neutral-b: Boomerang
Up-b: Spin-attack
Down-b: Bomb

Ness
Neutral-b: PK fire
Up-b: PK Thunder
Down-b: PSI Magnet

Pikachu
Neutral-b: Thunder jolt
Up-b: Quick attack
Down-b: Thunder

Samus
Neutral-b: Charge shot
Up-b: Screw attack
Down-b: Bomb

Yoshi
Neutral-b: Egg lay
Up-b: Egg toss
Down-b: Yoshi bomb

 

[BG3]

Fludd needs to go. Can't we make Mario's down-b into Mario tornado with PSA? And to my knowledge, you could add some vertical momentum to it like the Machnado for it to be a viable recovery option.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I tried out the Mario tornado that has already been made, and it can be used multiple times. I don't know how to fix it, but if someone can find out and make a working version that doesn't look stupid, I'd be more apt to consider it.

 

[Shadic]

I think you should make Mario's DownB just be the cape, or something. Also Safari? Lawl.

 

[tsunami70875]

I already addressed PT and Zelda/Shiek (as well as most of the characters you mentioned), and I think the best idea is to make them individual so they can retain all their specials, though they will lose the switching option. Olimar is losing his whistle which isn't a HUGE part of his game. Ike is losing a recovery option, much like half the cast, but his up-b is going to gain horizontal mobility. Marth will lose shield breaker or dancing blade. Dunno which.

Of COURSE losing a special is a nerf to the characters you mentioned, but it's also a nerf to every single character in the game. The only characters with a recovery special in SSB64 were Mario, Luigi, and, if you count the bombs, Link. Considering that a lot of side-b's are recovery moves, yes, it would change the feel of the game. The goal of this project is to emulate SSB64 and character movesets are going to be carefully thought out.

Thank you Tsunami

It'd be awesome if someone was able to figure out how to remove air dodges. I think that removing specials will have to be done in PSA, but it shouldn't be too hard. I need to finish typing up character movesets for the original twelve.

no problem :D
removing the air-dodge could just be a simple "Change Action: E" on the airdoge subaction

 

[WheelOfFish]

I think you should make Mario's DownB just be the cape, or something. Also Safari? Lawl.

Maybe but that would be SO awkward.

no problem :D
removing the air-dodge could just be a simple "Change Action: E" on the airdoge subaction

Really? I need to go to sleep but if someone wants to try that and test it out while I sleep...

Volunteers?

 

[Shadic]

It wouldn't be THAT awkward.

 

[Nybb]

Here's a code for making the character select screen into 64's. This idea needs to start somewhere right?

Character Select Screen Mod [spunit262] 
0668310C 00000030
387E006C 3B600000
3C808068 38840DE0
7CBB20AE 7CA50775
41800014 94A30004
3B7B0001 2C1B0032
4180FFE8 48000038
04690338 48000068
066900d8 00000008
2c170028 41820168
02680DE0 0022FFFF
06680DE0 0000000D
28090001 02030A28
280B0506 07082329

 

[Marios_shadow]

Sounds like a great project, I will definitely be keeping an eye on this. =)

I tried out the Mario tornado that has already been made, and it can be used multiple times. I don't know how to fix it, but if someone can find out and make a working version that doesn't look stupid, I'd be more apt to consider it.

I'm not sure what you mean? I did a quick redirect of Mario's Down-B to the aerial Down-A (Not quite up on the terminology, of course), and removed the interrupt. It works fine, aside from Mario being unable to move until he finishes... >_>

I definitely think F.L.U.D.D. should go, it was one of my biggest annoyances in Brawl, but I'm just one newbie. =P

It wouldn't be THAT awkward.

I completely disagree, I think it would break some of the move's defensive use...

 

[Zeborg]

Nope.
Balance was screwed last time I remember.

Pika and Kirby was top tier.
And Link stood no chance against them.
Cuz he was the lowest tier.

As of 2009, Isai has said himself that even he is not wise enough to make a tier list for SSB64.

 

[Shadic]

I completely disagree, I think it would break some of the move's defensive use...

Because you push a different direction? Gimme a break.

 

[timothyung]

You should tweak the game mechanics first.

 

[WheelOfFish]

SSB64 CSS [spunit262]
0468310C 48000064
C2683170 00000008
387E006C 3B600000
3C808068 38840DE0
7CBB20AE 7CA50775
41800020 2C050029
40A10008 38A00029
94A30004 3B7B0001
2C1B002A 4180FFDC
7FC3F378 00000000
02680DE0 0022FFFF
06680DE0 0000000C
09000102 030A0B05
06070823 00000000

 

[Revan Skywalker]

I like the idea making PT independent. You rarely switch Pokes anyways, don´t you?
I think this would be the best idea

 

[V-K]

This would be awesome and I would play it but I think it won´t be in PAL right?

 

[n88]

I think PT's pokes should be independent, as you said (Although I would like to see the PT in the background with all of them).

Zelda/Sheik should be able to change, though.

But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. It's probably a good idea to sort out general game mechanics before individual character changes.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

These characters aren't even part of the original cast.
Focus my children!
Does anyone know what Hitstun should be set as anyway?

 

[Sails]

This looks nifty but I would want it as close to the original game as possible. This means moves and cast. I don't want no stinkin' cape

 

[Stevo]

I get the whole idea of making it like ssb64.... but why bother removing forward-b attacks?

by that logic, you should also be removing any characters that were not in ssb64. (perhaps that is what you are doing lol)


Nevermind, that IS what you guys are doing lol.

I would have been excited otherwise, but I will just play the actual ssb64 now

 

[NC-Echo]

Good luck, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun if done well.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

^I remember a match we played at Rawfuls. I got ***** though :]
Once this is done "I'm switching B+ for it. If it's good enough it might stay that way.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Personally, I think you should get rid of Mario's FLUDD. I think it's terrible and about useless anyway.

Also, about Pokeman Trainer's pokemon. If you didn't already think of it, I think their specials moves should go as followed:

Squirtle:
B - Watergun
Up-B -Waterfall
Down-B - Withdraw

Ivysaur:
B - Razor leaf
Up-B - Vine whip
Down-B - Bullet seed (I think Bullet seed would fit better on his Down-B then a Razor leaf)

Charizard:
B - Flamethrower
Up-B - Fly or whatever they call his Up-B
Down-B - Rock Smash

 

[WheelOfFish]

I get the whole idea of making it like ssb64.... but why bother removing forward-b attacks?

by that logic, you should also be removing any characters that were not in ssb64. (perhaps that is what you are doing lol)


Nevermind, that IS what you guys are doing lol.

I would have been excited otherwise, but I will just play the actual ssb64 now

Temporarily there will only be the original twelve. But the plan is to slowly add in other characters. Side-b's are being removed because they weren't in the original and often times boost a character's horizontal recovery... sure, Mario and Luigi could use down-b to boost their recovery in 64, but adding side-b's to the game makes Brawl 64 very much unlike SSB64. And not just in terms of recovery, but in terms of other options too.

If you think a character that wasn't in the original isn't feasible in Brawl 64, I'd be happy to think up a solution or explain my idea on how we could make them work. Because we will. Eventually.

RPGsFTW, that's almost exactly what I was thinking when we add them.

 

[Nybb]

I think a brief outline of changes should be compiled and added to the first post. And I agree with changing mechanics before characters -- i.e., let's try to find a reasonable hitstun value, and collect existing game mechanics codes that can just be added in (like no tripping).

 

[Xebenkeck]

Just a question about kirby, if you do change B moves, what will happen if kirby eats them. Say you change Ness' B to Pk fire again, will kirby still get PK flash when he wats Ness, or is there a way to get Pk fire for Kirby.


BTW kirby with pk fire was deadly in 64.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Kirby's copying ability isn't going to be able to be fixed unfortunately Unless somebody figures it out or makes a solution, Kirby's just going to get the characters' original neutral b.

Well, I have a beta... but I'm not sure if I should release it. Currently, it has no tripping, global Bowser friction (no sliding), high hitstun, waaay too much hitlag, 3/4 power stale moves, frame speed increase, and SSB64 CSS.

We need to get rid of air dodges, increase hitstun, reduce hitlag, give each character their ideal moveset, do a million other things with the physics/mechanics and unbreak a good majority of the original 12. But if you guys want to try it out I can let you have it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Remember that Ness's dair must be instant.

Also what are we going to do for nairs, most of them have been changed since 64 (they were all sex kicks back then)

 

[WheelOfFish]

We'll get on movesets and character individual stuff after physics.

Just so I don't lose these...

No sliding/High friction (based on Global Friction Modifier [Igglyboo])
04520100 3D6C56D5
C2857658 00000006
9421FF80 BC410008
3EC08052 C3360100
C023D134 3AC02EF0
7C00B000 40820008
EC21C82A B8410008
38210080 00000000

No air dodging/gliding/water lag
4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 00000008
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0021 40820008
3B800033 60000000
2C1C0084 40820008
3B80000E 60000000
2C1C00B5 40820008
3B8000B6 60000000
939E0038 00000000

 

[WheelOfFish]

I hate to double post, but I need help with some things.

If anybody has values for SSB64's hit-stun, shield-stun, hit-lag, and stale move negation, PLEASE say something! Any other values would be greatly appreciated too.

 

[timothyung]

You don't have to and shouldn't remove sideBs.
What would make it feel like 64 is not the characters, but the mechanics.

 

[Shadic]

Mechanics. Like, a lack of tethers, air-dodges, spot dodges, and SideBs.

 

[timothyung]

No. Side Bs are moves. Not mechanics.

 

[Zodac]

These characters aren't even part of the original cast.
Focus my children!
Does anyone know what Hitstun should be set as anyway?

lots.

You should try and get some of the 64 memebrs to help out with the advanced stuff, but i doubt any of them will.

I remember a thread on stale moves, it shold be around somewhere n the 64 board.