Brawl 64 - Back to the Basics - Announcement about the title screen

[Roy-G-Biv]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjJAlS8lLk

I never said balance was perfect. But even Link and Samus weren't HORRIBLE in N64 (ie: Kirby in Melee, or Captain Falcon in Brawl). They just weren't very good.

More importantly, this project is to emulate N64's physics, not it's character balance.

That's only because Isai is too good.

 

[kr3wman]

That's only because Isai is too good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiDU2boPVLU

It's not because his opponents aren't good you know.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Give Link the Boomerang and Toon Link Arrows.

 

[timothyung]

I forgot to mention, one of the traits of 64 is that the defensive options is very limited. To recreate this, you must:

Remove spot dodge
Remove air dodge
Remove DI (keep SDI)
Remove wall techs
Remove ceiling techs
Increase shield stun

And you should keep chargable smash attacks.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I dunno Timothy. I REALLY don't want this to seem like a cheap rip-off of Brawl+, and I think the best way to do that is keep it true to SSB64... MAYBE chargeable attacks will be kept, but I think that otherwise it should closely emulate N64 physics and mechanics wise.

 

[kr3wman]

That's what he suggested...

'>_>

 

[WheelOfFish]

I know, but I was sorta responding to his previous post after thinking about it for a while... I'm stupid, hahah.

Currently compiling some codes and then I'll do some testing... I hope this works.

 

[Spelt]

i don't think side b's should be completely taken out D:
imo that was the best improvement from 64 to melee.

 

[skstylez]

HELL YEA!! only thing is, ssb64's hitboxes were very simple, while brawls are very diverse. I'm sure it is all possible just will take time, i am all for this project!

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm pretty excited too :B

Can someone give me values (floating points if you're feeling extra generous lmao) for SSB64's hitstun and shield stun? And how extreme was stale move negation?

 

[Dai Tian]

Everyone's gonna need 100% ALR or something, to mimic the Z-cancels.

I'm curious to see how the B specials of everyone who came after 64 are gonna look like. Zamus without a paralyzer, Snake with no Nikita, Metaknight with no drill... or maybe the tornado. Hmm...

 

[greenblob]

No DI.

Implementation-wise, you should first try to get it perfectly right for the first 12 characters and then start slowly adding more.

Also, in terms of balance, yes, the game system was "broken" (if you're used to Melee or Brawl) but almost everyone had something broken about them, so it balanced out (for the most part). And that's what made it fun. If you want to make a crappy character good, just give it one thing extremely broken.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Implementation-wise, you should first try to get it perfectly right for the first 12 characters and then start slowly adding more.

I really like this idea. Would everybody be okay with it?

 

[JCentavo]

Would it be possible to use the SSB 64 sound effects and some of the old character voices (like Mario's for example)?
And supposedly, these characters were meant to be in the first one:
Bowser
Dedede
Meowth
Mewtwo
Peach
Pit
Zelda
but didn't make it due to the low budget.
It'd be awesome if we could recreate the old mechanics and have the characters that could've been in.

 

[ph00tbag]

I never said balance was perfect. But even Link and Samus weren't HORRIBLE in N64 (ie: Kirby in Melee, or Captain Falcon in Brawl). They just weren't very good.

Samus was pretty terrible.

 

[Firus]

Would it be possible to use the SSB 64 sound effects and some of the old character voices (like Mario's for example)?

You can't edit sound effects without very complicated ISO hacking, which also results in the replacement of a song with the former sound effect.

In other words, it isn't happening.

 

[bleyva]

You can't edit sound effects without very complicated ISO hacking, which also results in the replacement of a song with the former sound effect.

In other words, it isn't happening.

that really blows, as for some odd reason, the sound effects in smash have gotten progressively lame, especially the hitting sound effects.

lol, look at ganons jab. in melee it sounded like he was breaking your spine on contact, in brawl it sounds like he's punching a piece of paper

 

[n88]

Yeah, plus in Brawl, Zelda sounds...very happy when she gets KO'd. That's not a feeling I would attach to dying.

As someone suggested earlier, Link and TLink should get different Neutral-Bs. I would rather see Link w/the Bow and TLink w/the Boomerang, but I can understand if you decide to be more true to the original.

Can I request that you use Bowser's Side-B for his Neutral B rather than his current one? Ditto for Charizard. Flamethrower/Fire Breath suck. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this. Hope it goes well.

 

[Sph34r]

that really blows, as for some odd reason, the sound effects in smash have gotten progressively lame, especially the hitting sound effects.

lol, look at ganons jab. in melee it sounded like he was breaking your spine on contact, in brawl it sounds like he's punching a piece of paper

Agreed. 64 had very unrealistic yet somehow the best hitting sound effects.

Captain Falcon's upsmash was epic.

 

[Shadic]

Can I request that you use Bowser's Side-B for his Neutral B rather than his current one? Ditto for Charizard. Flamethrower/Fire Breath suck. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this. Hope it goes well.

More like, they'd be BROKEN with Smash64 hit/shieldstun.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Implementation-wise, you should first try to get it perfectly right for the first 12 characters and then start slowly adding more.

Any more discussion on this idea? I like it.

Can I request that you use Bowser's Side-B for his Neutral B rather than his current one? Ditto for Charizard. Flamethrower/Fire Breath suck. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this. Hope it goes well.

Firebreath/Flamethrower are pretty decent moves actually, but I like both of their side-b's... maybe we can consider making wild Pokemon and giving Charizard the rock... move thingy (sorry, don't know the name) as his down-b.

 

[Mattnumbers]

This is gonna be great!

I wonder what Lucas would have been like in 64 compared to Ness......

EDIT: The move is called Rock Smash WoF

Also, we need to make PKT2 wallride like crazy again.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Do you guys think Ness and Lucas should get PK fire or PK flash/freeze? Or should one get PK fire, and the other get PK flash/freeze?

I started maining Ness in SSB64 (waaaay back when it first came out) specifically because I loved the sound PKT made when it hit Ness and the crowd's reaction to it. And then seeing Ness hit Dreamland straight on but still slide up the wall and grab the ledge... [/nostalgia]

 

[n88]

@WoF

Yes, I think it's probably a good idea to do the O12 first. Then I would add Melee characters, then Brawl characters.

Tough choice w/Lucas and Ness's specials. I would go Lucas-PK Freeze, Ness-PK Fire

 

[Revan Skywalker]

This is a great idea, I would love to play some nostalgic Smash

I think the characters should be as original as possible, means Link gets the boomerang and TLink the Bow.
Same with Ness and Lucas - Ness gets Fire, Lucas freeze.

Can´t wait for the project

 

[Mattnumbers]

PK Freeze is easily Lucas's most useless, stupid move. So I would much rather he have PK Fire. Or we could always make his PK Fire into a new PK Freeze (just texture hack it to be blue and then make it have an ice effect instead of a fire effect).

I'm having a hard time imagining some characters 64 versions.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Yeah, some are weird, but it's doable. Like Olimar seems like he couldn't work in SSB64, but we could take away the whistle, make Pikmin Pluck his down-b, and have neutral-b be Pikmin throw.

Any other trouble characters? XD I'm sure there are plenty...

And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of perfecting the original 12, and slowly adding the rest of the cast. Though it has it's flaws, it would be easiest.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

@WheelOfFish: I don't think Olimar would work either, honestly. Wario mayybe...Since his bike is essential to his recovery you could replace that or the fart with Chomp. And regarding ICs, do you think they would have Melee edge-grabs or Brawl?

 

[Dai Tian]

I'm down with having the original 12 be put in first, followed by the Melee and Brawl guys. It helps organize the project and lets you handle the characters from easiest to hardest (64 guys were already in 64 so their moves aren't hard at all to figure out. The Brawl guys are gonna be overall tricky) It's made worse when you realize the moves have to be chosen to keep with the playstyle of 64 (B specials never moved characters over long distances like Wolf's or Ike's or Ganon's Side B's). Then again, if moving B specials were put in it would make those characters unique.

 

[codfish92]

if you could make the air that appears when characters hit the ground or wall green, that would be true nostalgia

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

I'm down with having the original 12 be put in first, followed by the Melee and Brawl guys. It helps organize the project and lets you handle the characters from easiest to hardest (64 guys were already in 64 so their moves aren't hard at all to figure out. The Brawl guys are gonna be overall tricky) It's made worse when you realize the moves have to be chosen to keep with the playstyle of 64 (B specials never moved characters over long distances like Wolf's or Ike's or Ganon's Side B's). Then again, if moving B specials were put in it would make those characters unique.

Yeah but what about Mario's down B? They'd have to switch that out too, even though I don't know how they'll manage replacing that. Lot's of problems.

 

[WheelOfFish]

@WheelOfFish: I don't think Olimar would work either, honestly. Wario mayybe...Since his bike is essential to his recovery you could replace that or the fart with Chomp. And regarding ICs, do you think they would have Melee edge-grabs or Brawl?

Olimar would work fine the way I mentioned. And about Wario, a LOT of characters are going to lose their side-b recovery option, but I'll be sure it's not crippling and that nobody has a 64 Link recovery. Fox faired well without his side-b in SSB64.

I'm down with having the original 12 be put in first, followed by the Melee and Brawl guys. It helps organize the project and lets you handle the characters from easiest to hardest (64 guys were already in 64 so their moves aren't hard at all to figure out. The Brawl guys are gonna be overall tricky) It's made worse when you realize the moves have to be chosen to keep with the playstyle of 64 (B specials never moved characters over long distances like Wolf's or Ike's or Ganon's Side B's). Then again, if moving B specials were put in it would make those characters unique.

Recovery side-b's weren't added until Melee and characters did okay without them. I don't think many characters will have more than one recovery special. Like I said above, I'll be sure that no character has a SSB64 Link-bad recovery. For example, Ike might get more horizontal mobility on his up-b.

I know that there is a PSA Mario that gives him Mario tornado. I MIGHT look into it but I'm not too sure how much I like the idea of giving a character a move they didn't have in Brawl... even if it's out of nostalgia. We'll see though.

What do people think about making PT pokemon independent? Brawl 64 would limit them to having only two specials, not counting the switch. We could remove the switch and give them their third special instead. Same applies to Zelda/Shiek.

Just an idea.

 

[Dai Tian]

Yeah but what about Mario's down B? They'd have to switch that out too, even though I don't know how they'll manage replacing that. Lot's of problems.

I've never used it but I'm pretty sure PSA can do something about that. And something is going to have to be done about Mario and Squirtle's water guns. Recovering already had its problems in 64 haha.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

Yeah recovering in 64 was a *****. And the gameplay was like, combo, then throw for the kill. But Ness will have to have Thunderstorming. That's what made him decent. And DJC will somehow need to be implemented again.

 

[Nybb]

Wow, there are a lot of people in here that don't know much about competitive 64 lol.

I would be very strongly in favour of cutting it down to the original twelve characters. This cuts the project down from ridiculously large to something that would actually be manageable for a few people using SA in their spare time. Trying to transition 40 characters to 64-style gameplay while keeping them balanced will just be too big of an undertaking, because this is likely going to be a just-for-fun side project.

After the game mechanics and the original twelve characters are done being changed, THEN it might be feasible to slowly add newer characters back in one at a time.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Wow, there are a lot of people in here that don't know much about competitive 64 lol.

I would be very strongly in favour of cutting it down to the original twelve characters. This cuts the project down from ridiculously large to something that would actually be manageable for a few people using SA in their spare time. Trying to transition 40 characters to 64-style gameplay while keeping them balanced will just be too big of an undertaking, because this is likely going to be a just-for-fun side project.

After the game mechanics and the original twelve characters are done being changed, THEN it might be feasible to slowly add newer characters back in one at a time.

My thoughts exactly

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I would strongly recommended having Pit and Dedede in, because they were both planned for 64 AND Melee.

 

[Shadic]

What do people think about making PT pokemon independent? Brawl 64 would limit them to having only two specials, not counting the switch. We could remove the switch and give them their third special instead. Same applies to Zelda/Shiek.

Very good.

As for Mario, I think we should actually keep his standard moves as is, but maybe swap his FLUDD for The Cape.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I would strongly recommended having Pit and Dedede in, because they were both planned for 64 AND Melee.

Well, the goal is to have ALL characters added at some point, but start with the original 12 and work from there.

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

Wow, there are a lot of people in here that don't know much about competitive 64 lol.

I would be very strongly in favour of cutting it down to the original twelve characters. This cuts the project down from ridiculously large to something that would actually be manageable for a few people using SA in their spare time. Trying to transition 40 characters to 64-style gameplay while keeping them balanced will just be too big of an undertaking, because this is likely going to be a just-for-fun side project.

After the game mechanics and the original twelve characters are done being changed, THEN it might be feasible to slowly add newer characters back in one at a time.

I guess so...That does seem more logical. But there is are a few changes that need to be made. For instance, would Falcon get his F-air changed? How do they plan on fixing Mario's F.l.U.D.D.? WHAT ABOUT SEPER DUPER LUIGI COMBOOOOOS?