Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Zigsta]

Since when has Bowser not had options when his back is to the opponent? We have Klaw, reverse Bowser Bomb, reverse Fire Breath, ftilt, uptilt, upsmash, Fortress...You definitely shouldn't worry if your back is to the opponent. Sometimes you'll even find that you can bait your opponent by turning your back to them. It's a really easy way to land uptilts.

That said, retreating fair is a solid mixup. Just be careful that you don't let your opponent slip underneath you.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Dont know if this would be a viable option just something i sorta just thought up and havent really tried. But considering we dont have that many options when our back is facing the enemy, I was thinking the way some of us bowsers like to use retreating fairs to cover some approach options. Well why not just backwards fair approach to mix up the enemy, if shielded maybe land behind them and grab? What do you guys think?

Hmm, Fair does hit directly below Bowser, but think of how little distance Bowser can cover in a single short hop. The opponent would have to be right next to you, within grabbing distance for your jump to allow Bowser to land behind. I wouldn't rely on such a slow, unwieldy manuever as a defensive option. And if you're opponent dodge rolls or appears directly behind you with some move, then your frame 8 side B can catch them without you having to manually turn Bowser around. And it will blow past a shield, unlike a standard F tilt or jab

Bowser has a long jump squat and remains a large target to be struck by jabs and Up tilts. In a pinch, I don't think I'd try this. It's true that Bowser can't do much when not facing the enemy. Up Tilt has a wide arc of a hitbox, but is slow to act out of. Bair hits hard and isn't terribly slow, but the jump squat makes it slow. Bowser's extended legs also become vulnerable as soon as the active hitbox ends. When the opponent appears behind me, I rely on side B if they're on the ground, and F tilt if they're airborne.

 

[Rend4125]

Since when has Bowser not had options when his back is to the opponent? We have Klaw, reverse Bowser Bomb, reverse Fire Breath, ftilt, uptilt, upsmash, Fortress...You definitely shouldn't worry if your back is to the opponent. Sometimes you'll even find that you can bait your opponent by turning your back to them. It's a really easy way to land uptilts.

That said, retreating fair is a solid mixup. Just be careful that you don't let your opponent slip underneath you.

I meant we dont have that many options when the enemy is a set distance away, not right next to us but yeah youre correct on that note.

but considering now that you would pretty much have to be next to the opponent for this to work... I probably shoulda labbed this a bit more before posting because i was originally thinking of using this as a closing the gap kinda thing. but i suppose that wouldnt work

 

[Cassius.]

People do that frequently in Smash. Tomahawk cross-up grab is a thing lol

FAir cross-ups in general are pretty infrequent though, youre better off just empty jumping if youre going to put in that much effort

 

[Rend4125]

Yeah I know what tomahawks are. Im saying for example your opponent is a megaman widths away from you. and your back is facing them. You then backwards fair approach and hit with the bottom of the 180 angle

 

[Cassius.]

Ohhhhhhh thats...interesting. I'll have to play around with that

 

[Jerodak]

@ Rend4125 It could certainly be a useful way to hit short characters standing behind you who aren't hit by Bair, and as a mix-up since jumping usually hops over grabs and a few other popular ground options. The part of the Fair you hit with will send the opponent backwards though, so it probably won't cross-up. Keep in mind that because you're hitting with the very last part of the attack, you're basically giving Fair more start-up, since the very last hit is the only part that connects at that angle. I'll definitely give this a try though, I've already found myself enjoying the back/below hit of Fair as a sort of reversal, and it can probably also function as a trajectory/D.I mix-up, maybe.

 

[Rend4125]

great tell me what you guys think, spring break starts for me soon so ill be labbing this option as well.

 

[MrEh]

When your back is facing people, that means you can pivot grab.

 

[Cassius.]

yeah, but we want to be exquisite, Chad

didn't you hear?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Can we stop for a moment and talk about how wonderful it is that side B from the air is lagless? A lot of combo strings in this game can account for an opponent's options from a tech. But with bowser, you can bypass teching entirely and just side B the moment before you hit the ground. Bowser will be in an upright position to shield, jab, bowser bomb, whatever you need based on what should be coming next from the opponent. I'm catching a lot of people with this fake out.

 

[EarthenPillar]

So I got 2 bad news:

#1: If a windbox pushes Bowser off the stage while in Grounded Fortress, Bowser cannot recover.
#2: Perfect Pivot Boosting does not affect a majority of Bowser's grounded moves.
(Except, Ftilt, which has a distance increase of Bowser's hitbox by 1/4)

 

[Jerodak]

#1: If a windbox pushes Bowser off the stage while in Grounded Fortress, Bowser cannot recover.

I think this actually depends on which way you're facing, if you're facing towards the center of the stage then you should be able to grab the ledge, I've had this happen for me once before. However, the chances of you being in this predicament are pretty slim, I can't think of any way for the opponent to make this happen too often escept maybe if you take a hit to your shield and try to Up B too early while the shield push is still happening.

#2: Perfect Pivot Boosting does not affect a majority of Bowser's grounded moves.
(Except, Ftilt, which has a distance increase of Bowser's hitbox by 1/4)

I actually think this is fine, Bowser doesn't need to perfect pivot when he could just be foxtrotting, it serves a lot of the same purposes but you also get more options. If you're using it purely for spacing you can just "Skid-cancel" it to return to neutral very quickly, and it's about the same level of execution as a perfect pivot. You don't get any sliding normals or anything, and it's probably not as fast, but you move a bit further by default, can vary the distance a bit, and, you can use a normal pivot during any point of the foxtrot for cool stuff like delayed pivot grabs/tilts/smashes. Also, using the skid cancel lets you quickly access your standing options, this allows you to do stuff like foxtrot to Bowser Bomb. I've been working this into my game lately. Admittedly, I haven't fully adopted the use of the "skid-cancel" yet, but I can certainly vouch for foxtrots and delayed pivot grabs, those work pretty well.

Edit: I forgot to mention the inputs for the "Skid-cancel". During a foxtrot simply flick or gently tilt the stick forward again and return it to neutral. Bowser should go right into his skid animation then return to standing. Just don't input the skid too late in the foxtrot animation or you get this weird drawn out version, and i'm pretty sure you might just be adding frames by then anyway. It can take some practice to get used to the timing and everything, but it's not that hard to perform at all, it'll most likely only take a few minutes to start getting the knack for it.

 

[Karsticles]

In case anyone didn't know: if you grab Villager right as he lays a Lloyd down, up or down throw will make the Lloyd explode on you without causing damage.

Why are Bowser's customs so awful? I want the fireball to be good so, so bad, but it needs the recovery and startup cut by half to be viable.

 

[Jerodak]

In case anyone didn't know: if you grab Villager right as he lays a Lloyd down, up or down throw will make the Lloyd explode on you without causing damage.

Just a heads up, this works with any throw, throws actually have I-frames at the beginning now, so as long as you're timing it properly you can just avoid the gyro using the I-frames from your throw. Unfortunately, while it does appear to count as a throw, this isn't the case for Side-B.

This also works against Pikachu's thunder, Toon Link's boomerang, and any other similar attacks as long as you're timing it right.

 

[Karsticles]

Just a heads up, this works with any throw, throws actually have I-frames at the beginning now, so as long as you're timing it properly you can just avoid the gyro using the I-frames from your throw. Unfortunately, while it does appear to count as a throw, this isn't the case for Side-B.

This also works against Pikachu's thunder, Toon Link's boomerang, and any other similar attacks as long as you're timing it right.

Good to know.

 

[Hitman JT]

So...this is probably one of those "no duuhhhh" things that some of you guys know already, but you can go under Smashville and Town & City with Dash Slash (and probably Dash Slam too.) Can go under Lylat if the tilting doesn't screw you over. Going under Battlefield is hard but can be done. If you didn't know this already, well....there ya go.

 

[Karsticles]

Another "no duh" thing to add.

Apparently, different characters have different ledge grab hitboxes. Example: go to For Glory Battlefield and select Ganondorf. Run him to the ledge and have him hang there. Once he loses invincibility, try hitting him with Fsmash, Dsmash, or Fortress. None of these hit him. Dtilt only hits at a very precise area.

Now swap Mario in, and repeat. Notice that all of these attacks hit Mario just fine, as such Usmash. I think we need to make a list of what works against who, because otherwise we risk ineffective ledge guarding for no reason.

Also, I am messing with customs, and I think that Fireball and Turbulent Bomb are worth exploring alongside Dash Slash, which I know is already loved. These moves each offer something against keep away characters. Fireball can reflect Gordos and helps force non-projectile characters to close in on you, and it can help pressure Robin. Turbulent Bomb could be helpful against characters like Link and Samus to go over their projectiles and get in.

Thoughts?

 

[MrEh]

Wind bomb is just really bad. You lose the frame trap of doom and your fastest punish kill option. Not worth it.

Fireball is already known to be good against Dedede and no one else. We've already established that fireball doesn't really force people to approach you, since Fireball is easy to dodge and does not threaten. You also lose out on your only midrange zoning tool. Default fire is already spectacular against characters with no projectiles to begin with, so using Fireball in these instances seems like a huge waste.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Another "no duh" thing to add.

Apparently, different characters have different ledge grab hitboxes.

Yes indeedy! I mentioned it just last page that Bowser's D tilt and Dair can strike the "elusive ledge hangers". The truth is every character really is different, so coming up with such a list will be tough when you have to account for spacing of moves. For instance, Bowser needs to be a step back on the average ledge hanger for an F smash to connect. And often, it's just the soft, later hit of the move. If you want to know which characters hang as low as Ganondorf, I know for certain that Palutena and Greninja are comparable.

I agree at studying the bombs a bit more, but I have to disagree on fire shot against Dedede. It's funny, I got knocked out of a local tournament tonight by a Dedede main. Fire ball may be invaluable against a For Glory Dedede who sits at the edge and spams gordos, but we shouldn't reasonably care about that. Most Gordos are aimed above or behind you in a real fight. He'll never randomly just launch gordos directly, that's just asking for a vicious rebound. He wants them to bounce as a wall of pain for him to smack or throw you into. You can launched back in his direction by the gordo in time to be struck by a Bair or Uair.

 

[Karsticles]

Wind bomb is just really bad. You lose the frame trap of doom and your fastest punish kill option. Not worth it.

Fireball is already known to be good against Dedede and no one else. We've already established that fireball doesn't really force people to approach you, since Fireball is easy to dodge and does not threaten. You also lose out on your only midrange zoning tool. Default fire is already spectacular against characters with no projectiles to begin with, so using Fireball in these instances seems like a huge waste.

Yes indeedy! I mentioned it just last page that Bowser's D tilt and Dair can strike the "elusive ledge hangers". The truth is every character really is different, so coming up with such a list will be tough when you have to account for spacing of moves. For instance, Bowser needs to be a step back on the average ledge hanger for an F smash to connect. And often, it's just the soft, later hit of the move. If you want to know which characters hang as low as Ganondorf, I know for certain that Palutena and Greninja are comparable.

I agree at studying the bombs a bit more, but I have to disagree on fire shot against Dedede. It's funny, I got knocked out of a local tournament tonight by a Dedede main. Fire ball may be invaluable against a For Glory Dedede who sits at the edge and spams gordos, but we shouldn't reasonably care about that. Most Gordos are aimed above or behind you in a real fight. He'll never randomly just launch gordos directly, that's just asking for a vicious rebound. He wants them to bounce as a wall of pain for him to smack or throw you into. You can launched back in his direction by the gordo in time to be struck by a Bair or Uair.

Yeah, after more testing Turbulent Bomb isn't as good as I thought. The big issue is that it has weaker shield damage, so it is easy to defend if you use it aggressively. As a gimping tool, it just has way too much startup to be useful. That is a shame. If it broke shields, I would consider using it over default.

I think Dash Slash is overrated, personally. It can be shield thrown even when done properly, and it never seems to pay off against projectile characters because the windup is so big. Plus, it is highly telegraphed when used improperly. I also think it is a great kill move in situations where Bowser Bomb is unreliable (spacing issues).

But Fireball? I am quite interested in it. My biggest issue with Bowser is that he has trouble just out of jab range against turtles. Nothing he has is safe, and Fire Breath has to recharge if you use it in the neutral. Plus, with customs on, Bowser gets seriously ****ed by some characters with customs that put stuff on the ground, like Villager. Fireball gives Bowser something to do from long range. It is also super hard to spot dodge - level 9 AI fails at it a lot. This also lets Bowser stay midscreen, which IMO is preferable to chasing people to the ledge, where Bowser can potentially be back thrown and gimped.

Basically, the move breaks standstills, and it also helps against other footsie characters by making them approach you. I only used it against Toon Link, WFT, and Robin so far, but I am appreciating it. It is especially nice for Robin, since you can fire it through Arcfire to keep her from charging tomes. You do a lot of damage trading, since the recovery is awful, but that is in Bowser's favor.

I would like to hear more people's experiences on this. If someone wants to provide video footage selling me on Dash Slash, I am willing to look at it as well.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

But Fireball? I am quite interested in it. My biggest issue with Bowser is that he has trouble just out of jab range against turtles. Nothing he has is safe, and Fire Breath has to recharge if you use it in the neutral. Plus, with customs on, Bowser gets seriously ****ed by some characters with customs that put stuff on the ground, like Villager. Fireball gives Bowser something to do from long range. It is also super hard to spot dodge - level 9 AI fails at it a lot. This also lets Bowser stay midscreen, which IMO is preferable to chasing people to the ledge, where Bowser can potentially be back thrown and gimped.

The fireball theory isn't bad. There is definitely an empty spot in Bowser's tool kit labeled "long range zoning/pressure". Your mention of spot dodges failing seems to neglect that an opponent can, and should, just shield the move, and they will be safe. But even if they sat there, powershielding each shot, the shots would come fast enough that they couldn't set up very many projectiles and obstacles without eating damage. My problem with Fire shot is that it won't cancel any incoming projectiles at all. Fire breath will stop projectiles that are not themselves intangible, and not items. That includes Link's arrows, Mario's Fireballs, Mega Man's pellets, etc. Fire shot cancels out none of these attacks. If you sat at long range and pelted Mario with Fire shot, and he did the same, mindlessly mashing neutral B and taking hits from your attack, he'd still deal even more damage over time. It's a low damage projectile with no followup potential and is easily shielded or evaded if there are platforms.

Bowser having a good projectile would be a godsend in many scenarios, but I'm not convinced Fire shot is the good projectile we're looking for.

Edit: I'm actually mistaken about the extent of Fire shots damage potential. What I remembered was a puny 2-3% damage, when it is actually 4-5. Nonetheless, Fire shot still has many limits to its potential effectiveness for long range engagement.

 

[Karsticles]

The fireball theory isn't bad. There is definitely an empty spot in Bowser's tool kit labeled "long range zoning/pressure". Your mention of spot dodges failing seems to neglect that an opponent can, and should, just shield the move, and they will be safe. But even if they sat there, powershielding each shot, the shots would come fast enough that they couldn't set up very many projectiles and obstacles without eating damage. My problem with Fire shot is that it won't cancel any incoming projectiles at all. Fire breath will stop projectiles that are not themselves intangible, and not items. That includes Link's arrows, Mario's Fireballs, Mega Man's pellets, etc. Fire shot cancels out none of these attacks. If you sat at long range and pelted Mario with Fire shot, and he did the same, mindlessly mashing neutral B and taking hits from your attack, he'd still deal even more damage over time. It's a low damage projectile with no followup potential and is easily shielded or evaded if there are platforms.

Bowser having a good projectile would be a godsend in many scenarios, but I'm not convinced Fire shot is the good projectile we're looking for.

Edit: I'm actually mistaken about the extent of Fire shots damage potential. What I remembered was a puny 2-3% damage, when it is actually 4-5. Nonetheless, Fire shot still has many limits to its potential effectiveness for long range engagement.

Fire Shot is also a great edge guard tool. It hits below the ledge.

I would not use the move often against Mario. Mario usually is in the air with his fireballs. He is too mobile. There are many characters where Fire Shot is not particularly useful in the neutral. However, there are characters that it is helpful for. Sure, it can be shielded, but you can say that for any projectile. This specifically helps deal with his dead zone, and ensures he doesn't have to get in on everyone. He can choose another route.

I will also say that if someone rolls through the fireball, Bowser recovers fast enough to jab.

I can hit people off screen just fine with it, but I used to be a Samus main. I am used to gauging projectiles for fall rates, and I have been pretty successful. It covers 3/4 recoveries, and jumping into the ledge is still hard against them due to getup delay.

I love and cherish Fire Breath, especially as a ledge guard tool, but Fire Shot earned my respect today against Toon Link, WFT, and Robin. I encourage everyone to give it a fair shot while also understanding the move does not make Bowser a contender for projectile wars. It just gives him a solid ranged option. Yes, most projectiles pass through it, but Olimar's Pikmin do not. In general, trading % with an opponent is a good thing for Bowser.

 

[Jerodak]

I agree with Karsticles.

Fireball isn't too bad against characters with charge specials, it automatically has a faster rate of fire and can interrupt them from charging without having to close in. Pacman will even drop his fruit and have to start over from the beginning. It's also quicker than the default, as long as you only commit to a single fireball, and it does have more range. Also, since most of the charge mechanics characters tend to have poor approach and movement options, you shouldn't be at too much risk for just throwing one out every now and them as a poke. In those situations, I could see fireball being a decent tool to keep them from running away or trying to hang back to force your approach with charge mechanics.

 

[MrEh]

Fire Shot is also a great edge guard tool. It hits below the ledge.

I maintain that this is bad because the reward you get for landing a fireball is 5%, but you forfeit any other pressure you could have done otherwise. If your opponent is recovering or on the ledge, you need to punish them hard. 5% some of the time is a poor tradeoff when you could actually take a stock.

Fireball isn't too bad against characters with charge specials, it automatically has a faster rate of fire and can interrupt them from charging without having to close in. Pacman will even drop his fruit and have to start over from the beginning. It's also quicker than the default, as long as you only commit to a single fireball, and it does have more range.

Pacman usually charges his projectiles in the air though; at a height that your fireball will normally never reach. If Pacman is just standing around charging his projectile, then I'd be really confused. You'd be better off running up to his face in that situation.

But Fireball? I am quite interested in it. My biggest issue with Bowser is that he has trouble just out of jab range against turtles. Nothing he has is safe, and Fire Breath has to recharge if you use it in the neutral.

If you ever have to worry about your Fire Breath recharging, then there's some strange Fire Breath usage going on here.

The recharge time isn't, and has never been a problem with the move, since it recharges extremely fast. You basically always just throw out fire for the least amount of time as possible to zone. Did it hit your opponent? Great, keep holding down the button and do extra damage. Did it miss your opponent? Let go of the button.

I think Dash Slash is overrated, personally. It can be shield thrown even when done properly, and it never seems to pay off against projectile characters because the windup is so big. Plus, it is highly telegraphed when used improperly. I also think it is a great kill move in situations where Bowser Bomb is unreliable (spacing issues).

I don't see how it's overrated when Bowser barely functions without it. The maneuverability boost you get from using it is huge. Even just using it to escape aerial pressure is amazing. It's something that regular Klaw, or even Dash Slam, fails to compete with.

Being shield-grabable is a moot point when all of Bowser's aerial approaches are shield grabbable. Due to the low angle in which you would normally perform slash, it's actually a lot safer then his normal aerials due to how fast you hit the ground after using it properly. The key difference is that slash can be used to approach at ranges where Bowser normally would not be able to. The reward for landing a slash at these ranges are guaranteed combos and pressure. It also beats with or trades with almost everything. Regular Klaw and Slam lose to basically everything.

Slash is also good for whiff punishing. Telegraphed or not, it doesn't matter when you're using it to whiff punish.

 

[Karsticles]

I maintain that this is bad because the reward you get for landing a fireball is 5%, but you forfeit any other pressure you could have done otherwise. If your opponent is recovering or on the ledge, you need to punish them hard. 5% some of the time is a poor tradeoff when you could actually take a stock.



Pacman usually charges his projectiles in the air though; at a height that your fireball will normally never reach. If Pacman is just standing around charging his projectile, then I'd be really confused. You'd be better off running up to his face in that situation.



If you ever have to worry about your Fire Breath recharging, then there's some strange Fire Breath usage going on here.

The recharge time isn't, and has never been a problem with the move, since it recharges extremely fast. You basically always just throw out fire for the least amount of time as possible to zone. Did it hit your opponent? Great, keep holding down the button and do extra damage. Did it miss your opponent? Let go of the button.



I don't see how it's overrated when Bowser barely functions without it. The maneuverability boost you get from using it is huge. Even just using it to escape aerial pressure is amazing. It's something that regular Klaw, or even Dash Slam, fails to compete with.
Being shield-grabable is a moot point when all of Bowser's aerial approaches are shield grabbable. Due to the low angle in which you would normally perform slash, it's actually a lot safer then his normal aerials due to how fast you hit the ground after using it properly. The key difference is that slash can be used to approach at ranges where Bowser normally would not be able to. The reward for landing a slash at these ranges are guaranteed combos and pressure. It also beats with or trades with almost everything. Regular Klaw and Slam lose to basically everything.

Slash is also good for whiff punishing. Telegraphed or not, it doesn't matter when you're using it to whiff punish.

You have never thrown an enemy off the ledge, Fire Breath as they recover, thrown them off again, and wished you had Fire Breath again? That is a familiar experience to me.

I don't think Slash's aerial mobility is all that great. Perhaps of it ledge grabbed, like Dorf's side B, it would be great. I agree it is great at whiff and roll punishing, bit Klaw kills and I think that kill is valuable against people shielding. The other virtues of Slash you mention seem miniscule, and in my experience Slash gets hit out by projectiles a lot of the time, invalidating it as an approach option.

My issue isn't whiff punishing, though, it is the lockdown situation where Bowser does not want to approach first, or where it is hard to approach at all. Fire Shot is great there. I agree that Fire Breath is an incredibly useful move. I use it a lot, as you can tell by my previous post. I do think that Fire Shot, in several matchups, is at least of comparable usefulness, which means it is worth including in the Eco custom list, and worth considering in general. I think we all agree the rest of his customs are bad, exempting Dash Slash, which isn't bad, but IMO slightly less useful than his default in my experience.

God this site sucks on mobile.

 

[Zigsta]

Why shoot a laggy projectile that does 5% when you can just run in someone's face?

 

[Karsticles]

Why shoot a laggy projectile that does 5% when you can just run in someone's face?

Because sometimes things are between you and someone's face, or approaching is risky.

 

[Zigsta]

Because sometimes things are between you and someone's face, or approaching is risky.

I dunno man, there's never been a moment where I find myself intentionally not trying to get in against zoning characters. Sometimes I'll run away to see how they react, but Bowser's a rushdown character by design.

Only character it's actually better to camp against at times is Shulk just to time out his artes--in which case Firebreath does wonders because it keeps the opponent stuck in the attack when used properly.

Sometimes I'll throw out Firebreath to force my opponent to give me space, go through their projectiles, or just see how they react to the move. When used properly, Firebreath also does way more damage than Fire Shot.

 

[Karsticles]

I dunno man, there's never been a moment where I find myself intentionally not trying to get in against zoning characters. Sometimes I'll run away to see how they react, but Bowser's a rushdown character by design.

Only character it's actually better to camp against at times is Shulk just to time out his artes--in which case Firebreath does wonders because it keeps the opponent stuck in the attack when used properly.

Sometimes I'll throw out Firebreath to force my opponent to give me space, go through their projectiles, or just see how they react to the move. When used properly, Firebreath also does way more damage than Fire Shot.

My thoughts go like this:
Bowser wants to be close.
However, Bowser isn't actually good at being offensive.
Bowser's entire non-jab moveset is punishable on shield.
Bowser wants to be close, but he really wants to force his opponent to do something unsafe,because his punishment and defenses are great.
Having a move that manages long range space, and forces people to come to you, is valuable.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Forcing people to come to me with fireballs has never actually worked out as well as I wanted it to. It's pretty much the end lag. I'm usually just stuck in neutral with an opponent at mid range, not able to use fireballs because I'll just get stomped for using it.

 

[S_B]

If Bowser actually had his fireballs from SMB that traveled forward slowly while allowing him to chase them, I'm pretty sure he'd be at least A-tier.

It would be similar to villagers rocket shenanigans...

 

[MrEh]

If Bowser had a fireball that moved 3x slower, I would use it in a heartbeat.

Forcing people to come to me with fireballs has never actually worked out as well as I wanted it to. It's pretty much the end lag. I'm usually just stuck in neutral with an opponent at mid range, not able to use fireballs because I'll just get stomped for using it.

Basically this. Fireball from huge distances away does not force people to approach you. A good player will not be pressured by them, and will just move around them.

At midrange, you cannot throw out fireballs because you put yourself at huge frame disadvantage for doing so.

 

[EarthenPillar]

http://smashboards.com/threads/bows...on-update-3-3-15.368511/page-17#post-18723875

Edit: I forgot to mention the inputs for the "Skid-cancel". During a foxtrot simply flick or gently tilt the stick forward again and return it to neutral. Bowser should go right into his skid animation then return to standing. Just don't input the skid too late in the foxtrot animation or you get this weird drawn out version, and i'm pretty sure you might just be adding frames by then anyway. It can take some practice to get used to the timing and everything, but it's not that hard to perform at all, it'll most likely only take a few minutes to start getting the knack for it.

My worry about the windbox is that it may pose a threat to Bowser MU vs Pacman, Palutena, Greyninja, G&W later in the meta. However I agree, It's not a worry as of now with the attention we are getting.

A HUGE THANKS to the introduction of the Skid-cancel. I was never a fan of Foxtrotting with Bowser before due to the lack of shielding options. THIS will do great!

All this custom talk... too bad they aren't a thing in my meta.

 

[Jerodak]

A HUGE THANKS to the introduction of the Skid-cancel. I was never a fan of Foxtrotting with Bowser before due to the lack of shielding options. THIS will do great!

Happy to help, let me know how that works out for you.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Whoa, did you guys know that Whirling Fortress no longer has Frame 1-5 invulnerability in this game? I was totally kept in the dark about this. With a frame 6 hitbox, it's still a good OoS move - faster than any other move Bowser can perform on the ground, especially with the fact that it's an up special. However, I'm still quite depressed to have found about Bowser no longer having one of, if not THE greatest OoS moves in Smash.

 

[Cassius.]

that was one of the reasons why i was tempted to quit bowser during the first 2 months of the game. it was extremely agitating having to actually wait my turn to punish moves. i was too used to just having the "you hit my shield, idiot" option(s) in brawl. both upb, side b and grabbing (to an extent) got nerfed, so bowser has to punish in ways that are a bit weird than what i was used to.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

that was one of the reasons why i was tempted to quit bowser during the first 2 months of the game. it was extremely agitating having to actually wait my turn to punish moves. i was too used to just having the "you hit my shield, idiot" option(s) in brawl. both upb, side b and grabbing (to an extent) got nerfed, so bowser has to punish in ways that are a bit weird than what i was used to.

But - but he's always had his frame 1 invulnerability since Melee. I just...I feel like I just heard the news of Pearl Harbor a day later than everybody else. Heck, I've been using Fortress in this game as if it still had those frames. I need a moment. Or five. That's how many frames of vulnerability I feel in my heart right now.

damn...

 

[Hitman JT]

So...this is probably one of those "no duuhhhh" things that some of you guys know already, but you can go under Smashville and Town & City with Dash Slash (and probably Dash Slam too.) Can go under Lylat if the tilting doesn't screw you over. Going under Battlefield is hard but can be done. If you didn't know this already, well....there ya go.

Well...don't even need Dash Slash/Slam to go under Smashville.

...please tell me I'm not late >_>

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well...don't even need Dash Slash/Slam to go under Smashville.

...please tell me I'm not late >_>

Indeed. Bowser's amazin-err, whirling Fortress can take him to the other end of Smashville with ease. You know what Fortress doesn't get the job done? Flying Fortress, our designated recovery focused Up B that fails to recover from most offstage positions.

Side note regarding Dash slam and Dash Slash. When we're talking about not landing with the attacks, Dash Slam has an extremely shorter IASA frame compared to Slash. Making it far superior as a recovery move since you lose less height for the same distance from the air. Dash slam's attack also seems to combo into Fair at low percent if you land on a platform or near the ledge where you both can fall off. They can probably air dodge, but if they attempted an attack or jump, I doubt they'd get past Fairs excellent hitbox. Dash Slash of course moves Bowser much further when performed from the ground. And the gap between Slash's hitbox ending and Bowser being able to act out of it is pretty small too. I'd like to use Slash from the ground to cover landings, since Bowser has no tools to really do that unless they're landing within jab distance.