Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[S_B]

Allow me to join the chorus that is singing the praises of dash slash...

It makes me so utterly badly wish that FG allowed custom moves (or that this was Bowser's default move) because I'd love to give this some field testing.

Basically, in order to fully appreciate just how awesome this move is, imagine Bowser's standard klaw and how it allows you to land laglessly. Now imagine that you can use that same thing to lunge Bowser forward WHILE putting out a decent hitbox, land Bowser where ever the hell you want near an enemy and immediately follow it up with a move.

If you advance on an enemy and they shield and you land BEHIND them, you have TONS of options: immediate pivot grab, pivot smash, pivot f-tilt, pivot d-tilt and my personal favorite, instantaneous pivot bomb. Or, you can always mix things up by dash slashing FURTHER away from them as they no doubt try to punish you were you were standing a MOMENT ago, then you might even be able to dash slash BACK in time to hit them.

Then, there's the fact that it aids in horizontal recovery by allowing Bowser to recover high without fortressing over the stage and getting punished to hell and back.

The rest of Bowser's customs range from "total ass" to "mostly ass", but this one almost makes up for all of them.

My only question is why the hell hasn't Bowser torn the faces off of more people in tournaments where customs are legal already?!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My only question is why the hell hasn't Bowser torn the faces off of more people in tournaments where customs are legal already?!

This may be difficult to answer. Has anybody on these boards yet entered a custom tournament with Bowser? I only have one local venue that just opened up, and they hold weekly custom and no custom tournaments. Unfortunately, the day that the custom tournament is held is a day that I would be in class at that evening. Even if I did enter, I'd still need to put in some serious practice with the custom side Bs, in addition to some real matches to make sure I'm using most of its potential. You'd be surprised how many entrants at these tournaments don't use customs at all. Instead relying on default sets since that's what they know already.

It's not a straight up upgrade to flying slam, it's a significant gameplay change to Bowser's capabilities. A lagless bouncing Fish in terms of air mobility. Heck, even the grounded version shouldn't be ignored. Bowser closes an absurd amount of distance with that attack. Just remember that no hitbox actually appears until frame 17. Making for a slow option to challenge dash grabs and other approaches.

I also think Dash Slam has great potential. And would definitely be my personal pick if not for broken Bowsercide in Smash 4. When an opponent is grabbed, the effective range Bowser moves with them is increased. This makes for easier intentional suicides, in addition to easier unintended ones initiated by the opponent. Making it a riskier pick. However, Command Grabs in general are huge in this game's shield-reliant meta. And the most scary command grabs in custom-less Smash 4 are Diddy's Monkey Flip and Ganon's flame choke, because they are so mobile. I'd argue Dash Slam could be even scarier.

 

[S_B]

I also think Dash Slam has great potential. And would definitely be my personal pick if not for broken Bowsercide in Smash 4. When an opponent is grabbed, the effective range Bowser moves with them is increased. This makes for easier intentional suicides, in addition to easier unintended ones initiated by the opponent. Making it a riskier pick. However, Command Grabs in general are huge in this game's shield-reliant meta. And the most scary command grabs in custom-less Smash 4 are Diddy's Monkey Flip and Ganon's flame choke, because they are so mobile. I'd argue Dash Slam could be even scarier.

Dash Slam is the only other special move that isn't crap, IMO.

I just love the distance Bowser can close in a split second with dash klaw and the duration for which he remains at the same horizontal height is also nice.

I feel like it's Bowser's version of monkey flip, only the real terror comes from what Bowser is going to do upon landing because he has EVERYTHING at his disposal...

 

[Cassius.]

it's because although bowser has a move as cool as dash slash, it doesn't change the fact that he still blows for multiple reasons that the top characters in the game can exploit almost effortlessly lol

that's pretty much the answer. you still have to consider the problems that bowser still has--one custom move isn't going to fix all of them.

 

[Uncle]

it's because although bowser has a move as cool as dash slash, it doesn't change the fact that he still blows for multiple reasons that the top characters in the game can exploit almost effortlessly lol

that's pretty much the answer. you still have to consider the problems that bowser still has--one custom move isn't going to fix all of them.

It's this, pretty much. Bowser really appreciates the dash options, but they don't completely erase his weaknesses, especially against characters like Sheik. People also have to keep in mind that other characters are boosting from the inclusion of custom moves, as well. It'll be really cool to see where everybody stands at the end of the year, because the customs meta (hell, the Smash 4 meta in general) is still young and players are still exploring it.

 

[S_B]

It's this, pretty much. Bowser really appreciates the dash options, but they don't completely erase his weaknesses, especially against characters like Sheik. People also have to keep in mind that other characters are boosting from the inclusion of custom moves, as well. It'll be really cool to see where everybody stands at the end of the year, because the customs meta (hell, the Smash 4 meta in general) is still young and players are still exploring it.

Yeah, though having looked through most of the custom movesets, I feel like most of them aren't anywhere near as useful as DS is to Bowser.

But that's very likely because Bowser needed something to give him a boost the most out of anyone, and given that the current klaw is crap for so many reasons (mostly because it can be used AGAINST Bowser), it's very easy to give it up.

I understand that Bowser still has more weaknesses that aren't overcome by it, but it's at least an interesting tool that people may grow with whereas before Bowser didn't really have anything that was even going to give him a chance.

 

[MrEh]

This may be difficult to answer. Has anybody on these boards yet entered a custom tournament with Bowser?

I've been doing that ever since the game came out.

I've placed top 8 in nearly every event in my region, with 30-50 entrants a pop.

I speak highly of Dash Slash because I've used it in actual events and know how good it is.

My only question is why the hell hasn't Bowser torn the faces off of more people in tournaments where customs are legal already?!

Because Bowser without customs is trash, and Bowser with customs is average at best?

 

[S_B]

Because Bowser without customs is trash, and Bowser with customs is average at best?

The sad, sad truth...

 

[Zigsta]

I don't think he's trash at all, but you really need to be very on point with your MUs since Bowser's not good enough to go autopilot. You really need to develop different play styles for different characters. It's going to take a while for more Bowsers to place notably. Definitely not the uphill battle it was in Brawl.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah, I mean I'm just being overly realistic because people tend to write off Dash Slash as a godsend move that will move Bowser players from placing 49th to winners semifinals or some ****.

If you're not solid, no Bowser custom move is going to compensate for your bad play. If you don't understand player psyche, really grind out MUs or are not being real with yourself, playing Bowser is not going to work. You have to understand what he can do, and what you really will be pushing boundaries with as far as his character type goes.

Bowser is clearly a pretty okay character in this game. Like I've been saying for months since I first touched the Smash 3DS, he's as mid tier as mid tier gets. The literal 25th character out of a cast of ~50.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, I mean I'm just being overly realistic because people tend to write off Dash Slash as a godsend move that will move Bowser players from placing 49th to winners semifinals or some ****.

/quote]

To be fair, this is the same gushing reaction everybody has had when somebody finds just one application for a custom move. Particularly in all those one minute videos on youtube where somebody gets killed in a friendly match onstream by a custom move they didn't anticipate because it was new to them. The hype is far from the reality.

We can talk all day about how the Dash moves are groundbreaking to Bowser's kit, how it opens up new possibilities for matchups. However, they don't directly remove Bowser's greatest weaknesses. Those are that Bowser's fastest moves are jab, whirling fortress, and Nair all sitting at frame 7,6, and 8 respectively. Such slow moves means he can't match the speed of characters with frame 1 or 2 jabs, frame 3 Nairs, etc. And he can't combo break with anything besides shield. In addition, no custom move will change the fact that Bowser is huge, and highly susceptible to projectile walls.

But let's think on what weaknesses that Dash moves cover. Bowser has trouble landing, but I feel the moves help him out here. He's still a wicked large target, but at least he can be mobile without relying on his garbage tech rolls. And you still have the option of dashing toward or away from your opponent to boot. Flying slam is already lagless, allowing you to pull up shield or jab an opponent expecting a tech, but if their choice in catching your landing was a simple dash attack or dash grab from the beginning, you'll probably take the hit just the same. The moves also bolster his recovery. Fortress is pretty great in Smash 4. To the point where distance and height are rarely an issue, but the move is slow and doesn't offer much protection from typical spike Dairs. Choosing to recover above the ledge is your only, risky mixup with Fortress. With Dash moves, you can at least recover high when launched at a high angle. Allowing you to Bomb precisely down to the ledge, or challenge incoming Uairs with Bowser's excellent Dair. When he's not being juggled, Bowser has fierce aerials.

Bowser will always be highly exploited by the typical stuff, but I think proper practice and use of Dash moves will help us fight on our terms as much as possible.

 

[S_B]

Yeah, I mean I'm just being overly realistic because people tend to write off Dash Slash as a godsend move that will move Bowser players from placing 49th to winners semifinals or some ****.

It may (and likely will) mean absolutely nothing for Bowser, but it does one very key thing for him that is wildly different than any of his prior situations: it makes him slippery.

I mean, sure, Bowser has better mobility this time around, but he's still stupidly predictable. His options for returning to the stage are currently "float back with an extremely interceptable attack that begs to be spiked". With DS, he can choose to recover high without setting himself up for being smashed.

In addition, baiting out an attack from an enemy will stand a REAL chance of allowing Bowser to move in to punish because of how much ground he can cover so quickly. Even with his runspeed, it was very often not possible to get in in time to punish something.

He can also move quickly out of the way of attacks: when knocked in the air, his previous options included "drifting left or right and air dodging" to try to make it back to the stage. DS allows him to quickly get out from above an opponent and hopefully live longer as a result.

Again, it's not going to boost him into winning Apex or anything, but I can actually call it the most interesting thing Bowser has in this game and not be exaggerating even one bit (also fun to use).

 

[Puppyfaic]

Um
So, I didn't really know where to put this, as I didn't think it deserved its own thread, and I'm also not sure if this has been discovered and pointed out already, but Bowser has a Super Crawl. Using his ... third? Side B, I think. The one that's an attack instead of a command grab. If you use it as you're approaching the ground and then immediately crawl backwards(or forwards!), he'll Super Crawl, just like Diddy Kong.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Cassius.]

Um
So, I didn't really know where to put this, as I didn't think it deserved its own thread, and I'm also not sure if this has been discovered and pointed out already, but Bowser has a Super Crawl. Using his ... third? Side B, I think. The one that's an attack instead of a command grab. If you use it as you're approaching the ground and then immediately crawl backwards(or forwards!), he'll Super Crawl, just like Diddy Kong.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

This was discovered in November. It's known as Waveslashing for Bowser.

 

[Jerodak]

I just realized that I didn't have any information about it in the O.P so I went ahead and did a quick little update. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Corgian]

...So, I need some help. This is really embarassing to admit, but for some reason I'm having trouble doing... pivot grabs with Bowser. When I played Fox, I didn't have any trouble with them, but for some reason every time I try doing it with Bowser it comes out as a Forward-tilt. What causes this? What can I do different to get that meaty grab range?

 

[Cassius.]

I'm not entirely sure. Are you inputting the turn and grab command at the same time? I think if you're running and you tilt the joystick and press Z, that will give you a Forward Tilt. It's not embarassing at all, it's happened to me a few times, although I've had more of an issue with Bowser doing an instant pivot standard grab instead of a pivot grab because I do everything a bit fast (I have really fast hands).

 

[Corgian]

That might be it. Should I be be aiming for Pivot-to-Grab, rather than Pivot + Grab? I've tried changing my timing, and it doesn't seem to change the result.

 

[Jerodak]

You can actually input grab right before doing the turn-around, you can try that out and see if it works for you.

 

[GanonDuck]

With 1.0.6 being confirmed to be a Balance patch, im so god damn scared that they will nerf Bowsers pivot grab.

Im really hoping they fix side B by at least making it consistent on all stages incase of a bowsercide.

 

[Cassius.]

Nah. With all of the legitimately dumb **** in this game, including how horrible Bowser's side B actually is through and through, I severely doubt they will do anything to that move.

 

[Jerodak]

In my opinion, Bowser really only needs a few tweaks here and there and he'll be fine, there's always the possibility that he might get them, but all we can do is wait and see. I just hope they include patch notes this time, that'd make a lot of things much easier.

 

[S_B]

I'm more hopeful about them nerfing the characters that completely invalidate Bowser's existence (ie Shiek) than buffing Bowser.

But it'd be great if they'd at least fix Bowsercide to be consistent. Someone pointed out that dash slam gives a ton of control to the opponent with the idea that Bowser would NEVER be able to Bowsercide with them, meaning that it's highly likely that they INTENDED Bowsercide to give the win to Bowser, since that move is basically suicide if Bowser dies first.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

With Side B, do we have any concrete testing on whether percentage difference is ever truly glitched in favor of the victim or even Bowser? I hope we didn't totally fabricate this based on some player testimony. And with an incoming patch, it'll be something that requires testing once again, since it's a good bet Flying Slam will be changed/fixed in some regard.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm pretty sure no one is fabricating anything, but if you want to test it out then go ahead, it couldn't hurt.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm pretty sure no one is fabricating anything, but if you want to test it out then go ahead, it couldn't hurt.

Heh, part of why I asked was to get the "go ahead" on testing for it.

 

[Zigsta]

Are you saying that we were lying about the outcomes of Koopacides? How the hell does that make any sense?

You're welcome to test if it pleases you, but the results were found to be conclusive a long time ago. It's entirely stage dependent. Nothing else matters.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Are you saying that we were lying about the outcomes of Koopacides? How the hell does that make any sense?

You're welcome to test if it pleases you, but the results were found to be conclusive a long time ago. It's entirely stage dependent. Nothing else matters.

You misunderstand. I asked about whether the victim can control the direction of Flying Slam more than Bowser can while having more damage. Not Bowsercide outcomes. I've already devoted a thread to that, anyway. You've posted in it.

 

[Jerodak]

Heh, part of why I asked was to get the "go ahead" on testing for it.

That wasn't necessary, if you're curious about something and want to test it then just test it, it's not like you have to file an official request or anything. Now if you need help with testing then that's another story, generally I'm available to help with tests if there's no one else to help you with it and you need a spotter, in that case just let me know via forum post or PM.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That wasn't necessary, if you're curious about something and want to test it then just test it, it's not like you have to file an official request or anything.

Oh no no, I didn't want to suggest these boards to be some bureaucracy. We're a kingdom. My fishing was more of a means of asking "has anybody tested this yet?". I can think of nothing more embarassing than making a beautifully constructed thread, only to have a user stop me and say, oh we already figured this out in this thread here. Regarding the amount of control Bowser and the victim have during the flying aspect of Flying/Dash Slam. I'm a ways in to my investigation, and I do think it's information that Bowser mains should be aware ofwhen deciding the viability of these side specials over Dash Slash, a move with no variance. I will try to make it available soon. What I can tell you is that I've cooked up some tangible formulas for the move's...interesting programming, and have found no truly random moments of one character having more control when they shouldn't.

To change the subject. I'm currently enthralled with applications of performing Special moves during a run with characters. I should mention that every character can perform a side special during the initial dash frames. And with the aid of jump cancelling, you can perform an up B during those frames as well. But with a run, you gain your neutral and down specials without having to skid cancel.
I'm curious if Bowser Bomb out of a run is a strong option. The rising hit of Bomb will come out at about the same time that a skid cancelled jab would. Maybe we could use this to punish empty hops and landings at a medium range? I wouldn't want to throw out such a punishable attack while the opponent is grounded in neutral. The common, reactionary dodge roll that we still see at high level play will subvert Bomb's slow rising hitbox and allow for a punish. But on an aerial opponent, If they do land and put up shield, the Bomb is well known for its shield breaking power. What do you guys think?

 

[Jerodak]

Oh no no, I didn't want to suggest these boards to be some bureaucracy. We're a kingdom. My fishing was more of a means of asking "has anybody tested this yet?". I can think of nothing more embarassing than making a beautifully constructed thread, only to have a user stop me and say, oh we already figured this out in this thread here. Regarding the amount of control Bowser and the victim have during the flying aspect of Flying/Dash Slam. I'm a ways in to my investigation, and I do think it's information that Bowser mains should be aware ofwhen deciding the viability of these side specials over Dash Slash, a move with no variance. I will try to make it available soon. What I can tell you is that I've cooked up some tangible formulas for the move's...interesting programming, and have found no truly random moments of one character having more control when they shouldn't.

Oh alright, Yeah I thought it was strange that someone might feel like asking permission, and actually this thread was made as a way to prevent what you described from happening, among a few other reasons. So I'm glad we're in agreement, I'll try to keep all the known information compiled in the O.P so that anything of major importance can be ready and available so people will know what they should and should not make new posts about. However before you do any testing I recommend waiting till after the balance patch since any results you find at this point could potentially change. However, if you want to test now then that's fine too if you're willing to do a retest later on after the patch to check for changes.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

However before you do any testing I recommend waiting till after the balance patch since any results you find at this point could potentially change. However, if you want to test now then that's fine too if you're willing to do a retest later on after the patch to check for changes.

This philosophy is sound, but presents a conflict of interest depending on who you ask. If you ask me, I think Bowser should have as much complete data and testing as possible regarding anything that is likely to change, namely Bowsercide. It would be a shame if the patch came around, we thought we saw a change, but had not enough data to cross reference. Since I assume there will be no officially released patch notes by Nintendo, it will be up to the community once again to provide proofs for all the changes we find. That will be impossible if data does not exist in the first place. Even if we see a change, it will just be conjecture as far as everybody else is concerned.

 

[Big Sean]

I just discovered something pretty cool! It's actually pretty easy to travel underneath smashville. It's pretty easy even without dash slash, but dash slash can help make this work from even further distances from the stage. You do need your second jump, but if you're already low and are afraid of a spike or something, this might be super useful!

Edit:
Looked at some more stages.
Delfino - doable but it looks pretty scary. For some reason using dash slash makes it a lot harder, maybe impossible. After using dash slash, up + b refuses to snap.
Halberd - as far as i can tell, dash slash is necessary to make this one work. Pretty easy though.

lylat + town and city, FD, and battlefield are impossible from what I can tell.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ Big Sean One thing regarding Dash Slash and Slam when talking about recovery, is that Dash Slam ends earlier than Dash Slash, primarily due to the fewer active frames. While both moves seem to make Bowser travel the same distance from the air, Dash Slam lets him act out of it faster, making it somewhat better for recovery or for going under stages.

I've been playing with Bowser's Fire Breath recently. One change to Smash 4's iteration is the addition of damaging windboxes at the end of the stream. And I noticed that when the flames do not touch ground and only travel through the air, a lot more of the attack is windboxes. So I took two snapshots and used the paint functionality to draw what I find to the be the range of the move. The blue outline indicates windboxes, while anything in the red zone will make victims flinch. You'll find the difference between the ground and "air" versions to be pretty interesting.

All I want to know is what sort of recoveries you may be able to edgeguard with the windboxes of Fire Breath. I always felt the move was great even when it made opponents flinch. Because then they think the entire move causes flinching, and misjudge how they should recover through it. One obstacle I should mention is that the move will still auto space even if only windboxes are hitting the target. This will push Bowser away from a ledge, to where he may not hit an opponent directly below it. And of course, the breath won't last forever at that range. Finally, as far as I can tell, the windboxes never push opponents downward, only horizontally. Despite all of this, I see potential for edgeguarding characters like another Bowser if you land the move's windboxes. Recoveries that don't move particularly fast, and take a long time to complete

 

[MagiusNecros]

Characters with linear recoveries can be gimped by aerial fire breath. Although doing so is of course a huge risk. But that is what Bowser is all about.

 

[Uncle]

I've successfully gimped a Little Mac's Up+B recovery in a tourney before using the Fire Breath windboxes. It's not the easiest thing in the world to pull off (due to the limitations that Zapp talked about), but the reward is obviously great. Even if you don't get the gimp, your opponent will usually take a good amount of damage trying to get through the wind and fire. Bowser's got numerous options that are strong for edgeguarding, and this is defnitely one of them.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've successfully gimped a Little Mac's Up+B recovery in a tourney before using the Fire Breath windboxes

With Little Mac, I highly encourage the use of fire breath. Because even if your fire breath causes him to flinch as he performs side B or UpB, the moves take him such a pitifully short length that it's not feasible for him to mash the moves into Bowser's flame to reach the ledge. And if your shortening stream has only windboxes hitting him during either move, he can forget it. Both attacks must play out before he can snap to a ledge, and any little push will end his attempt. In a customs environment, Fire breath will prove less effective. Guard Breaker (Side B 3) and Flaming Lunge (neutral 2) both have light armor to protect from low damage moves. And grounding blow (Side B 2) gives Mac actual height, allowing him to recover through the breath.

I've been testing with some other characters, and some may be promising. The first opponent you absolutely want to fire breath is Bowser Jr. When he is hit after ejecting from the clown car, it will not respawn until he grabs a ledge or lands. Light moves like Firebreath will easily keep him from the ledge. Furthermore, the side B won't be very effective at getting past the Breath if he recovers low, forcing him to resort to UpB in the first place. Edgeguarding with breath against him is far easier and safer than meeting him with an aerial.

We've discussed ROB previously and how his fuel based recovery only lets him rise for about 4 seconds total. Even if your hitboxes on breath strike him, he will still have to expend more fuel to get past the breath. And won't recover fuel until he touches ground, not a ledge. If he does reach the ledge, do whatever you can to get him offstage again asap and continue edgeguarding.

Most other characters are situational on whether Fire Breath may work. I notice that Fire Breath's hitboxes (not windboxes) will make a PK thunder disappear. Ness players don't typically want to use this move near the ledge, but when they do, Fire Breath may safely gimp them or reset their UpB as they blast into Breath's hitboxes. This is probably an edgeguard mixup rather than a true kill method.

Villager's UpB might also be possible. After testing for the balloons durability, it seems they can be popped with precisely 2% damage for each balloon, even if it's a damaging windbox. The problem is that when you pop both, Villager gets popped up in the air before going into special fall, and this instant height he gains will put him right into the portion of Breath that will make him flinch.

Firebreath making Diddy flinch while flying with Side B will force him to use his riskier UpB for recovery. Any move that makes Diddy flinch while charging or flying with UpB forces him to fall a set distance, often far enough down where a second attempt at rocket barrel won't reach the ledge. Diddy mains want to use rocket barrel as few times as possible when recovering, and fire breath can keep them out of their comfort zone in this regard

Robin is a maybe. He does have limited uses of UpB, but it's unlikely that one breath will gimp several uses of Elwind. A combined use of Fire breath and knocking him back offstage may eventually result on a gimp, but maybe an offstage aerial is the smarter option at this point. He's quite vulnerable to anything thrown at him.

Jigglypuff and Yoshi are possible as well, if unlikely. Flinching won't restore their double jumps. But jigglypuff is rarely in a scenario where she must return to the ledge, and Yoshi's double jump armor obviously lets him get past fire breath, but not if he foolishly uses a move to cover his landing onto the stage.

 

[Jerodak]

Vs Little mac up b there's a decent number of options that lead to easy gimps, Dtilt being an obvious one because it can safely hit him away from the stage after he's already used a second jump to get back, Dair can spike him, especially if he's trying to delay the ledge snap, and so can fortress OOS.

Now about firebreath gimps versus certain recoveries I know for a fact that fire breath on Diddy's up b, if timed correctly, will force him to fall helplessly to the blast zone, I even tested this with Ocho Le Troot to confirm that it works. The same works for Bowser Jr as well, but I've yet to test that with a real player to confirm. However, I do know that if you Dair Bowser Jr out of his ledge attack, he will get spiked and die because his hurtbox is still sticking out over the ledge when the I frames wear off, it's a very satisfying way to end a stock.

Speaking of Dair, I'm pretty sure Diddy's side b can be Dair'd as well, so if you read a side b going through the dunk zone, then thats a prime chance to end his stock, and if he tries to use the barrels, finish him off with short-hop turnaround fire breath to force him into his helpless state. I think the same goes for Yoshi and puff as well, if you know they will try to do an attack through the dunk zone, then dunk them, they are both pretty weak to spikes even if it doesn't K.O them outright.

Villager balloon popping is possible, but it's situational, I've managed to get a balloon pop gimp once with a combination of Bair and fortress, but honestly I think that Villager is actually easy enough to edgeguard anyway. Villager's recovery is strong, but it's also linear and easy to beat. Riding the rocket gives Bowser a free dunk, and the balloons leave Villager completely vulnerable and unable to attack you. On top of that, Villager's ledge game is kinda weak, all of the get-up options are pretty easy to deal with, and if they try to use any ledge jump stuff to get you away from the ledge just shield it and Dtilt or down b. The match-up gets so much easier when Villager is trapped offstage, at least vs default villager.

Hopefully, this is a helpful contribution!

Spoiler

Even though most of this information is probably known already!

Edit: Incidentally, I just so happened to play against a decent player who was using Bowser Jr. and I did manage to successfully pull off the firebreath gimp on his up-b. It wasn't incredibly hard either, I got it on my first try, so I guess that's confirmed if it wasn't already. Just remember you don't want him to get stuck in the fire, you just want to poke him with them, if he gets stuck then it can actually reset the recovery, you also don't need the windbox hit for this to work, it should work in any part of the fire.

 

[MrEh]

Hopefully, this is a helpful contribution!

Spoiler

Even though most of this information is probably known already!

Yeah, Diddy's upB has functioned like that since Brawl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRb0sP0-x2o#t=9m33s

Good times.

 

[Zigsta]

I've been getting a lot of mileage with a tricksie in this game, and I'd like to share with you all.

Early in Brawl, Vex liked to nair the opponent's shield, causing them to be baited to punish the nair with a grab--but the nair pushed them back a bit, so the grab would miss. As soon as Vex landed, he would fsmash, which would connect as their grab animation was ending. I tooled this a bit with dair in Brawl, as dair's windbox on the end animation pushed the opponent back. The opponent would then run in at Bowser, thinking they can punish dair's end lag, only to be hit by fsmash.

With that in mind--the idea of using a move with end lag as a mindgame to make your opponent think they can run in and punish you, only to be hit by an unexpected attack--I've been using dair to cover ledge tactics. If you space it right and the opponent jumps up to the stage, it spikes. If not (and they miss the tech--which most people do, since it's unexpected), the end portion of dair has a pretty weak windbox. Literally every single time I've done this, the opponent then tries to get back to the stage and attack me with an aerial while I'm still in dair's end lag--only to be dtitled in the face. It's a fantastic KO setup and can also be used to eat opponents' jumps.

Try it out sometime.