Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[MagiusNecros]

Intriguing.

 

[MrEh]

Makes me wish that Bowser had his old Fsmash back.

It's hilarious how Zard's Fsmash in this game is basically the same thing but better. How his entire head and neck is invincible is a mystery to me.

Tech is hella sick though. I'll try it out for sure.

 

[Jerodak]

So this has been around at least since Brawl and is still around and I was wondering if it was at all useful. So, it turns out that you can actually do pivot grabs and dash grabs out of shield. The input is to press shield then grab within a few frames of the shield, if you want to pivot grab then press back right after the grab. You should hear the shield come out as you do it, and you can even get the shield to flash momentarily right before the dash or pivot grab comes out. Now I haven't managed to get the pivot grab to still come out if the shield gets hit, but I did manage to get a reverse tilt with the same input when my shield got hit when I was running some tests with @ Big Sean . It seems on paper that this could work out as an option select but I'm not sure how many situations it'd be viable in, and I'd actually like to do some more testing with it and a few other ideas I've been mulling over as well.

In the meantime, if anyone can find a valid use for this then please feel free to share, I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say about this. Is this already common knowledge and Is it useful tech or just a parlor trick?

@ MrEh It's not only his head and neck, his entire body gains invincibility right before the hitbox activates if i'm not mistaken; It's definitely a pretty good move.

 

[Big Sean]

@ Zigsta can you explain the spacing a little bit better? Are you saying that if an opponent gets up and shields that your down air's windbox will push them off the stage? Every time I dair someone from the ledge i just get fsmashed out of shield

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zigsta can you explain the spacing a little bit better? Are you saying that if an opponent gets up and shields that your down air's windbox will push them off the stage? Every time I dair someone from the ledge i just get fsmashed out of shield

Ah, it specifically covers people trying to ledge hop, pull away jump, or stay hanging (in which case the follow-up Dtilt can hit them). So yeah, don't do it against someone you already see getting up and shielding. If they do that, punish it with something else till they're conditioned to try these other tactics.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I usually run fire breath but for some reason I feel fire shot is good for throwing something out to make recovering back to the ledge much safer? Opposing player pretty much has to react to it.

 

[Zigsta]

I usually run fire breath but for some reason I feel fire shot is good for throwing something out to make recovering back to the ledge much safer? Opposing player pretty much has to react to it.

Personally I think Fire Shot is useless. If you want to attack an opponent offstage, just go fair or bair them. If you're more inclined to use downwards-angled Firebreath, that will do a ton more damage than Fire Shot. I find the move too laggy and too low damaing to be rewarding at all, especially considering Bowser's edgeguarding options are so strong.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I am coming to the same conclusion. Fire shots applications are too limited. I would use fire roar if it did more damage but breath seems to be the way to go. I do like the way fire shot looks but it really isn't viable.

 

[Karsticles]

Indeed. After playing a lot with every custom variation, I think 1311 is the only thing that is worth doing.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

One of Fire shots biggest weaknesses in my opinion is its lack of directional range. It reaches quite far, but you can't aim it downward all the way like you can Fire Breath. If you could stand at the ledge and drop slow moving, transcendent projectiles downward on people trying to recover, it could really disrupt recoveries by stifling double jumps, causing panic air dodges, etc.

There may be hope for Fire Shot in the future. It's slow to start up, but the projectiles themselves have a passable rate of fire and damage. 4-5% and can't be hit out of the air. If you're fighting an MU where Fire Breath's application of walling out opponents and projectiles isn't necessary, than Shot can be pretty helpful. I'm thinking against Ike as a way to get him to stop charging his Side B to approach, or stifling that same move when he tries to recover horizontally with it.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

As of 1.0.6
So far, Klaw Bowsercide always kills Bowser first, no matter the stage, but Dash Klaw Bowsercide always leads to sudden death, no matter the stage. This is tested on 3ds in training mode.

Dash Klaw now stalls air momentum, preventing wave crawl shenanigans. But it now stalls air momentum. Hmmmmmm. Dash Slash is unchanged.

We can now act almost immediately out of up throw. I repeat. WE CAN ACT ALMOST IMMEDIATELY OUT OF UP THROW. 0% Up throw to UAir is a THING. Nair too. Timing for Uair is strict. At mid percent, you can UThrow into Fair. Yup, tried on Sheik at 50% and it says it's a 10 hit combo, so yeah. nvm, best I can get is a FAir true combo at 0%.

USmash nose hit box does 20% in training. No change? Gonna go test it again. Yup, 20% and 21% in normal Smash. Should be a buff because it was 19% training mode and 20% normally before (smash 4 wiki).

Also comparing with Smash 4 wiki, Bowser Bomb does 21% on the way down. Combined rising hit box + falling hit box, 25%. It was 20% before, 24% when both hit boxes connect.

DSmash is doing 17% fresh in a standard match. Kills around 130%, no rage, against a light weight.

FSmash is doing 24% for me in a standard match, clean hit.

 

[Jerodak]

As of 1.0.6
So far, Klaw Bowsercide always kills Bowser first, no matter the stage, but Dash Klaw Bowsercide always leads to sudden death, no matter the stage. This is tested on 3ds in training mode.

Does it at least kill the opponent too?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Does it at least kill the opponent too?

Klaw Bowsercide will never kill the opponent if the opponent could already recover by their own means from near the blast zone (Villager).

Also, I'll be updating (editing) the post I made above. Let me know if I should just stop that and make new posts as I test.

 

[Jerodak]

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak Dash Klaw Bowsercide will always result in sudden death, though, so just use that against Villager and the like.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Test dash claw more. Against sheik and meta knight they still survive occasionally. Same with neutral flying slam. If anything dash klaw was nerfed on the waveslash front. Dash slash master race indeed.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ MagiusNecros Is that Wii U testing?

 

[MagiusNecros]

@ MagiusNecros Is that Wii U testing?

3ds at the moment. Will check on wii u in a bit.

 

[B!squick]

I'm confirming @ UltimaLuminaire 's results, at least on 3DS. So I guess use default Klaw if you're stupid or hate yourself.

EDIT: Note: tested on FD and Omega Guar.
EDIT2: LOL! Try SHAD into UpB. Or any special.
EDIT3: I can't even get it to work with Dash Slash. Did it work like that before? I don't remember if I ever actually tried the SHAD trick with Dash Slash. Either way, doing the aerial DownB out of it is really silly looking.
EDIT4: Wait, what... Now it's actually working with Default Bowser? Wait....
EDIT5: Alright false alarm. I guess my equipment was screwing it up.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ B!squick I'm still able to SHAD into UpB.

 

[MagiusNecros]

SHAD cancels still work. Pivot grab range intact.

 

[MrEh]

They probably wouldn't nerf pivot grab since it's not like anyone uses Bowser anyway or even realizes is big except for us.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I will test the wii u version in a few hours but everything should be the same as 3ds.

 

[B!squick]

Also, I'm getting 28% on DownB and I'm pretty sure I didn't have equipment on that time.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

28% on bomb? I can only hope that I'm being debunked here because that's outrageous.

 

[B!squick]

Ah. I don't know if this is new or something that I just never realized before, but having customs on and having the AI chose random also picks random equipment and presumably specials. That's dumb. Bowser Bomb does indeed only do 24%.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ B!squick Hmm, so you're still getting 24% from bomb? I keep getting 25% when both hits connect in a standard match, 21% if it's just the falling hit box.

 

[Jerodak]

He's testing in training mode.

Edit: Faced my first Mewtwo, he seems interesting.

 

[B!squick]

@ J Jerodak Yeah, first impressions, he seems mid tier material. A couple really good moves, good recovery, a projectile. I could see someone winning a tournament with him.

 

[Cassius.]

so UThrow hasn't been changed?

these damage buffs are strange, and of course they didn't do anything to side B. I knew that was going to happen

aside from what ever side b bull**** shenanigans, 1.04 3ds and 1.04 wii u bowser were the same right? I want to compare stuff with the m2 patch bowser.

 

[GanonDuck]

so UThrow hasn't been changed?

these damage buffs are strange, and of course they didn't do anything to side B. I knew that was going to happen

aside from what ever side b bull**** shenanigans, 1.04 3ds and 1.04 wii u bowser were the same right? I want to compare stuff with the m2 patch bowser.

Ive been testing out alittle bowserciding, at it seems like Bowser always dies first now on all stages, havn't tested all of them tho, only some of the competitiv ones.

Can anyone else check if his pivot grab has been nerfed? I swear it feels like it has less magical magnet grab range.

 

[Cassius.]

when my download finishes I will let you know. I've been using pivot grab for months now lol

keep in mind that characters' hurtboxes when whiffing/using along with the disjoint on the pivot grab kind of play a part in the range. grabbing a standard opponent as opposed to someone using or whiffing jab/ftilt is a different ball game.

edit: its literally the exact same lol

and also, uthrow combos are possible and easier to do now, like Ultima said. I've down uthrow to up and fair super consistently now for true combos. NAir even works sometimes on larger characters, so that's big damage. You have to imagine that if they DI improperly UAir is all but guaranteed at this point lol

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@Cassius yeah, the first thing I did when I updated the game was test how soon we could act out of our throws. I was shocked when I tried Uthrow. It's not magical or anything, but it's nice.

 

[Cassius.]

I really wanted UThrow -> BAir to work at 0%. Tried with all of my might.

 

[MrEh]

Holy Uthrow buff

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ MrEh Hmm? I'm still getting 15%. The hit box and frame data doesn't seem any different.

EDIT: Edit train.

Oh, I was trying customs out for Neutral B, Up B, and Down B. Seems pretty much unchanged.

 

[MrEh]

I meant Uthrow.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm pretty sure we could always act quickly out of upthrow, more so than any of the other throws as far as I can tell. I remember testing this against Rosalina to see which throw was best to use vs her when Luma is still out. Up throw not only has a damaging hitbox, but Bowser should be able to throw jabs at Luma before Rosalina can input an attack. This worked most reliably with up throw because of how quickly Bowser can recover out of it, up throw is also the only throw that Bowser can get a true combo out of without the use of platform tech chase situations.

I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble or anything, just making sure we aren't falling into the typical pattern of "OHH ______ GOT BUFFED!" and then nothing really happened.


Edit: Also, as far as Bowsercide goes, I can confirm that Duck hunt is still safe.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wii U version same as 3ds. It is possible to wave land with dash slam. Just super strict. Like first 5 frames strict. Dash slash super lenient.

And our frame trap jab setups also still work.

In training I can have usmash at full charge hit 28% on the spikes. 20% uncharged!

Dsmash is 16% and 22% respectively.

We definitely do act faster out of uthrow.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak If you tell me that there was no change in frame data for Uthrow, then I'll believe you. I won't rule out me just being bad at realizing how fast we could act out of Uthrow in the previous patch.