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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

MagiusNecros

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Also remembered mewtwo is a thing. And a full charge shadow ball can be canceled out with fsmash intangibility, bair, and of course power shield.

Or dodge.

Shadow ball isn't high enough for upsmash autoguard.
 

Cassius.

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Have you tested this? It seems like Mewtwo's fully charged ball seems to ignore a lot of things in this game
 
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Cassius.

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Nah lol I'll take your word for it. I was just making sure
 

MagiusNecros

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Tough guy won't be much help against mewtwo I am afraid. But tough guy only helps in like 2 matchups anyway.
 

Uncle

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I played against a lot of Mewtwos at a smashfest last night. Here's what I think of him so far, as an opponent.

-Shadow Ball is mostly like any other charged projectile in terms of how we deal with it, as MagiusNecros said. I also want to note the insane recoil on it when Mewtwo uses it in the air. It can save him or it can screw him.

-WOW LOOK AT DAT DTILT! Mewtwo's tilt game is fast and well-ranged.

-Upthrow is still a kill throw, but not a particularly amazing one, especially against our heavy self.

-Awesome Fair by basically every measure

-Hard to edgeguard and gimp, due to the awesomeness of his teleport recovery.

-DUDE HE IS SUPER LIGHT! This is definitely his greatest weakness. He's really tall yet in the same weight class as Jigglypuff and G&W, it seems. Our Bair, Bowser Bomb, Fsmash, and Usmash will take him out really early, obviously.

Overall, he seems like a solid character so far, but his abysmal size-to-weight ratio is going to doom him to "mid tier at best" status, unless the next patch saves him.

EDIT: Upon retrospect, I should have posted this in the matchups thread or the social thread. I apologize for taking this off-topic, but I saw Mewtwo come up so I felt compelled.
 
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Cassius.

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Yeah, I would imagine that M2 has a field day with short hop fair since we're actually tall enough to be hit by it. But he's also tall enough to be hit by everything we do. Putting us in rage spells doom for him.

Offstage NAir/BAir/DAir potentially too can be annoying but we have recovery buffs wheeeeee

His jab1 in this MU is pretty good too fwiw since we don't have a combo breaking move like luigi nair to break out of jab1 setups.

Short hop NAir in neutral is good, but it has weird priority about it and I feel like USmash handles him in that respect. He can probably get really good NAir strings on us.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Tough guy won't be much help against mewtwo I am afraid. But tough guy only helps in like 2 matchups anyway.
Oh, I should mention that tough guy hasn't changed in the patch, in case anybody was wondering. And Bowser can only armor two of Mewtwo's moves while crouching, not standing. The values are:

Rapid Jab: 0-52%
Shadow Ball (uncharged): 0-33%

Nothing game breaking. I've actually found many new moves that can only be crouch armored, but most of them are rapid jabs and and sourspot dairs that wouldn't feasibly come into play. @ J Jerodak and I agree that that information is worth chronicling for reference, but not so much worth putting in the OP's tough guy spoiler tab. But if you guys really want these sorts of results listed, that could be arranged.
 

MagiusNecros

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If tough guy is unchanged it really serves to help against mostly weak jabs. With projectiles dash slash makes that a nonissue.

Main problem with going back to flying slam is the fact they made dash slash too good.
 

MrEh

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Just popping in to confirm that Tough Guy still works against Luigi's reworked fireball mechanics.
 

MrEh

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Luigi's fireballs now diminish in damage as they travel, similar to Mario's.

Since Bowser cannot Tough Guy though Mario's fireballs, I felt this was worth checking just in case.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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The threshold for tough guy on Luigi's new fireball sourspot is 0-64%. For crouching, it's 65-95%.

Funny story, I played a big part in confirming that it was an added sourspot to the move yesterday. They added simply "Luigi Fireball damage 6 > 5%", and the first thing I did was test for the new tough guy values, since damage directly affects knockback growth in Smash 4. I immediately found the change to be false, and a sourspot hit that wasn't there previously.
 

33percentgod

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Is there any use for Bowser Bomb other than "get to ledge fast?"

I'm being completely serious too. I feel like this move is completely pointless. It has like a 0.1% chance to actually land and that's if the person accidentally rolls opposite and is just button mashing wildly. It's a complete waste of a slot for a move. When is the last time an opportunity presented itself to throw Bowser Bomb? If ever?

All it ever does is allow the opponent a free kill when you miss and takes Bowser 20 mins to get his ass up again.
 
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MagiusNecros

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Is there any use for Bowser Bomb other than "get to ledge fast?"

I'm being completely serious too. I feel like this move is completely pointless. It has like a 0.1% chance to actually land and that's if the person accidentally rolls opposite and is just button mashing wildly. It's a complete waste of a slot for a move. When is the last time an opportunity presented itself to throw Bowser Bomb? If ever?
If you condition a person to shield with SH Fair's and then do Jab 1 to Bowser Bomb a shield break is bound to happen.

Dash Slash also provides opportunities to punish a mistake and go right into Bowser Bomb and if they shield and thought it was over they are in for a nasty surprise.
 

33percentgod

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Dash Slash also provides opportunities to punish a mistake and go right into Bowser Bomb and if they shield and thought it was over they are in for a nasty surprise.
I have to try doing a Bowser Bomb out of a running charge. I'm going to see how this starts to pan out. Thanks!
 

MagiusNecros

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I have to try doing a Bowser Bomb out of a running charge. I'm going to see how this starts to pan out. Thanks!
Aerial Dash Slash let's you do anything immediately as soon as you land after the slash so you can possibly legit combo right into anything you want. Should work nicely at low percents. And if they get put at the edge when it happens they could fall to their death off a shield break.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Is there any use for Bowser Bomb other than "get to ledge fast?"
Bowser Bomb is the premier "hard punish" tool of Bowser's. If somebody does something very unsafe like using a smash attack on your shield or mispacing an aerial. You can punish with the Bomb rather than a grab. The rising hit comes out on Frame 11, which is only four frames after your jab (7). Now, Bowser's jab is excellent and gives you plenty of options for followup, but if the opponent has enough damage already, Bowser Bomb deals a concise 24% damage and will kill off the top at very reasonable percents (as early as 90 or higher on middle weights). The only move of Bowsers that gives you more reward on hit confirm than Bomb is Fsmash, but that comes out on Frame 22, making it twice as slow. Bowser Bomb does not require hard reads, in fact you shouldn't read with it. Making your opponent shield out of habit is very real. Because if the rising hit does strike their shield, the only thing they can do to escape the shield break is dodge roll. A fully charged Fsmash will be your punish when you do break a shield, and that will kill at dirty percents. The act of breaking their shield might send them helpless over a ledge as well, resulting in a kill.

At low percents, I encourage you to punish with grabs and jabs. At higher percents, take the opportunities your given to secure early stocks. Bowser can stay alive very long with each life, but Bowser's opponent cannot.
 

S_B

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Is there any use for Bowser Bomb other than "get to ledge fast?"

I'm being completely serious too. I feel like this move is completely pointless. It has like a 0.1% chance to actually land and that's if the person accidentally rolls opposite and is just button mashing wildly. It's a complete waste of a slot for a move. When is the last time an opportunity presented itself to throw Bowser Bomb? If ever?

All it ever does is allow the opponent a free kill when you miss and takes Bowser 20 mins to get his *** up again.
The circumstances to use bomb are usually one of the following...

1. Bombing from the air to the ledge to get there safely, possibly doing so near an eager opponent that thinks they can hit you with an aerial in a moment (the one good thing about aerial bomb is it stops your momentum so you can sometimes bait an enemy into trying to read your position and attack there).

2. Bombing from the ground NEAR the ledge to quickly ledge trump and possibly hit the opponent.

3. Bombing on the ground when your opponent is exposed and will be hit by the startup.

Other than that, bomb generally sucks and you're better off using dair in nearly any situation where bomb would've worked when over the stage. Baiting out a grounded attack from an enemy while you're in the air is best punished with dair because bomb won't get there fast enough.

I wish they had done something to better differentiate the two attacks. As it stands, they both send Bowser downward quickly after stopping in the air, neither one has any armor neither one is interruptible and the lag from hitting the stage with either one can get you killed very easily.

The only truly redeeming feature of bomb is that you can use it while grounded and it comes out VERY fast and KOs early.

I SINCERELY wish Sakurai had taken a page out of Project M's Bowser and given bomb armor and/or made it interruptible at the peak of the jump. Then, it becomes a movement tool instead of just a move that you're locked into once it begins.
 
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MagiusNecros

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If any opponent and I mean anyone is at like 40% damage and you get a shield break you can push them to the ledge and do a full charge dropkick and take the stock.

No nonsense. No bullcrap.

50% if you want to be safe against say another Bowser.
 

Zigsta

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Is there any use for Bowser Bomb other than "get to ledge fast?"

I'm being completely serious too. I feel like this move is completely pointless. It has like a 0.1% chance to actually land and that's if the person accidentally rolls opposite and is just button mashing wildly. It's a complete waste of a slot for a move. When is the last time an opportunity presented itself to throw Bowser Bomb? If ever?

All it ever does is allow the opponent a free kill when you miss and takes Bowser 20 mins to get his *** up again.
Bowser Bomb is one of Bowser's best moves in this game, PERIOD. Use it as a hard read and punish your opponent for it--just like Bowser's Brawl fsmash was used for hard reads. And like it's been said previously, if someone's shielding near the ledge, Bowser Bomb will break their shield (and they'll fall offstage to their doom to boot).

Seriously, just start throwing it out more and more in order to outspace opponents. It's a damn good move.

Also, jab > Bowser Bomb is the truth.
 
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S_B

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I was thinking of making a new thread, but I may as well post it here instead...

What would probably help Bowser the most in this game would simply be shaving endlag off of a number of his moves. I mean, he doesn't need more knockback, nor does he necessarily need moves that come out more quickly.

What he really needs are moves that are harder to punish on a whiff or shield. Right now, even a missed GRAB leaves him standing there for way too damn long. I can respect that he's supposed to be a straight up grappler, but he has precious few moves that aren't majorly punishable and I don't believe anything he has is safe on shield.

What are others' thoughts on this?
 

MrEh

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I don't believe anything he has is safe on shield.
Smash is a game where barely anything is truly safe on block though, since powershielding is a thing and stuff is really just unsafe in general. Jab and Dtilt are pretty damn safe considering though. Jab 1 because the frames are good and Dtilt because your opponent is pushed 5 feet away and is forced to shield the 2nd hit regardless if they powershield or not. These are the only moves you would conceivably poke your opponent with anyway. Ftilt isn't and never was a good poke. It's only really useful as an anti-air.


A big issue with Bowser is that he has difficulties racking up damage compared to other heavyweights. That's not to say that Bowser doesn't do a lot of damage, but he has a very hard time getting his opponent into compromising positions where he can capitalize. DK and D3 have true combos which do a lot of damage and can be started from simple things like throws. Not only that, these characters can get their opponents into nasty situations where they can get trapped and pinned down by stuff like ledge Gordos or DK's anything.

On the flipside, Bowser/Zard/Ganon can't pressure very well, which causes them to have trouble getting opponents to the point where you can even kill them. With these characters, you're stuck playing a neutral game an awful lot. And since your neutral doesn't transition into pressure or anything substantial, it really blows.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I can agree. I mean, Ftilt and Utilt come out quickly and have excellent range. But if you strike a shield or whiff, you'll be eating a punish. I suppose Ftilt can kill at very high percents, but I don't see an excuse for Utilt. Maybe that's the one move where Bowser finally starts experiencing back pains. He's still new to that fighting stance. With most of Bowser's moves, you want to be aiming for their shields in order to create as much shield stun as possible so they can't punish you as hard. Whiffing completely is what gets you in trouble.

This sort of thing is why Jab is one of, if not the greatest tool in Bowser's kit. It's decent range for his standards and safe to poke with, even if you connect with a shield. Finishing the jab combo is also safe, as far as I've experienced. He just has excellent frame advantage with the moves. His pivot grab's enormous range makes it safe to throw out after a quick dash retreat. You'd have to be a swordsman to whiff punish that. Bowser is also a character with a lagless aerial side B, no matter what Side B he's taken into the fight.
 

MagiusNecros

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Speaking of pivot grab I have snatched players out of the air before they reach the ground. Kinda funny.
 

Braydon

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I've always felt like it's weird he doesn't hurt enemies who touch him while he's flipping over at the start of his down air. It's kind of hard to land the Dair on airborne foes because of the lack of hitbox at his starting position. I was just wondering if Bowser mains also thought there should be a weak hitbox for hit stun at the start.
 

MagiusNecros

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You know if Bowser had autoguard on the way down with his dair I would be A ok with that.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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It would give Bowser the aerial combo breaker move that he so desperately needs, but I would say no. Dair is fantastic. Whether you hit the sweetspot or sourspot it's just such a competently designed move. Bowser ascends in the air during windup allowing him to whiff punish incoming Uairs, there's a small landing hitbox that generally keeps in safe, and you can shorthop Dair spike people vulnerable on the ledge.

I'd give a weak hitbox on startup to Nair, and reduce the damage of the main three hits to compensate.
 

MagiusNecros

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Great tool for snatching up Sonic out his spin dash or Yoshi and Jiggz out of their roll attacks.
I was just doing that in training against a Lvl9. Feels great.

Edit: Dash Slam and Jab 2 both come out on frame 9?
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I've been curious about Nair for awhile and asked for clarification for the move from the frame data junkies. Looks like there was indeed a mixup when compiling frame data. There are four hitboxes to the attack instead of three. The first is whatever arm swings above Bowser first at frame 8, the second is the other arm at frame 14, and the third and fourth are both his legs at the same frame ,18, and can both hit a target at once or independently. That's why Nair creates instances of the final hit dealing 10% damage instead of 5.

So the max damage potential of Nair is 20%. How likely is it to land all four hits? Not at all likely. Against a living, breathing, human opponent who is most certainly either in motion (creating DI, even if unintentional) or shielding, the move can lose damage potential in many ways.
 
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B!squick

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Just from using NAir I could have told them it's four hitboxes. I mean, he throws out all four of his limbs and spins around, why wouldn't there be four?

Did they ever fix their mix up of Klaw's aerial and grounded active frames frame?

Also, in defense of Charizard @ MrEh MrEh , I'd like to point out that he has super armors and drawback on his FSmash. Not sure how much better or worse that is compared to Bowser's UpBOoS and Jab traps though.
 
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MrEh

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Oh believe me, I think Zard has one of the best Fsmashes in the game.

Zard still sucks though. :(
 

S_B

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It would give Bowser the aerial combo breaker move that he so desperately needs, but I would say no. Dair is fantastic. Whether you hit the sweetspot or sourspot it's just such a competently designed move. Bowser ascends in the air during windup allowing him to whiff punish incoming Uairs, there's a small landing hitbox that generally keeps in safe, and you can shorthop Dair spike people vulnerable on the ledge.
A missed Dair is VERY punishable, though. You absolutely cannot use it when the opponent is on or near the ground.
 
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