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Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

Zapp Branniglenn

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A missed Dair is VERY punishable, though. You absolutely cannot use it when the opponent is on or near the ground.
True, but it looks like the discussion we were having was about giving a startup hitbox to Dair. I commented that that would be fantastic for breaking aerial combos and juggles, which Bowser can't do with any of his aerials. Even if Dair were changed in this way, it would still be risky for dropping on grounded opponents out of the blue. That's just part of the move's design.

I still stand by my belief that Dair is scary good. It's alarmingly fast once Bowser gets going, and there's a large enough disjoint to beat several Usmashes. Even Mewtwo's. Holy cow. It still won't beat a simple shield, but the only move of bowser's that's generally safe on shield is jab. Probably Dtilt, too. Bowser should have decent frame advantage if they block the second hit, since Bowser can act soon after that. That's what I'd like to take a look at in the future. Frame advantage on moves depending on hit confirm or block.
 

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True, but it looks like the discussion we were having was about giving a startup hitbox to Dair. I commented that that would be fantastic for breaking aerial combos and juggles, which Bowser can't do with any of his aerials. Even if Dair were changed in this way, it would still be risky for dropping on grounded opponents out of the blue. That's just part of the move's design.
I like Magius' idea about the autoguard, too... :D
 
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MagiusNecros

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I mean his vulnerable part would be the underbelly and not the shell which would make sense. Either give it autoguard or let us press the attack button again to come out of dair early.
 

The pig-keeper

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Just popping in to confirm that Tough Guy still works against Luigi's reworked fireball mechanics
Alright I might sound ignorant, but what exactly is Tough guy ?
I've seen this expression many times in this thread and I still can't tell what it is..
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Alright I might sound ignorant, but what exactly is Tough guy ?
I've seen this expression many times in this thread and I still can't tell what it is..
Tough Guy is a unique property on Bowser that lets him move, attack, and jump past very low knockback moves without flinching. It's a little obscure since it only really has an impact on three matchups in the non customs setting. Luigi, Ness, and most of all Mega Man. If you want to know which moves can be armored, go to page 1 of this thread and look for the tough guy spoiler. There's a second spoiler for "crouching tough guy". When Bowser crouches and stays still, his natural tough guy armor is boosted. However, this isn't entirely relevant to the character since you can't crouch walk or Dtilt while maintaining tough guy armor.
 

Big Sean

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I know we've talked to death about exploiting the 1 frame vulnerability when sheik snaps the ledge. Still i've had trouble exploiting it myself. This video shows a bit more about where the hitbox is (not where I expected it) and makes the idea of bair-ing the opponent into the stage a bit more feasible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnaXWfUjPTA
 
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The pig-keeper

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Just popping in to confirm that Tough Guy still works against Luigi's reworked fireball mechanics
Alright I might sound ignorant, but what exactly is Tough guy ?
I've seen this expression many times in this thread and I still can't tell what it is..

EDIT : browser problem. This post isn't a spam.

Alright, Tough guy seems pretty interesting in the way of resisting a little bit more to projectile harassment and combo set-ups.
Nevertheless, I confess it is very hard to use properly making it, if I may say so, a "not-to-rely-on tool"
And of course, thanks for the explanation.
 
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S_B

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Big Sean

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Before that video I wouldn't know where to aim. I'm even seeing how the dair punish is supposed to work. I think the ideal is you run off, then wait a few frames until you are a bit below the ledge, and THEN dair. That way most of your frames coming up and down on dair can punish a sheik up b. It' s a super lasting hitbox, but with the correct spacing I think you can optimize it to be super imprecise and still spike.
 

MrEh

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Bair is actually much easier to land on Sheik than Dair. The only difference is that Dair kills her and Bair can be teched.
 

The pig-keeper

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Bair is actually much easier to land on Sheik than Dair. The only difference is that Dair kills her and Bair can be teched.
One question here :

I'm starting to use nair to edgeguard since it covers a wild area (basically 360°) and can really disturb the opponent's recovery. That's not the best option, but it can help especially against those who know what to do when a bower uses bair or dair depending on where he is on the stage.

So, does nair have knockback that could be used to edgeguard differently, not to say easier due to the hitbox ?

Furthermore, if all the hits connect, it locks the opponent long enough to make him do a punishable mistake such as too early, or failed recovery, in the case of sheik for example.
Even though, I confess it is unlikely to happen against, let's say, a decent player.

But i believe it's Worth the try !
 

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One question here :

I'm starting to use nair to edgeguard since it covers a wild area (basically 360°) and can really disturb the opponent's recovery. That's not the best option, but it can help especially against those who know what to do when a bower uses bair or dair depending on where he is on the stage.

So, does nair have knockback that could be used to edgeguard differently, not to say easier due to the hitbox ?

Furthermore, if all the hits connect, it locks the opponent long enough to make him do a punishable mistake such as too early, or failed recovery, in the case of sheik for example.
Even though, I confess it is unlikely to happen against, let's say, a decent player.

But i believe it's Worth the try !
Holy ****, I would love it if Nair pushed people downward ala the Weegee nado...
 

MagiusNecros

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Nair seems to have more hitboxes that hit opponents from behind Bowser during the attack as opposed to in front.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Nair's hitboxes are actually dependent on what direction Bowser is facing. If he's facing right, his left arm serves as the first hitbox, and if he's facing left, it's his right arm. Always whatever arm swings under him first as he cartwheels. And the arms will swing in a way that covers behind him first, never in front. I don't like the idea of Nair offstage, since the hitboxes all hit upward and first become active above Bowser. Hitting your opponent weakly upward should only serve to assist in their recovery.

Maybe if you chase your opponent offstage with a falling Nair, then recover to the ledge after them, it will ledgetrump them. But after getting hit by Nair, they're in a perfect position to Dair Bowser as he comes back up. All they have to do is choose that sort of option in the heat of the moment, rather than automatically move to grab the ledge for safety.

I like the move more when full hopping into people on platforms. As long as you keep moving past your opponent, you should be safe on shield as long as you don't land next to them. And shielding up to 4 hitboxes from an attack is much more difficult than the one hitbox you'd have to defend against from Bowser's Uair.
 

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I'll take this time to mention how horrible of an option the neutral ledge getup is. Shame that it's the best option for any character that isn't Bowser, but he has to pull up and stand around contemplating the meaning of life and the next plan to kidnap the princess. By the time he can move again, his invincibility frames have already been gone for 5 minutes.
 

MagiusNecros

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If I want to get up attack from the ledge I just get up and Bowser Bomb. If I know I'll be punished I get up ledge roll into fortress.

Otherwise you can just get up and shield. Or be silly and jump up and air fortress to the other ledge.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I'm a fan of letting go and jumping on stage with Side B. It's pretty ballsy and gives you no invulnerability frames but the command grab eats anybody hoping to shield a getup attack, and the lagless feature puts you in a neutral position against the "I'll just wait back here and react to what he does" technique. But if they chose to wind up a smash attack rather than any sort of reaction, then you'll be eating that, no question. And now that Side B gives Bowser more control, there's less chance of unintentional Bowsercide compared to before, when this was a riskier mixup. The ledge let go to jumping Side B is more powerful with the custom variants as well. Though with them, you should also remember ledge jump and using that to go straight over your opponent. Ledges just aren't very safe in Smash 4, and Bowser is no exception.

I'm actually curious which characters have the fastest/safest ledge options.
 

MrEh

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I could have sworn that neutral getup -> shield had only had 1-2 frames of vulnerability where your opponent could hit you, even when you're Bowser.
 

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I could have sworn that neutral getup -> shield had only had 1-2 frames of vulnerability where your opponent could hit you, even when you're Bowser.
I was gonna say, I feel like neutral is one of the safest options.

Bowser actually stays invulnerable as he gets up for a deceptively long time, too.
 

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Yeah I definitely don't think there are any frame differences between our neutral getup's invincibility and other character's. It's just that because Bowser is so damn large, a lot of characters can just aimlessly throw a meaty (multi-hitting moves are also really successful) move and clip us from a pretty safe distance before we can shield. It's really just a 50-50; you either get hit and the process repeats itself unless you lose your stock because they went all in with a high-risk attack, or they whiff the attack and you have enough time to get a shield up in between that or attack them for committing too hard to the move.

The standard is to either do neutral getup and then shield, or fight back with some offensive option or use forward movement. The first option kind of sucks because Bowser's rolls are still pretty mediocre, and his spotdodge is nothing to write home about...but it's Smash 4 so even things we refer to as mediocre are still really good. By now you should know you have no business jumping, so I didn't list that, but of course that's an option. Everyone and their mother knows up-b is probably coming, so the new meta now is baiting it and then killing us for it. People still use neutral getup-> Up-B though.

I would pay a lot of money to get rid of edge protection in this game. That would make Bowser a MUCH safer character.
 
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Hitman JT

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I get punished a LOT more often for the neutral getup as Bowser than as any other character. Probably due to how fast he pulls up, giving the opponent plenty of time to recognize what he's doing. Everyone else takes their sweet old time.
 

S_B

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I get punished a LOT more often for the neutral getup as Bowser than as any other character. Probably due to how fast he pulls up, giving the opponent plenty of time to recognize what he's doing. Everyone else takes their sweet old time.
Wait, do you mean how slow he gets up?

Once people know that Bowser doesn't actually become vulnerable for a while, they'll know to wait for it, but anyone not experienced in the Bowser matchup will likely try to throw something out too early and Bowser will avoid it entirely.

Hell, a number of tournament videos feature opponents throwing out smash attacks into Bowser's neutral and completely failing to hit him...
 

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It's not really reliable in this game to count on players to not be experienced against Bowser. You could get away with that in Brawl because if you didn't live in the Tristate area, Canada, Hawaii, the UK or Cali you probably never faced a Bowser for more than 2 sets in your entire smash career.

Bowser is way more common in this game, especially at the low/entry tournament level, and in the MD/VA region there are like 3+ Bowser players there, including him. A lot of players claim to have a random pocket Bowser as well, which obviously isn't anything special, but I can guarantee you that was not a possibility about a year ago.

At the mid-tournament level, like I said, players tend to just hold the jab button or use safe/meaty moves so that they don't really have to play the frame vulnerability guessing game. The same way a good amount of Bowser players lazily and haphazardly throw an Up-B at the opponent to cover ledge options/not guess on the frame window of the neutral getup is the same way we get jabbed in the face sometimes.

Using multi-hitting moves or automatic jabs is a really easy way to not have to actually guess on any specific option, and is surprisingly a very good conditioning tool as well. I'm not sure if any of you were watching S@X yesterday where a Falcon player put Boss into losers bracket, but he essentially won by just holding the A button with Falcon whenever Luigi was in a ledge situation. (what the hell is the actual name for this move? Auto jab? Rapid fire jab?). He just conditioned Boss that way, and it was surprisingly effective because he didn't actually have to guess at all until he felt the need to take a huge read and clean up a stock. But without digressing too much, we unfortunately don't have that luxurious move option. Our only equivalent is using and timing Up-B well, but that is a huge risk.

tl;dr if Bowser had an auto jab and no ledge protection he would be pretty cool. Sakurai pls
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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@ Cassius. Cassius. What are you referring to when you say ledge protection?

Bowser is pretty popular in this iteration of Smash. I like to think it's because he's isn't garbage this time around, but it also involves how easily his tools can clean house in low-level tourneys and For Glory settings. Not only does Bowser live for a long time (both due to his weight and much improved distance on Fortress), but he only needs a handful of clean hits from Dtilt, Fair, Jab followups, etc before he can take an early stock with Side B, Bomb, Usmash, Bair, maybe another Dtilt. I feel like he's the most accessible heavy character by far. He's more than that, of course, but Bowser is kind of the Falcon of Mid tier. Common enough that experienced players will know how to deal with us. But very few players know how to exploit Ganondorf or Dedede by comparison.

I'm only marginally familiar with Melee Bowser, but I didn't play Brawl competitive and he slipped under my radar when I played PM. In Melee, you spent the whole match SHFFLing Fairs, and your only kill option was the command grab from Koopa Klaw. Ledgehopping with Side B was more effective in that game because the ledge was the safest place to be in Melee. All stages were bad, so you chose the smallest one, Yoshi's Story, and his recovery was Roy level bad and pretty gimpable. His only good matchup was Mewtwo, and even that's debatable.

...yes I did play Mewtwo and Roy in Melee. Quit treating me like the scrub I was!
 
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S_B

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It's not really reliable in this game to count on players to not be experienced against Bowser.
Didn't say it was, just that some people in tournaments were still mistiming it.

It's not something we'll be able to count on for any long term, for sure.
 

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@ Cassius. Cassius. What are you referring to when you say ledge protection?
It may not be the proper term, but when I say "ledge protection", I'm referring to whatever that's stopping us from retreating to the ledge when we Up-B on the stage, or when we Up-B on a platform and can't get off of it. It's the same thing that stops Fox, Falco and Falcon from Side-B'ing off of the stage.
 

S_B

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It may not be the proper term, but when I say "ledge protection", I'm referring to whatever that's stopping us from retreating to the ledge when we Up-B on the stage, or when we Up-B on a platform and can't get off of it. It's the same thing that stops Fox, Falco and Falcon from Side-B'ing off of the stage.
Oddly, 'dorf can still side-B, but he can at least hold back and always grab the ledge.

But yeah, it'd be nice if Bowser could use fortress to retreat to the ledge again...
 
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KuroganeHammer

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I could have sworn that neutral getup -> shield had only had 1-2 frames of vulnerability where your opponent could hit you, even when you're Bowser.
Bowser's seems much better than most. I'll have to look into it.
 

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Hi guys, I've been inactive lately, but I've still been in the lab, and I might have some new proposals by the time I get back, but in the meantime...

Neutral Get-up to Bowser bomb wins pretty reliably for me, it's best to bait the opponent into trying to hit you then timing the get-up so they just whiff through your I-frames. If you time it well, there are a good number of things which can be punished with get-up to various options. Just think of it like a spot-dodge.

Also, Air-dodge cancel specials from the ledge might be worth trying if you haven't already, they work pretty well, and you can even do b-reverse down b to jump back onto the ledge to refresh your ledge I-frames if you want. I think a good use for them would be against players that like to punish you early for ledge hopping with a grab or dash attack, since you could probably fortress punish most of those in time, and even move to the center stage to make them launch offstage. Edit: I should note that Non-Omega Battlefield and Lylat gave me a lot of trouble when I was testing it on those stages. The easiest stages were Delfino and Halberd, in fact on Halberd it's almost too Easy. On Lylat it's doable as long as you mind the tilting and ledge slopes, and on Battlefield, it's just incredibly hard because of the shape of the lips, you have to neutral jump then drift and it can be very tricky. Every other stage, especially wall stages, weren't too bad.

On another note, not sure how useful this is exactly, but while I was doing some research, I noticed that grass counts as higher traction terrain. This affects a few various things, but perhaps most obviously is that grounded movement is slightly, though noticeably, better on grass than on other surfaces. If you want to test this then go to Omega Great Cave, and do a run-stop dash dance on the purple side of the stage as fast as possible, then try it on the grassy side. You should notice that you will be able to initiate each dash with a smaller gap in between them. You'll also move forward less distance during a run before your shield can come out, meaning running is potentially slightly safer on grassy stages. This might be helpful in matches versus projectile-heavy characters. I apologize if this was already known information.

There are five legal stages with Grass, all of them are Omega stages, (Mushroom Kingdom U, Galaxy, Yoshi's Story, Great Cave Offensive, Windy Hill Zone) I imagine some characters, like Luigi, would technically become slightly better on these stages because of the increased traction. It might not matter much in the long run, but I guess it's something to consider.

Hope that helps!
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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@ Genome Squirrel Genome Squirrel It's possible to Tough Guy through Martha's side b (down) variant once the multi-hits happen. Other than that, you'd have to time an OoS option between attacks, most preferably before the finisher.
 

MagiusNecros

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Bowser has one of the fastest ledge get up animations I think.

As for grabs pivot grab is the best thing ever.

If you tough guy something go for jab. Not much time for much else.
 

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Also, Air-dodge cancel specials from the ledge might be worth trying if you haven't already, they work pretty well, and you can even do b-reverse down b to jump back onto the ledge to refresh your ledge I-frames if you want.
Okay, so just to make sure I'm following this correctly, you're saying we can SHADC Down-B from ledge, onto ledge? If so, I'm not sure how safe it is considering the start-up on down-B takes some time, but holy wow, that sounds hilarious.


If you tough guy something go for jab. Not much time for much else.
Bowser's up-B comes out faster than his jab by one frame, also if you were doing crouching tough guy, d-tilt is a stellar option.
 

MagiusNecros

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I don't watch many tourney vids but Bowser's in them like to jump around a lot. Please stop doing this. I scream inside everytime I see it.
 

KuroganeHammer

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As someone who plays Sheik and also Bowser, I have this habit. lol

Bowser has one of the fastest ledge get up animations I think.

As for grabs pivot grab is the best thing ever.

If you tough guy something go for jab. Not much time for much else.
It's a bit slow actually.
 
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@ MagiusNecros MagiusNecros I used to have that empty hopping habit as Bowser. Then I read this thread. Now I'm not as much of a scrub anymore.

Which that reminds me: I need to submit some tourney matches of me in the archive. I'm going to one next Friday so I'll see if I can get some of that.
 
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MagiusNecros

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@ MagiusNecros MagiusNecros I used to have that empty hopping habit as Bowser. Then I read this thread. Now I'm not as much of a scrub anymore.

Which that reminds me: I need to submit some tourney matches of me in the archive. I'm going to one next Friday so I'll see if I can get some of that.
It's more I see a bunch of Bowser's wanting to be in the air a lot when Bowser wants to be on the ground. It's quite baffling.
 
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