Bowser in Brawl+... bad character? Or the worst character?

[B!squick]

I maybe over reacting, but I thought of Colbert randomly when I was typing out the title.

Anyway, I figured I'd make a topic to discuss the new Bowser. Here's what I said in the Brawl+ discussin topic:

Bowsers feels REALLY watered down in Brawl+. And no, it's not that Klaw Hopping is harder, it's just that it's pointless. Here's my comparison between the two:

NOTE: These are just my first impressions and I'm more than willing to play around with it some more, but I can't imagine how impossible and not fun it is to play as Bowser against an actual person. I like you guys are trying to make the game better, but nerfing an okay character which happens to be my favorite.... eh...

Brawl: Klaw Jumping was nice because it allowed for lagless jumping, which is nice. It meant you could even use BAir somewhat near the ground and not suffer from landing lag.
Brawl+: Now that Bowser suffers virturally no landing lag from either jumping or his aerials, even DAir, and can even jump higher, Klaw Hopping is obsolete. Which is good, I guess. His aerials are more spamable, but it still seems like his approach options took a big blow from this, since the aerials still have their other problems still intact, namely the range of both NAir and DAir. Plus with everyone else being faster as well... and is it just me, or is Klaw's range shorter?

Brawl: It use to be that at low percents with proper DI reading you could usually follow a Klaw up with another Klaw, a FAir, UAir, whatever.
Brawl+: In the FFA games I played against CPUs and a quick test I performed in training against a Mario, I'm finding it impossible to follow it up with anything. :/

Brawl: Fortress = virtually unbeatable priority.
Brawl+: Does it no longer have invincibily? I slowed down the game to 1/4 speed and I didn't notice any flashing. If so, that would explain why it seems like the priority of this move was drasically reduced.

Brawl: Bowser is heavy and hard to KO.
Brawl+: Bowser takes ever so slighty less damage, but because of the added hitstun this is pointless and since he's lighter AND Fortress now has priority issues, he is really easy to KO.

Brawl+ Firebreath > Brawl Firebreath = Start up lag and end lag comparison
BUT
Brawl+ Firebreath < Brawl Firebreath in the end, because it seems a lot easier to DI out of it now. So, again, more spamable, though I wouldn't say batter at all in the end since it use to deal nice damage at least some of the time.

Brawl: FSmash was fantastic for punishing and being punished if timed and/or spaced improperly.
Brawl+: FSmash is quicker and if it's shielded the amount of push back the opponent receives keeps YOU from being punished. It's lost that, "Ah ha! I have you now!" feeling and is, again, more spammable. I'm beginning to see a partern here...

Brawl: Grab release shinanegans.
Brawl+: No grab release shinanegans.
^I'm leaving this out because I knew about it before hand and it's from keeping infinites out of the picture, though this WAS one key feature that made Bowser decent.

Thoughts?

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser's pretty bad in brawl+. Definitely worse then he is now. I guess you'll just have to wait until he improves and brawl+ reaches it's final/close to final version.

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

Bowser needs MAJOR work. It may just be that I've played Brawl for so long, but he just feels really off.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I've played him for a bit.

Its not that hes worse, he's different.

Throws are much more effectivein this game (for Bowser).

Although I must concede he is slightly worse; not as major as you guys believe, however.

 

[WeeGeeSmash]

Bowser is one of my mains, and I find him to be silightly better in Brawl than in Melee.
He seems to have more speed.

What's Brawl+ BTW?

 

[Bowser King]

I've played him for a bit.

Its not that hes worse, he's different.

Throws are much more effectivein this game (for Bowser).

Although I must concede he is slightly worse; not as major as you guys believe, however.

It's not that he's amazingly bad. He's actually still usable but if you face a good player, you get destroyed pretty bad. I'd say bowser would be a low tier (if there was a brawl+ tier list) as of now. There working on him so he'll hopefully become better.

-Bowser King

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

i hope so. ^

 

[B!squick]

Bowser is one of my mains, and I find him to be silightly better in Brawl than in Melee.
He seems to have more speed.

What's Brawl+ BTW?

Travel to the Smash Workshop forum and find out.

His lighter weight means that you can actually get out of the water well on Jungle Japes... only to fall easier prey to vertical knockback and the lower cieling, lol.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Regardless he is definitely not the WORST in +. (that belongs to Samus)

 

[Bowser King]

Regardless he is definitely not the WORST in +. (that belongs to Samus)

Agreed, bowser isn't the worst. I'm not really sure who is because I haven't tested every char

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

Regardless he is definitely not the WORST in +. (that belongs to Samus)

Lol, why, what's wrong with Samus?

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

floaty as it is. ur avatar made me lol jaydeth

 

[itsthebigfoot]

brawl+ sucks

 

[J-Money]

brawl+ sucks

true, maybe we should put roy in brawl? or give everyone rocket launchers?

 

[B!squick]

floaty as it is. ur avatar made me lol jaydeth

Lol, thanks.

Also, the "buffer" aspect I was told is probably the reason for most of the issues. And I loved how the responses to each my concerns were mostly "it's your imagine" or something to that effect. :/

 

[Liquid Gen]

brawl+ sucks

Brawl is worse.

 

[MuBa]

brawl+ sucks

The game is still being made man. Don't put off a project like that.


Anyways.


One of the main reasons why Bowser feels so off in Brawl+ is because of the drastic increase in speed. Since Brawl is a slower paced game it bodes him very well in that environment, but when things went up a notch, Bowser has a hard time competing in such a fast paced environment.

Also it seems to me that for a huge character, he has small hitboxes. That is a problem. If we can get a code that can manipulate the hitbox size then this could be a good thing for him.

But really Bowser isn't all that bad in Brawl+ nowadays. Only thing I can think of with limited resources is to increase the speed of some of his attacks.

 

[Red Arremer]

Also it seems to me that for a huge character, he has small hitboxes. That is a problem. If we can get a code that can manipulate the hitbox size then this could be a good thing for him.

But really Bowser isn't all that bad in Brawl+ nowadays. Only thing I can think of with limited resources is to increase the speed of some of his attacks.

An increase of hitboxes would be great for him.

But what made him good/decent in Brawl is his enormous defensive game. If he has lost his invincibility frames on Fortress, then one of his main means of defense is gone.

 

[Eltrotraw]

How was fortress tweaked to lose invincibility?

Or rather, WHY? Wasn't this one of his prime tools to get pressure off of him in Melee? Why remove it now, especially when Brawl+ is designed to be much more faster paced ala Melee?

 

[MuBa]

The thing is we never took out his invincibility frames from his fortress UNLESS one of the code (Frame Speed Modifier) is screwing around with it. I'll test it and see if that's the problem then I'll remove it.


Also I'll make sure Bowser becomes a defensive tank in the near future

 

[B!squick]

The thing is we never took out his invincibility frames from his fortress UNLESS one of the code (Frame Speed Modifier) is screwing around with it. I'll test it and see if that's the problem then I'll remove it.


Also I'll make sure Bowser becomes a defensive tank in the near future

Thank you. The CPUs were really giving me trouble with Fortress and as said, he didn't flash like he normally does. :/

And if you could give me back my turtle powers in Brawl+ that would be fantastic.

 

[Atria]

I'm probably never ever going to play Brawl+ because I'm content with Brawl as it is, but just out of curiosity, who got benefited the most from the brawl upgrade? (Brawl -> Brawl+) Also, how's brawl+ different + better than brawl?

 

[B!squick]

I'm probably never ever going to play Brawl+ because I'm content with Brawl as it is, but just out of curiosity, who got benefited the most from the brawl upgrade? (Brawl -> Brawl+) Also, how's brawl+ different + better than brawl?

Well, from what I can tell, it plays a bit faster and everyone for the most part is a bit lighter. Oh, and hit stun is longer too. Soooo, DI is, like impossible and pointless it seems, lol. Which feels like step backwards, I don't know. It seemed like before the better players could space and DI the best. But with the increased speed and hitstun, it feels like Brawl+ was meant to bring the pros and the scrubs closer together... but we have items for that. :/

The only other major change that anyone on this board would care about is that Bowser takes 1% less damage (right?). Which seems cool at first, but with the added float and hitstun, it doesn't help Bowser at all. But at least it seems like they're trying. ^.^

And Ivysaur's a beast from what I can tell. O.o

 

[Zeallyx]

Well, from what I can tell, it plays a bit faster and everyone for the most part is a bit lighter. Oh, and hit stun is longer too. Soooo, DI is, like impossible and pointless it seems, lol. Which feels like step backwards, I don't know. It seemed like before the better players could space and DI the best. But with the increased speed and hitstun, it feels like Brawl+ was meant to bring the pros and the scrubs closer together... but we have items for that. :/

The only other major change that anyone on this board would care about is that Bowser takes 1% less damage (right?). Which seems cool at first, but with the added float and hitstun, it doesn't help Bowser at all. But at least it seems like they're trying. ^.^

And Ivysaur's a beast from what I can tell. O.o

The increased hitstun doesnt make DI pointless..and it is not 'impossible' in brawl+..
And everyone is heavier (well there is more 'gravity' in brawl+).

And brawl+ does not bring the pros and the scrubs closer together..on the contrary..brawl+ is there to make brawl a more competitive game.

 

[B!squick]

The increased hitstun doesnt make DI pointless..and it is not 'impossible' in brawl+..
And everyone is heavier (well there is more 'gravity' in brawl+).

And brawl+ does not bring the pros and the scrubs closer together..on the contrary..brawl+ is there to make brawl a more competitive game.

Then riddle me this: Why is it that I can escape from the water on Jungle Japes no problem with Bowser? As well, why is it that in tests done in both versions showed that Bowser can be KO'd sooner in Brawl+? Granted, the percent difference is minute, but I would have hoped that "Bowser takes less damage" thing would help compenstate... which it doesn't seem to.

 

[HURRICANE REV]

brawl+ sucks

I Agree.

true, maybe we should put roy in brawl?

Who needs Roy when you got Ike?

 

[B!squick]

Who needs Roy when you got Ike?

Roy made bigger and cooler explosions.

 

[HURRICANE REV]

Roy made bigger and cooler explosions.

Ike is stronger than roy.

 

[B!squick]

Ike is stronger than roy.

And this is getting horribly off topic. Do you have anything to say concerning Bowser in Brawl+ or even Brawl+ in general?

 

[HURRICANE REV]

And this is getting horribly off topic. Do you have anything to say concerning Bowser in Brawl+ or even Brawl+ in general?

Nah, I don't really use Bowser that much.

 

[Zeallyx]

Then riddle me this: Why is it that I can escape from the water on Jungle Japes no problem with Bowser? As well, why is it that in tests done in both versions showed that Bowser can be KO'd sooner in Brawl+? Granted, the percent difference is minute, but I would have hoped that "Bowser takes less damage" thing would help compenstate... which it doesn't seem to.

All I said were facts. I'm sorry but there is nothing to riddle . No offense intended.

 

[zxeon]

I thought you were just new Jay but it turns out you're an idiot. You're imagining most of those things and you were told so already so why is this thread here?

 

[The Cape]

Bowser in Brawl+ is actually a very useable and good charater.

He excells by grabbing and dealing his damage mostly on the punishment of other players. Bowser is slightly floatier than he was in Standard Brawl which makes him easier to kill yes, but at the same time it allows for the ability to get out of more combos with the use of good DI. The New Bowser Doesnt Care code no longer just takes off 1% damage per hit but under a formula of .9x/.4 where x is incoming damage.

Bowser is a defensive based character and tanks very hard, he may not be the best character in the game, but he is definetly not as terrible as you make him out to be. I love playing Bowser in Brawl+ and will have some videos for you soon hopefully.

 

[leafgreen386]

Jay, we have not edited any of bowser's B moves. They are exactly the same as they were in regular brawl. And we didn't speed up bowser's fsmash. It being safe on block is just a result of added shieldstun. Most of these "problems" are indeed simply your imagination.

Bowser gets out of the water on jungle japes easier probably because he has a slightly lower gravity setting, which was implemented in order to aid him in escaping combos. Most characters have added gravity, which is more suited to their playstyles. As a result of their higher grav values, they are slightly easier to combo while also dying at slightly higher percents off the top.

The Thick Skin code makes it so that although you're not surviving to huge percents, the number of times your opponent has to hit you to get to killing percents gives the equivalent of such huge percents. If I'm spamming a 10% damage move and have a kill move that kills at 100%, then with the thick skin code (which follows the function .9x - .4, where x is the default damage of the move), then I will need to use that move 12 times instead of the normal 10 in order to get you there. Bowser would be at the equivalent of 120% when he is hit by the kill move. If I was using a 5% move, it would take 25 hits to bring bowser above 100%, when it would normally take 20, allowing bowser to survive to the equivalent of 125%. The heavy hitting characters that deal some 15% on average would take 8 hits to bring bowser to killing percents, when normally it would only take 7, thus bowser is surviving to the equivalent of 115%. And this is only with a 100% kill move. With moves that don't kill until 115% or 125% normally, you would be surviving for much longer (for a move that kills at 115%, a character who averages 10% damage per hit will not kill you until after 14 hits, or you are at the equivalent of 140%) . As you can see, it helps him more against the characters who rack damage quickly with lots of small hits (and especially multi-hit moves (1% damage moves become .5% after thick skin)) that typically give bowser more trouble.

Ultimately, if it turns out that bowser needs more buffing in order to compete, then he will receive the necessary buffs to make him viable. Pure and simple. You don't have anything to worry about bowser not being able to fight against the rest of the cast in the final brawl+. We will make sure every character has a fighting chance.

As for whoever was mentioning samus... this is not our fault. It will be fixed in the next codeset, however, in the current release, there is a problem where we cannot modify samus's physics directly. For some asinine reason, they're actually tied to DDD's values. As in... changing DDD's values will result in samus acquiring those values, whereas changing samus's values won't do anything. Don't ask why the programmers set it up this way. We don't know, either. It certainly makes it a pain for modifying the game for us. What we do know, however, is that the next codeset will include a fix to separate them, allowing samus to be tweaked individually.

 

[B!squick]

And everyone is heavier (well there is more 'gravity' in brawl+).

All I said were facts. I'm sorry but there is nothing to riddle . No offense intended.

Bowser gets out of the water on jungle japes easier probably because he has a slightly lower gravity setting, which was implemented in order to aid him in escaping combos. Most characters have added gravity, which is more suited to their playstyles. As a result of their higher grav values, they are slightly easier to combo while also dying at slightly higher percents off the top.

Uh... I guess I'll believe the person with the longer post as he seems to know more about what he's talking about and I know for a fact he IS lighter as I tested it many times to be SURE.

As for whoever was mentioning samus... this is not our fault. It will be fixed in the next codeset, however, in the current release, there is a problem where we cannot modify samus's physics directly. For some asinine reason, they're actually tied to DDD's values. As in... changing DDD's values will result in samus acquiring those values, whereas changing samus's values won't do anything. Don't ask why the programmers set it up this way. We don't know, either. It certainly makes it a pain for modifying the game for us. What we do know, however, is that the next codeset will include a fix to separate them, allowing samus to be tweaked individually.

Okay, well, that would explain that then, lol.

I'm gonna test Fortress more. It's not that I don't believe you, as you would have no reason to change it, but like I said, it lacks flashing and I got hit out of it alot more often than usual.

And please keep flames to yourself. No one wants to be a flamer... unless you swing that way. >.> Which is fine, I'm okay with it. Just keep it to yourself, m'kay?

EDIT: Nevermind, I couldn't figure out a reliable way to test it.

 

[Revven]

Yeah uh, we didn't change any of Bowser's moves, period. Only the following was done: lowered gravity and he receives less damage (thick skin). We're open to better ideas Bowser mains, if you've got'em, we want'em, just not too crazy plz.

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. The only reason why Bowser's Fsmash may feel faster is because of the lowered hitlag. If you don't know what hitlag is, an example of it would be Falcon's knee and how it keeps you in that frozen position forever in regular Brawl but in Brawl+ it's more like his Melee knee now.

 

[Bowser King]

Yeah uh, we didn't change any of Bowser's moves, period. Only the following was done: lowered gravity and he receives less damage (thick skin). We're open to better ideas Bowser mains, if you've got'em, we want'em, just not too crazy plz.

Edit: Forgot to mention one thing. The only reason why Bowser's Fsmash may feel faster is because of the lowered hitlag. If you don't know what hitlag is, an example of it would be Falcon's knee and how it keeps you in that frozen position forever in regular Brawl but in Brawl+ it's more like his Melee knee now.

Take away that stupid "bower and yoshi have no CG". It's stupid, the both are bad chars and instead of improving them and allowing them to be semi-usable, you guys ruin his grab. Grabbing with bowser is close to pointless. He's throws suck and out of release is only a shadow of it's former self.

CG's aren't bad thing. They don't make bowser amazing and neither are they abused or so good in a matchup that they make it 70-30-65-35 bowser.

-Bowser King

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Brawl is worse.

mental play is not only in brawl, but required, brawl+ right now seems to be "either pick snake and cancel the crap out of all aerials"

The game is still being made man. Don't put off a project like that.

the game is being made much too early, brawls metagame is not nearly at its end, and you're not only trying to add in a bunch of new features, but eventually rebalance the entire cast, and to do that now is WAY to premature

I Agree.

he knows what's up

 

[shanus]

Jaydeth, Bowser being lighter is marginally true. He dies 1% earlier off the top. 1%.

He negates so much more damage that in fact he truly dies later.

New Applied Damage = .9 * INCDMG - .4

This means low damage moves scale at almost 50% damage input, whereas it still cuts off almost 2.5% off of attacks which deal 20%. This means bowser lives SUBSTANTIALLY longer. If you assume inc damage is 60% of lighter attacks and 40% of heavier attacks, to kill bowser off the top at 137% actually requires an input of 202% damage. Hardly dying any earlier Jaydeth, it just APPEARS to be earlier.

Please look through the changelist text to realize most of the changes you claim are figments of your imagination as a lot has changed. Bowser plays a lot better and it doesn't mean we won't buff him more. But right now, we are looking for feedback and it seems you just got started with it. You might be hit out your fortress more frequently because you might be in shieldstun trying to fortress and get it off too late now instead?

 

[B!squick]

Jaydeth, Bowser being lighter is marginally true. He dies 1% earlier off the top. 1%.

I forgot to mention this earlier. This I do know. And it's very minute. But 1% sooner is still sooner. If anything, Bowser should be heavier. I know, that would make him easier to juggle, but that's what the tough skin thing is for, right?

He negates so much more damage that in fact he truly dies later.

New Applied Damage = .9 * INCDMG - .4

This means low damage moves scale at almost 50% damage input, whereas it still cuts off almost 2.5% off of attacks which deal 20%. This means bowser lives SUBSTANTIALLY longer. If you assume inc damage is 60% of lighter attacks and 40% of heavier attacks, to kill bowser off the top at 137% actually requires an input of 202% damage. Hardly dying any earlier Jaydeth, it just APPEARS to be earlier.

Here's the thing though. Assuming it rounds up normally (.5 and above), attacks that deal 1% deal damage normally. Attacks that deal 2-11% deal 1% percent less. 1%. 12-21%, 2% less. As I said earlier, it's barely noticable. In fact, I didn't notice it all all. Probably because stale moves is gone. So we have a Bowser that's 1% loftier, takes 1-2% less damage from most attacks and over time, those attack deal much more damage than they use to anyway, and the added hitstun make for a Bowser that appears to get KOed earlier probably because he is.

You might be hit out your fortress more frequently because you might be in shieldstun trying to fortress and get it off too late now instead?

Ah ha. That would probably explain it then. So the super safe Fortress OoS is gone now.... how exactly is Bowser better, again? What am I missing? O.o