Bowser in Brawl+... bad character? Or the worst character?

[shanus]

It doesn't round up Jaydeth.

 

[MuBa]

the game is being made much too early, brawls metagame is not nearly at its end, and you're not only trying to add in a bunch of new features, but eventually rebalance the entire cast, and to do that now is WAY to premature

Brawl's metagame will not go that far. That's plain and simple. People have tried to find so many ATs or anything that will speed up the game and it's pretty much a dead end.

And in Brawl+ we have found many more ways to implement new ATs. The metagame in Brawl+ will definitely be much more deeper than what Brawl is itself could ever achieve.

The game's been out for a year and the competitive scene is much larger thanks to Melee. You can play Brawl if you want, I don't care, but calling Brawl+ bad is just plain stupid, especially when you haven't even tried playing it yet.

 

[B!squick]

So it rounds down then for whatever reason? Okay... that means this then:

vB % damage on Bowser|B+ % damage on Bowser
================================
1 | 0
2 | 1
3 | 2
4 | 3
5 | 4
6 | 5
7 | 5
8 | 6
9 | 7
10|8

^If so, then that kinda contradicts the "Bowser takes 1% less damage from all sources" (Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220363). Unless it doesn't round at all. So then is the damage that's less than 1% tacked on invisably or what?

 

[shanus]

So it rounds down then for whatever reason? Okay... that means this then:

vB % damage on Bowser|B+ % damage on Bowser
================================
1 | 0
2 | 1
3 | 2
4 | 3
5 | 4
6 | 5
7 | 5
8 | 6
9 | 7
10|8

^If so, then that kinda contradicts the "Bowser takes 1% less damage from all sources" (Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220363). Unless it doesn't round at all. So then is the damage that's less than 1% tacked on invisably or what?

It doesn't round period. The damage is actually added on in decimal form, the game just doesn't display it that way. Thats why sometimes you'd see certain moves do 1% or 2% (in both melee & brawl_ because the game doesn't display the decimal.

So the code would be like this:

01 inc damage --> .5
02 inc damage --> 1.4
05 inc damage --> 4.1 dmg
10 inc damage --> 8.6 dmg
20 inc damage --> 17.6 dmg


Pretty substantial..... thats also an outdated description. If you read the changelist it says that Bowser's damage now follows a new equation: .9X-.4

 

[B!squick]

It doesn't round period. The damage is actually added on in decimal form, the game just doesn't display it that way. Thats why sometimes you'd see certain moves do 1% or 2% (in both melee & brawl_ because the game doesn't display the decimal.

So the code would be like this:

01 inc damage --> .5
02 inc damage --> 1.4
05 inc damage --> 4.1 dmg
10 inc damage --> 8.6 dmg
20 inc damage --> 17.6 dmg


Pretty substantial..... thats also an outdated description. If you read the changelist it says that Bowser's damage now follows a new equation: .9X-.4

I see. But both of those descriptions are in the same post if I remember correctly, lol.

Now it begs the question, does it compensate for the lack of stale moves? I have no idea how stale moves works. I just know moves get worse the more you use them.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Brawl's metagame will not go that far. That's plain and simple. People have tried to find so many ATs or anything that will speed up the game and it's pretty much a dead end.

most common misconception ever

metagame does not mean finding AT's, at all, some games don't even have AT's (super turbo anyone?)

the metagame still has depth simply because people are consistently winning, m2k and dsf are on another level, and getting better, meaning that there is more to the game than what people are playing. that is all a metagame is, and as long as one persons better than the rest, the metagame is there.

unfortunately most people have little to no mental play (and are really boring to play because of it) and assume that the game is based entirely on doing fancy crap, which is why melee has a lot of super technical players that lose because they do the same **** thing every time. A game does not need to be super technical, it just needs to allow for prediction and mental play in order to have depth, that is all that is needed.


if rock paper scissors had a weighted risk-reward system it would be a deep game, even if you can't scissor cancel

 

[B!squick]

if rock paper scissors had a weighted risk-reward system it would be a deep game, even if you can't scissor cancel

That's going in my sig.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

eh, it's not as good without the setup

 

[B!squick]

How about like this?

metagame does not mean finding AT's, at all, some games don't even have AT's (super turbo anyone?)

if rock paper scissors had a weighted risk-reward system it would be a deep game, even if you can't scissor cancel

 

[itsthebigfoot]

thats a bit better

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

mental play is not only in brawl, but required, brawl+ right now seems to be "either pick snake and cancel the crap out of all aerials"

ahhahhhahahahhaa

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ he who laughs last thinks slowest

 

[shanus]

Jaydeth, can I ask you to edit your OP and remove most f what you said since it isn't true?

Also, as I mentioned before, please read the changelist a bit more so you can be better informed. Your asking about stale moves when we have a code which blatantly says "No Stale Moves."

Also, TheCape played against the top smashers in NC (all of whom have been actively playing Brawl+), and his Bowser he said was outplaying his mario. TheCape's mario was being outperformed by his bowser. Food for thought on why Brawl+ is awesome.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, bigfoot, you're saying that brawl+ doesn't have prediction and mental play, and thus lacks depth.

Before I continue, have you played brawl+? By this I mean have you played a recent version of brawl+?

 

[B!squick]

Jaydeth, can I ask you to edit your OP and remove most f what you said since it isn't true?

No. Because as I stated:

These are just my first impressions

Also, as I mentioned before, please read the changelist a bit more so you can be better informed. Your asking about stale moves when we have a code which blatantly says "No Stale Moves."

Are you refering to this?

Now it begs the question, does it compensate for the lack of stale moves? I have no idea how stale moves works. I just know moves get worse the more you use them.

If so, then I must ask that YOU please read a bit more. I'm asking if the Bowser taking less damage code compensates for... for the lack of stale moves, I don't see how you misinterpreted that. :/

Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, TheCape played against the top smashers in NC (all of whom have been actively playing Brawl+), and his Bowser he said was outplaying his mario. TheCape's mario was being outperformed by his bowser. Food for thought on why Brawl+ is awesome.

Not to rain on your parade, but I've seen decent players suck with MK. One person, whom I've never heard of, doing better with Bowser than Mario in Brawl+ doesn't really do much to change my feelings on it. B+'s Bowser probably just suites his play style more now. I've yet to hear from anyone on the Bowser board that Bowser is more than what he was, just opposite in fact. That's a statement that carries much more meaning I would think.

 

[shanus]

TheCape was an amazing mario in melee, and notably one of the best melee Bowser's in the east coast. He is a very highly reputable, competitive level smash player.

Also, no stale moves benefits all characters in that moves now give guaranteed knockback and no decay in damage percentage allowing for more knowledge on exactly how your opponent will behave in being hit.

And the reason I asked you to remove your first impressions was because even if they are first impressions, they are full of misinformation. New bowser plays might read this and instantly discount Brawl+ because of these first impressions, which lack no validity whatsoever. Its not meant to attack you as a player, its merely to only place the correct information available to other players.

 

[B!squick]

TheCape was an amazing mario in melee, and notably one of the best melee Bowser's in the east coast. He is a very highly reputable, competitive level smash player.

Also, no stale moves benefits all characters in that moves now give guaranteed knockback and no decay in damage percentage allowing for more knowledge on exactly how your opponent will behave in being hit.

Okay, so it's not that Bowser get's KOed sooner, it's that Bowser gets KOed sooner, just like everyone else.

And the reason I asked you to remove your first impressions was because even if they are first impressions, they are full of misinformation. New bowser plays might read this and instantly discount Brawl+ because of these first impressions, which lack no validity whatsoever. Its not meant to attack you as a player, its merely to only place the correct information available to other players.

It's not my fault if people are stupid. I moved the last paragraph to the top and I bolded and italicised it. Is that okay?

And I've still yet to hear a convincing argument of Brawl+ Bowser being better. And Brawl+ froze on me again earlier, so I'm having a hard time trying to enjoy it.

 

[shanus]

There is one guaranteed freeze which has happened to me only twice so far. It means you are holding a direction after a match has ended in a certain way.

Edit:

Also toying with a few changes for bowser which could be very very beneficial to him:

Less lag on utilt
Speed up entire ftilt
less lag after dtilt

thoughts?

 

[B!squick]

There is one guaranteed freeze which has happened to me only twice so far. It means you are holding a direction after a match has ended in a certain way.

Mine happened mid match.

Edit:

Also toying with a few changes for bowser which could be very very beneficial to him:

Less lag on utilt
Speed up entire ftilt
less lag after dtilt

thoughts?

I like the sound of those changes.

EDIT: However, the added shield stun hurts Bowser more than a little.

 

[shanus]

Mid match?

What codeset, stage, chars, etc if you still remember? We haven't had reports of a freeze mid match in a long time.

 

[B!squick]

Let's see. I was using the code from the Plussery or whatever. I was playing Adventure mode or whatever. I picked Bowser. Then I had to fight Bowser. Of course it gave us the second Mushroomy Kingdom to fight on (the underground one) and it froze shortly after it started. Like about when the screen met the right edge of the hole in the ceiling where you start out at.

The second time... I totally forgot how it happened. :/ I'll try to keep better track of things like this.

EDIT: And why does my sig only pop up sometimes? -.-

 

[shanus]

Ahhh, you were testing out non-versus mode parts of the game. Yeah, things like subspace might not work lol

Also sigs don't show up on short messages even if u have th ebox checked now

 

[B!squick]

Ah, okay. Thanks.

 

[shanus]

Jaydeth, try out this set:
http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/Smashcodes/3-10-2009/US/

Please let me know what you think of the Bowser changes. Please make sure neither the utilt or dtilt lock on shields. If the camera is a little weird, I'm trying out a new code.

 

[B!squick]

Couple questions. Don't know what you mean by "lock on shields." And how do I implement these new changes?

 

[CountKaiser]

I think what he means is that they can keep someone in their shield due to shieldstun.

 

[shanus]

Download the RSBE01.gct and replace the file in your SD folder "codes" with this new one.

 

[kupo15]

Take away that stupid "bower and yoshi have no CG". It's stupid, the both are bad chars and instead of improving them and allowing them to be semi-usable, you guys ruin his grab. Grabbing with bowser is close to pointless. He's throws suck and out of release is only a shadow of it's former self.

CG's aren't bad thing. They don't make bowser amazing and neither are they abused or so good in a matchup that they make it 70-30-65-35 bowser.

-Bowser King

We don't have a knockback code yet which can fix his grabs and all grabs that suck for that matter.

 

[B!squick]

Okay, I'll ty it out tomarrow if I get up soon enough. I wish I had an actual person to play against though. :/ Well, other than my roommate anyway. He barely plays Brawl, but he seems to be really happy that Ness is better.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I would say he's pretty bad especially with the melee animations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJXVvHmG5ew&feature=channel_page

 

[B!squick]

I would say he's pretty bad especially with the melee animations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJXVvHmG5ew&feature=channel_page

... Congrats on your trolling/spam.

 

[MrEh]

For the record, I think Brawl+ is fun. Great for friendlies and such. Hitbox editing aside, the only viable thing I can think of is buffing his attack speed. (and a couple other things) Just some suggestions from me, whether or not it's integrated is up to the team. (supporting you guys 100% btw)


- Make his tilts and aerials faster and slightly less laggy. Without hitbox editing, this is the most useful thing I can think of at this time. Faster attacks helps Bowser be somewhat more competitive.

- Make Fsmash have more knockback. There's no need to speed it up or decrease the lag. It's meant to be a high risk/reward move anyway.

- Make the Fortress slightly stronger and less laggy. Melee Fortress was hilariously awesome.

- Do both hits of the Bowser Bomb actually combo in Brawl+? I never bothered to check. If it does, then SWEET. If not, then make it happen. ^^

- Once you guys figure out how to edit hurtboxes, make Bowser's Fortress have invincibility frames from frame 1-6, instead of the usual frame 1-5. That will make the Fortress so much better.

 

[B!squick]

For the record, I think Brawl+ is fun. Great for friendlies and such. Hitbox editing aside, the only viable thing I can think of is buffing his attack speed. (and a couple other things) Just some suggestions from me, whether or not it's integrated is up to the team. (supporting you guys 100% btw)


- Make his tilts and aerials faster and slightly less laggy. Without hitbox editing, this is the most useful thing I can think of at this time. Faster attacks helps Bowser be somewhat more competitive.

- Make Fsmash have more knockback. There's no need to speed it up or decrease the lag. It's meant to be a high risk/reward move anyway.

- Make the Fortress slightly stronger and less laggy. Melee Fortress was hilariously awesome.

- Do both hits of the Bowser Bomb actually combo in Brawl+? I never bothered to check. If it does, then SWEET. If not, then make it happen. ^^

- Once you guys figure out how to edit hurtboxes, make Bowser's Fortress have invincibility frames from frame 1-6, instead of the usual frame 1-5. That will make the Fortress so much better.

What he said. And lessen that stupid shield stun! x_x

 

[zxeon]

Brawl+ is also good for tourneys and such Mr.Eh.

Are you going to do something about your first post Jay? Most of the things in it are just plain wrong. Don't spread misinformaition about Brawl+. You are doing the project a Disservice.

 

[MrEh]

Brawl+ is also good for tourneys and such Mr.Eh.

I can imagine that it would be. ^^

Sadly, Hawaii doesn't have much interest in it.

 

[Ismael]

Take away that stupid "bower and yoshi have no CG". It's stupid, the both are bad chars and instead of improving them and allowing them to be semi-usable, you guys ruin his grab. Grabbing with bowser is close to pointless. He's throws suck and out of release is only a shadow of it's former self.

CG's aren't bad thing. They don't make bowser amazing and neither are they abused or so good in a matchup that they make it 70-30-65-35 bowser.

-Bowser King

Bowser isn't a bad character in Brawl so I don't know wtf your talking about. He's actually pretty good, and... *looks at tier list* is actually amazing. Brawl+ just makes him... different. Giving Bowser one thing simply makes him lose another. It's even exchange. He dosn't exactly become... better.

 

[B!squick]

My first impressions are exactly that. My impressions. At first. It's clearly stated as such. And in case no one has realised it, those impressions then are probably different than what they are now. They were just first. My first impressions. They're what I thought, at the time. At first. If anyone cares, they follow the discussion as it developes. If they don't, they ignore it.

If you feel it's bad for business, ah well. Anyone who takes first impressions as fact is stupid and we're all better off then anyway.

But I agree with bowser king, Bowser is total fail. /UBER sarcasm, just so we're clear and that's not going to change.

 

[Bowser King]

Bowser isn't a bad character in Brawl so I don't know wtf your talking about. He's actually pretty good, and... *looks at tier list* is actually amazing. Brawl+ just makes him... different. Giving Bowser one thing simply makes him lose another. It's even exchange. He dosn't exactly become... better.

Ummm.....I was talking about him in brawl+. I said neither of them are good (as in brawl+ neither are good).

Jay, I said bowser was actually a not-so-bad char. He's worse then his former self and likely would go in low tier but I never said he was the worst. In fact, that would be you *points to title*

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

Hey, I was only kidding. You know Colbert would go to the different districts to talk with the different congressmen and women and he would always ask, "President Bush... great president? Or greatest president?" Same idea here. x_x Did anyone actually think I wasn't kidding?

But I do think that Bowser is, yes, very different than what he was, but probably not getter. He SHOULD be perfect for B+ because it seems to be much more aggressive game. But! Oh darn, added shield stun. Now Bowser's OoS options are less effective. As I discovered, even Fortress OoS clanks or, not uncommon, gets beaten out by another attack! T_T Well, at least I can SH aerials like there's no tommarow, right?

Picking up Diddy Kong seems like a better and better choice. Especially since Bowser can't get around those stupid bananas now that Klaw Hopping has to be frame perfect. :/ And Diddy seems like someone who benefitted alot from the "no stale moves" thing.

 

[Ismael]

Hmm, I misunderstood you. You said they're both bad characters so I assumed you meant in general.

But dosn't his tradeoffs atleast even out, so that he's simply changed? I thought that with hacking there's no way that you can actually make a character worse... lol.