Bowser general discussion thread.

[FalconOwnage]

Is fortress hogging as good as it is in Melee?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's much harder to do reliably this time around, for probably a few reasons. First, the Melee trick where you just put the stick in one of the corner notches to get the perfect speed where you'll still grab edge does not work. Also, the momentum seems wonkier somehow, especially out of hitstun. Usually, I'm driven nuts by claims that Melee just feels better, but I still find myself uncertain exactly what it is that makes the business feel funny.

Maybe someone else has done more research and can articulate the problem better.

 

[Jacob29]

It's arguably better.

While Odds I think is right that it's easier to pull of in Melee due to the corner trick, he does have more and better options from the ledge in PM which I say makes it overall stronger.

 

[PootisKonga]

Nope, if you fall off the ledge during the last frame of Up-B Bowser won't grab it. Rather, what you want to do is fall off and immediately hold the stick toward the ledge. The timing is a bit tricky, but it's possible to very quickly transition from Up-Bing to ledge hogging with minimal slowdown before you drop. Here is a video that Odds made regarding a few of Bowser's character-specific tech options.

After trying this out, I get the feeling that it is momentum based? If i move the stick towards the ledge just as i fall, I slip off, but too early and I don't leave the stage at all

 

[Frost | Odds]

After trying this out, I get the feeling that it is momentum based? If i move the stick towards the ledge just as i fall, I slip off, but too early and I don't leave the stage at all

It seems to be momentum based, yes. You may have more luck with just gently moving the stick (halfway or so) back the way you were coming, rather than mashing it all the way. I haven't experimented too much with it in a while.

 

[Abeebo]

You guys hold the opposite direction to Fortress Hog? WEIRD. I just let my control stick snap to neutral before I slide off the edge. Works every time.

 

[Jacob29]

Whenever I've tried that I just fall off and die.

 

[Abeebo]

Whenever I've tried that I just fall off and die.

I honestly never had to tilt the stick towards the stage to perform FH. I'll tell you, letting go of the stick works and reduces room for error. Personally, I take the cue to let go from how close to the ledge I am/how far i'm pulling the control stick. If I UpB with full momentum/smash the stick, I let go of the control stick before any of Bowser's body is over the ledge. If i'm really close to the ledge/tilt the stick, i'll approach it slowly (though it's a little trickier) and let the control stick go as soon as Bowser goes past the edge.

 

[PootisKonga]

I'm well aware that CPUs do not make good practice, but is the dramatic increase in successful Fortress Hogging as well as JC'd Bowser Bomb followups a sign of some kind of improvement?

 

[Frost | Odds]

CPUs can make excellent practice for tech stuff, combos, and spacing practice. A fun way to practice movement is to practice running around the stage, wavelanding, doing whatever, trying to avoid taking a single hit from a cpu.

The trick is to make sure that you're actually practicing exactly one combo or whatever at a time. Narrow your focus as much as possible.

 

[Abeebo]

I'm well aware that CPUs do not make good practice, but is the dramatic increase in successful Fortress Hogging as well as JC'd Bowser Bomb followups a sign of some kind of improvement?

Performing Fortress Hogging? Sure. This doesn't require interaction with an opponent. Gimping with a Fortress Hog/JCBowser bomb follow ups? Kinda gray area. Playing with CPU's is fine because you have room to try different and stupid stuff and be more attentive to fortunate accidents that could lead you to new possibilities and tech. Knowing if these possibilities and techs will work come crunch time will require a human opponent that can DI, react, plan ahead, and even figure out your human mannerisms. CPUs simply react in fractions of a second every time without reading, guessing, or planning, which is very unhuman like, which can take away from your applicable possibilities and tech over time.

Keep everything you've figured out so far. Go fight people for hours and hours and hours and use everything you've figured out so far. Weed out what didn't work and refine what did so it works every time you need it. BAM. You just leveled up my friend.

 

[PootisKonga]

@ Frost | Odds @ Abeebo
Thanks so much you two :3

Tomorrow will be my first day playing a decent Bowser against actual players. Wish me luck! I'll edit my progress in sometime during the week

Edit: I forgot to say this earlier, but upB OoS is also giving me trouble. I jump OoS but use upB while in jumpsquat, correct? Do I need to let go of the shield button once I jump?

Edit2: Here's how today went: I trounced a rather good player who was Pit in Smashville. I felt confident in my abilities.

Then my local God of PM comes along and soundly beats me around fifty times, no exaggeration. He beats me with Ganon, Link, Sonic, Olimar, Falco, Fox, and Snake. He didn't even need to play seriously: One match he used almost exclusively Link's Boomerang with the occasional Spin Attack thrown in! I was salty afterwards, and I don't even get frustrated.

 

[PootisKonga]

Editing this one because of accidental double post.

Day 2 of Bowser: The guy who thrashed me Monday wasn't there, oddly enough. I also did pretty well against one player that could fight him pretty well as well as someone he was apparently teaching. He tended to capitalize on my more committed attacks with grabs, but unlike the first guy he left openings that I was able to exploit, and Uair was the bane of his main, Kirby.

My Fortress Hogs weren't as "on point" as they could have been, but I did plenty of BBJC follow-ups, though most were more about threatening space than actual damage since the second guy didn't really know the matchup well. Ledge Cancelled BBs were hilariously effective. He also kept rolling away from my DThrows only to get a Dashed Koopa Klaw to the face. Otherwise, his Link was where I had trouble: Boomerang is annoying since I apparently can't armor through it and he had this short combo that always seemed to work, I think it was approaching SH Zair -> Utilt -> Uair. Flame Cancels were great for annoying him, though, and for edgeguards it worked like a charm.

I also started to get the hang of UpB OoS by turning Tap Jump back on. Now that I have learned to use the C-stick for all of my aerials it doesn't make sense to get rid of it anymore.

 

[Ace55]

God I hope fortresshogging is reverted to pre-3.0 style in 3.5. I miss playing Bowser.

 

[PootisKonga]

God I hope fortresshogging is reverted to pre-3.0 style in 3.5. I miss playing Bowser.

How was Fortress Hogging changed, exactly?

 

[Frost | Odds]

2.6 bowser was kinda stupid (especially at low levels) because the fortresshog auto-snapped to ledge every time - so Bowser play consisted almost entirely of degenerate ledgegames.

3.02 Bowser is kinda dumb because fortresshogging is way too unreliable for how necessary it is/how often you need to do it. The risk/reward is just too skewed, especially considering how terrible of a character Bowser is to begin with.

 

[PootisKonga]

How should I approach the Fox MU? I was doing well against a good one earlier, I was one stock up on him until I get shine spiked for my third stock, then the last was just a blur... After a bit of fighting I was on the leftmost side of Smashville, and in a time frame in which I couldn't seem to react at all I'm suddenly offstage and getting shine spiked again for my last

edit: "stick"

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'll reserve comment on that until after know if/how bowser changed in 3.5.

 

[Ace55]

2.6 bowser was kinda stupid (especially at low levels) because the fortresshog auto-snapped to ledge every time - so Bowser play consisted almost entirely of degenerate ledgegames.

Yeah, I probably should've said remove the artificial technical barrier on it, not make it exactly like it was (and for the most part is). Bowser took/takes a dump on PM recoveries, it might be a bit overwhelming in 3.5.

Still so salty about that change. If you want to nerf it, nerf it. Don't make it harder to perform...

 

[PootisKonga]

I'll reserve comment on that until after know if/how bowser changed in 3.5.

.. My mistake, I temporarily forgot that 3.5 was going to be a major overhaul for most characters. Guess we'll see if stage-wide combos to insta-gimps are still possible then lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, I probably should've said remove the artificial technical barrier on it, not make it exactly like it was (and for the most part is). Bowser took/takes a dump on PM recoveries, it might be a bit overwhelming in 3.5.

Still so salty about that change. If you want to nerf it, nerf it. Don't make it harder to perform...

Agreed. I'd be all for a straight up nerf to up-b in terms of grounded distance travelled and possibly other stuff. Overall I just wish Bowser were less dependent on that and his ledge game, and more of a real character.

 

[Anonistry]

Overall I just wish Bowser were... more of a real character.

Said just about 95% of all heavy/grappler archetypes players in fighting/fighteresque games ever.

Seriously epidemic with the fear of the slow, heavy character not being "slow and heavy enough" because of DAMAGES, even though inevitably their damage isn't even all that better than the next guy. Usually just more compacted into less moves, somehow.

 

[Abeebo]

Bowser's jump/wavedash is delicious cream now, and Dsmash is way faster. Time to rock. GG everyone.

 

[Hobobloke]

Only real loss seems to be that fortress hogging is even harder now.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Only real loss seems to be that fortress hogging is even harder now.

What? But it's not...and you don't just die for trying it. It's slightly slower but I got the hang of it in like 5 minutes. o.o Just keep working on it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Holy ****, when I asked for Bowser to have better movement options I never thought it would HAPPEN. Wavelanding is HUGE and a better jumpsquat + some other stuff is GREAT.

I mean, it's not gonna make him a super high tier beast but he's gotten a lot more to work with in terms of getting around. When I saw some people doing the old kneejerk "He still sucks" I couldn't believe it. He's got quite a bit more tricks for mobility now!

 

[Frost | Odds]

How should I approach the Fox MU? I was doing well against a good one earlier, I was one stock up on him until I get shine spiked for my third stock, then the last was just a blur... After a bit of fighting I was on the leftmost side of Smashville, and in a time frame in which I couldn't seem to react at all I'm suddenly offstage and getting shine spiked again for my last

edit: "stick"

Okay. Basically, you want to gently force him to one side of the stage until he feels pressured to the point where he's going to try to get past you to the center of the stage - because he's scared of being offstage against Bowser. Figure out where his threshold is, and punish whatever he uses to get past you (if he jumps over, hop and nair; if he tries just running through you, upB or something; if he rolls, dsmash).

You want to restrict Fox's breathing space as much as possible so he can't do his degenerate DD stuff. Fortunately, now that Bowser is vastly more mobile, it's much easier to regain center stage once you've lost it. Just hop and perfect waveland off a platform. When you hit the ground afterward, mix up what you do (ie. waveland again, dash attack, flame cancel, side b, up b, wait, etc).

Most important thing is to not commit to an attack unless you have to, or if you're extremely confident that you won't get punished for it. A big part of this MU is just having the nerves to not throw out a move every time Fox sets foot in your threat bubble. You gotta have the self control to wait for him to act first, THEN pull out your ridiculous punish game and 0-death him.

DASH ATTACK IS NOT AN APPROACH. DASH ATTACK IS NOT AN APPROACH. DASH ATTACK IS NOT AN APPROACH.

Dash attack is a punish - it hits people who are trying to approach you, people rolling away, people throwing projectiles, and people who DI away from you during combos. Don't run at people and dash attack unless you're also reading an attack from them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Gonna post this in here too so I can spread the worddd, if you waveland with Bowser and walk for one step, he takes said step REALLY fast (try it yourself). It lets you squeeze out a bit more distance and it's not a laggy commitment like his walk usually is, it's like a pseudo lunge that inches him forward a bit thanks to momentum carryover. Just a cute little trick.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'd also like to point out that we now have access to one of the best approaches in the game -- wavedash/waveland at the enemy and wait in shield. With the huge waveland and reduced jumpsquat, not only does the 'approach' part of the approach go much farther, but we can jump out of shield much more quickly when we're trying to punish the opponent's panic-response.

 

[Ace55]

Only real loss seems to be that fortress hogging is even harder now.

I don't agree, seems much easier to do reliably now.

 

[Electric Tuba]

DASH ATTACK IS NOT AN APPROACH. DASH ATTACK IS NOT AN APPROACH. DASH ATTACK IS NOT AN APPROACH.

Got it. Will approach with dash attack.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Dash attack is the only approach.

Trolling aside.

Another beast thing we get out of our perfect waveland-or even our wavedash-is a standing pivot grab as a bit of a fake-out/mix-up. It's great with the perfect waveland's distance. Just waveland with your back to the opponent and turn around lightly into a grab. Neat stuff.

Of course, there are tons of new options that open up from this movement. I'm having a hayday. :D

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm having major trouble trying to perfect waveland on platforms that are moving vertically. Is there a bug that prevents this, or do I just suck?

It also seems dramatically easier at some platform heights at others, and at different directions. For example, try perfect wavelanding on the side platforms of Yoshi's, while running from the inside, jumping from the stage's high point (ie. before the downslope) and aiming outwards. Then try doing the same, while jumping from the bottom of the slope, and going inwards.

The latter I can do almost 100% of the time. The former seems near impossible. The physics of this baffle me.

 

[PootisKonga]

I'm doing better with the Koopa King now, but the same players continue to demolish me. Though that's a skill gap more than anything else.
Got rekt by a Jigglypuff with a mean rest game and a Lucario that seemed to punish just at the right time to keep me from even moving.

I also tend to either jump the gun or hesitate on my BB edgehogs/edgeguards. I usually edgehog early and that sometimes works, but I get pushed off by the better players. Too late trying for an edgeguard and they grab ledge first and I SD. Trying to work on that.

 

[Goodin]

Are there any active Bowser players who are considered very good? I know Kirk had a run with Big House but that build is outdated.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Are there any active Bowser players who are considered very good? I know Kirk had a run with Big House but that build is outdated.

I'm about to become active again. I'm a beast. I'm gonna use the tournament this weekend to knock the rust off and then I'm going to go take over the world.

 

[Goodin]

I'm about to become active again. I'm a beast. I'm gonna use the tournament this weekend to knock the rust off and then I'm going to go take over the world.

Lets see it!

 

[eric bush]

Favorite Bowser smash move?

 

[PootisKonga]

Down Smash for utility, Forward Smash for disrespect and lulz

 

[Hobobloke]

What? But it's not...and you don't just die for trying it. It's slightly slower but I got the hang of it in like 5 minutes. o.o Just keep working on it.

Yeah, not long after posting I went back into the lab with it and got it down, was just stuck in my 3.02 method of doing it.