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Bowser general discussion thread.

Mr. Bones

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So, somewhat recently I've picked up Bowser as my secondary. I like his playstyle alot, he's deceptively quick, and can be pretty polarizing to those unfamiliar with how he's played. That said, I know he has a quite a few edgeguarding options. (D-tilt, Fortress Hogging, and Bowser Bomb on stage to ledge, etc) I'd like to know which of the last two I mentioned is best, to help my Bowser out. I don't want to be limited to down tilt and fortress hogging.
No one option is generally better than the other. It depends on the MU.

Bowser Bomb is great for catching low recoveries that fail to sweet spot like Marth/Roy/Mario etc..

Fortress Hog is faster to grab the ledge obviously and can force your opponent to land on stage if they don't fall to their death altogether.

Also I can't stress DSmash facing away from the ledge enough. Those phantom disjoints...so strong.

Don't forget you can fly out and Fair a lot of characters for the kill and make it back. Nair and Bair can be used offstage too but require a lot more caution.
 
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No one option is generally better than the other. It depends on the MU.

Bowser Bomb is great for catching low recoveries that fail to sweet spot like Marth/Roy/Mario etc..

Fortress Hog is faster to grab the ledge obviously and can force your opponent to land on stage if they don't fall to their death altogether.

Also I can't stress DSmash facing away from the ledge enough. Those phantom disjoints...so strong.

Don't forget you can fly out and Fair a lot of characters for the kill and make it back. Nair and Bair can be used offstage too but require a lot more caution.
Thanks for the tips! I'll be sure to use down smash for sure! I'm a bit unsure about going offstage just yet. Need to familiarize myself with that a little more, but that's what friendlies are for. Ha.
 

Mr. Bones

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Brandon StatenTo speak on tourneys not seeded well without actually attending is a bit much, at tox, atlas, ploo, searing sorrow, and master raven in one pool. And tank didn't even make it out of pools because hbox pool was so stacked in spite of being a Florida a tier equivalent. Only reason I won vs nick riddle is because sai's link is better and bones's bowser is better IMO.

Victor Alejandro GarridoA Bowser ditto between James and Nick Riddle would be hype.

James GauldingLol. I would gladly challenge Riddle to a $500 mm. (Bowser dittos ;o; and if I had that kind of money )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y07k54pnM

Nick obviously needs to get on my level.

<3
 
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Searing_Sorrow

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Brandon StatenTo speak on tourneys not seeded well without actually attending is a bit much, at tox, atlas, ploo, searing sorrow, and master raven in one pool. And tank didn't even make it out of pools because hbox pool was so stacked in spite of being a Florida a tier equivalent. Only reason I won vs nick riddle is because sai's link is better and bones's bowser is better IMO.

Victor Alejandro GarridoA Bowser ditto between James and Nick Riddle would be hype.

James GauldingLol. I would gladly challenge Riddle to a $500 mm. (Bowser dittos ;o; and if I had that kind of money )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y07k54pnM

Nick obviously needs to get on my level.

<3
I put at the matchup!!!! Stop starting stuff lol. And thanks for posting my name, I tend to do that a lot on smash boards where anyone with an account can see.
 
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Mr. Bones

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I put at the matchup!!!! Stop starting stuff
<3 But bby ilu.

No, but in all seriousness. I don't mean disrespect or anything by it. I really would love the opportunity to play that ditto though. it would definitely be hype.
 

Searing_Sorrow

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<3 But bby ilu.

No, but in all seriousness. I don't mean disrespect or anything by it. I really would love the opportunity to play that ditto though. it would definitely be hype.
I wouldn't doubt you could win a bowser ditto, but I am not putting someone's character on blast after a best of 3 in a matchup that was confusing on first play. Bowser vs diddy is one I feel I have to make a conscious effort to lose even on small stages so I don't know what he can do with him since we played one match on ghz and I didn't want to see any tricks he may have had in a best of 3 after I lost one. And he still has title of best link till someone consistently outplays him. Though I like idea of Jamie hr vs bones as well lol.
 

Mr. Bones

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Don't worry, I'll make you rethink everything you know about Diddy again. <3 I have just the thing.

Gotta start showing everyone how to handle these harder Bowser MUs. Hope to see you at the next tourney, bby.

(Nice Avatar btw.)
 
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NickRiddle

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Or, I could quit PM after Big House because Smash 4 is more fun.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
 

Mr. Bones

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I won't quit PM. But I'd definitely still play you in Sm4sh. ;3
 

Frost | Odds

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Brandon StatenTo speak on tourneys not seeded well without actually attending is a bit much, at tox, atlas, ploo, searing sorrow, and master raven in one pool. And tank didn't even make it out of pools because hbox pool was so stacked in spite of being a Florida a tier equivalent. Only reason I won vs nick riddle is because sai's link is better and bones's bowser is better IMO.

Victor Alejandro GarridoA Bowser ditto between James and Nick Riddle would be hype.

James GauldingLol. I would gladly challenge Riddle to a $500 mm. (Bowser dittos ;o; and if I had that kind of money )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Y07k54pnM

Nick obviously needs to get on my level.

<3
wait what is going on in here?
 

Abeebo

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Fair warning to all those hype for 3.5 Bowser, the changes to him are not radical. I shouldn't go into detail, but I couldn't really see any really new stuff from him when I gave him a whirl.
I am totally ok with this as long as he's received SOME improvements.
 

Frost | Odds

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major improvements. Recoveries being nerfed (and the top tiers in general being nerfed) is a start, but it's seriously nowhere near good enough. =/
 

Searing_Sorrow

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Ditto please don't quit NickRiddle, that was taken out of context, leaving out in m.u. definitely meant no disrespect, you said yourself there are no diddys in Florida, and Xanadu tapes just make my gimmicky playstyle work better cause I use throw d.I traps and up b is flying mario down smash(nerf please). side b is guaranteed stupid vs certain weights. and (bowser vs diddy) is the second coming of melee sheik imo. May end 25-75 after Xanadu punish game improves, or I magically inherit 6 years of banana brawl experience. Just play both games so we get double salt cam, your hilarious lol

As a side note, are you going to smash Carolina this weekend?
 
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Mr. Bones

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Ditto please don't quit NickRiddle, that was taken out of context, leaving out in m.u. definitely meant no disrespect, you said yourself there are no diddys in Florida, and Xanadu tapes just make my gimmicky playstyle work better cause I use throw d.I traps and up b is flying mario down smash(nerf please). side b is guaranteed stupid vs certain weights. and (bowser vs diddy) is the second coming of melee sheik imo. May end 25-75 after Xanadu punish game improves, or I magically inherit 6 years of banana brawl experience. Just play both games so we get double salt cam, your hilarious lol

As a side note, are you going to smash Carolina this weekend?
I doubt he's quitting because of a call-out from a Bowser he doesn't know using quotes from a Diddy he played once. Pretty sure it's so he can test Sm4sh waters. lol
 

TTTTTsd

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I think the ledge grab nerf is gonna hurt Bowser a lot as well. What the ****. It was bad enough he relied on gimmicky Super Armor that is now barely noticable, but he can't even keep his ledge more than 5 times now with invul, and if my knowledge is correct the ledge is IMPORTANT. This character cannot exist like this, he has no good neutral and terrible mobility in a game that basically requires one or the other, or decent amounts of both. He can have armor all he wants but it's not getting him anywhere anytime soon with the way this is going.

I want to pocket this character, I still do, but until he gains some form of not clunky, smooth mobility and just a better neutral and general polish to his design, I can't. I'm not gonna ask for Smash 4 Bowser but I am of the firm belief that the philosophy behind Smash 4 Bowser was very correct. Fix the crippling mobility flaws and give him some sort of good neutral and options, he doesn't NEED armor to be successful at that point.
 

Abeebo

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I think the ledge grab nerf is gonna hurt Bowser a lot as well
I thought about this too, but i'm 99.9% sure it will affect his ledge game a very small amount, if at that. Ledge wavedashing (or whatever its called) is incredibly fast and you can auto-snap Fortress Hog right after if you do it right. It's too fast and safe for people to react to consistently. A limit of 5 is still plenty. If anything, i'd argue that this could even help Bowser in a few match ups.
 
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Frost | Odds

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It might help him a tiny bit against Ivy (who can otherwise ledgehop fair/razorleaf for 8 minutes with total impunity) and maybe a few others like Sheik and Mewtwo. Bowser doesn't actually get stuck on ledge as badly as a few characters, I'd argue that this change is good for us if anything.
 

TTTTTsd

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I guess tons of things changed since I was gone from P:M....welp, haha, das what I get. I still argue that this character needs more though!
 

Jacob29

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To be honest, I don't think Bowser is that bad of a pocket anyway.

He still needs work, but at least as a pocket character you can pick and choose when to pull him out which makes him viable at least.
 

Abeebo

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If you're just gonna pocket Bowser, then stick with the smallest of stages and learn to Fortress Hog from every and all corners of the stage, including platforms. Battlefield is probably the most Fortress Hog friendly out of all the stages.

Looking at the frame data again. What are your guys's opinion on Bowser's Crouch/Crawl armor? I remember in 2.5 or 2.6, Bowser had incredible crouch armor. Was that the result of having his [current] Crouch armor (53.3) the same value as his Crawl armor (80), or was there another factor involved? For those familiar with previous armors: do you think Bowser needs to gain that back, or do you think it was a little much? How do you like to use Crouch/Crawl armor?
 
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Frost | Odds

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I'd go a bit further and recommend Fortress Hog practice with a ton of Ice Climbers on Green Hill Zone. Leffen posted a long time ago that he practiced L-Cancelling in a similar fashion, and I found it a useful practice tool when I tried it out. Practice conditions should always be harder than tournament conditions, if you can manage it.
 

Candypants

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It might help him a tiny bit against Ivy (who can otherwise ledgehop fair/razorleaf for 8 minutes with total impunity)
Our nair beats their fair. Our running attack beats their razor leaf.

Your welcome.
 

Frost | Odds

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Congratulations. You've successfully pointed out what to do if you get a hard read on Ivy's exact positioning on the ledge, and the exact attack that's coming out, and its exact timing. Truly, the matchup is even at worst.
 

Candypants

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Congratulations. You've successfully pointed out what to do if you get a hard read on Ivy's exact positioning on the ledge, and the exact attack that's coming out, and its exact timing. Truly, the matchup is even at worst.
Odds confirmed for not being able to read an ivysaur that legehops for 8 minutes and does 2 moves.
 

Frost | Odds

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You're missing the point.

You have 50/50 to read Ivy on the ledge if he sticks to only those two moves.

If you guess right, you add a couple % to the Ivy.
If you guess wrong, you're dead.

Whatever, no point explaining this stuff. I'm tired of getting trolled.
 
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Abeebo

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I'd go a bit further and recommend Fortress Hog practice with a ton of Ice Climbers on Green Hill Zone. Leffen posted a long time ago that he practiced L-Cancelling in a similar fashion, and I found it a useful practice tool when I tried it out. Practice conditions should always be harder than tournament conditions, if you can manage it.
Not sure I quite follow. You're suggesting that we go to GHZ (or whatever stage) with 2-3 CPU Ice Climbers so that we may practice Fortress Hogging hitlag timing in addition to non-hitlag timing? Neat idea, but I don't think that's really necessary for Fortress Hogging practice. Don't let me stop you though.
 

Frost | Odds

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99% of my missed fortresshogs are because of hitlag. It messes with your momentum too, dunno. That particular practice seems to help.
 

cmart

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If you're just gonna pocket Bowser, then stick with the smallest of stages and learn to Fortress Hog from every and all corners of the stage, including platforms. Battlefield is probably the most Fortress Hog friendly out of all the stages.

Looking at the frame data again. What are your guys's opinion on Bowser's Crouch/Crawl armor? I remember in 2.5 or 2.6, Bowser had incredible crouch armor. Was that the result of having his [current] Crouch armor (53.3) the same value as his Crawl armor (80), or was there another factor involved? For those familiar with previous armors: do you think Bowser needs to gain that back, or do you think it was a little much? How do you like to use Crouch/Crawl armor?
FYI the kb threshold was a mistake that didn't factor crouch canceling. it allowed you to armor much more powerful hits than other light armor, and thus broke our armor standardization.
 

Phan7om

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How can Fire Breath be used best in the Bowser ditto?
 

Frost | Odds

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In principle, you probably shouldn't be using it as much as usual. The Klaw is a vastly more attractive option in the ditto than in most other MUs for 3 reasons:

1. Bowser is huge
2. Bowser sucks at jumping
3. Bowser has a garbage spotdodge

These combine to make it difficult to dodge an incoming Klaw even if you're pretty sure it's coming. If you spotdodge incorrectly, you're going to eat a *hard* punish of some kind; including possibly a delayed Klaw. The correct answer to a read Klaw is to throw a hitbox out - with the opponent's positioning determining whether that should be a jab, ftilt, utilt, upb, or fair.

So, when you're in position to flame cancel, you're usually also in position to Klaw - so an intelligent opponent will likely be coming your way (EDIT: with a hitbox. I accidentally a whole phrase) shortly. Flame cancel loses to pretty much everything that Klaw loses to at the same range because the flame doesn't come out til you hit the floor. Therefore, you should be flame cancelling only when your opponent isn't likely to be at range to punish you at the time you land.

An exception to this is if you're against a cocky Bowser who is sure that he can read all your Klaws, and begins simply spotdodging them instead of more safely throwing out hitboxes. Flames punish the hell out of that.

Basically, flame cancelling is typically a very attractive option because it beats shielding AND spotdodging, but it's not that good in the ditto because shielding and spotdodging are both really bad in the MU. Use it as a mixup occasionally, especially at range, but be very cautious of overuse.
 
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Floati

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Hey Bowser mains! I don't play him myself, so I'd like your opinion on something: Do you think Bowser should be reverted to his "Nintendo-smash size?" I get what the PMBR was going for (and it's cool being a huge monster ;) ), but personally it feels like a nerf- especially considering camping is a huge weakness of Bowser to begin with. Tech-chase range seems like the only benefit to the larger size.
 

Frost | Odds

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@ Floati Floati : yes, absolutely. Bowser mains seem pretty split on the issue, but IMO his size is one of the biggest contributors to his current polarized-ness.

IMO, he could stand to be reduced to Melee size.
 
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PootisKonga

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I'm having trouble Fortress Hogging, I keep getting SDs. Standard FHing is facing away from the ledge, then timing upB so that it ends just as you fall over the edge, correct?
 

Nevermind

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Nope, if you fall off the ledge during the last frame of Up-B Bowser won't grab it. Rather, what you want to do is fall off and immediately hold the stick toward the ledge. The timing is a bit tricky, but it's possible to very quickly transition from Up-Bing to ledge hogging with minimal slowdown before you drop. Here is a video that Odds made regarding a few of Bowser's character-specific tech options.
 
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