Bowser general discussion thread.

[Taytertot]

Marth? Ike? fox upsmash? Any sword character really. mario and luigi. I wanna say alot of characters can use smash attacks out of neutral pretty easily

fox can because usmash is too good so youre right about that. i disagree with marth being able to, fsmash is quite a risk in neutral and his other smash attacks are generally not useful in comparison to dtilt and utilt and the those smash attacks arent that safe. Ike's smash attacks are all super committal, he gets punished really hard if he throws a smash attack out in neutral so idk why youd think he can. mario's smash attacks arent used in neutral generally, his usmash is an anti-air, his fsmash is a punish/combo finisher and dsmash is great with CC so im not sure what youre referring to with mario. You are right about luigi though, hes a bit of a mold breaker, but if he had any of bowser's smash attacks im sure the PMDT would make sure he couldnt safely use them out of a wavedash.

 

[Zigludo]

off the top of my head Sheik, Falco, MK, Tink, Snake (lol landmine), Roy, Link all use one or more of their smashes in neutral or in pressure situations. maybe D3's dsmash? idk I don't play that guy he sux


almost all other characters use Smash attacks at some point, though, either in combos, edgeguarding or tech chasing situations. just because a particular move is often a poor choice to throw out in neutral, doesn't necessarily make it a bad move or dead weight

 

[Taytertot]

off the top of my head Sheik, Falco, MK, Tink, Snake (lol landmine), Roy, Link all use one or more of their smashes in neutral or in pressure situations. maybe D3's dsmash? idk I don't play that guy he sux


almost all other characters use Smash attacks at some point, though, either in combos, edgeguarding or tech chasing situations. just because a particular move is often a poor choice to throw out in neutral, doesn't necessarily make it a bad move or dead weight

true and my point isnt that it should never be used in neutral but more that it shouldnt be a go to option nor should it be made good enough to use in that way (id say snake's dsmash is an exception because of how it works). and i think they are great moves to use when you have an advantage and your opponent is getting anxious and great combo finishers but due to them being generally kill options, being able to safely use them in neutral is unfair. pressure situations i wouldnt count as being in neutral because by pressuring someone you are putting them in a situation where their options are more limited and therefore at an inherent disadvantage.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

So y

true and my point isnt that it should never be used in neutral but more that it shouldnt be a go to option nor should it be made good enough to use in that way (id say snake's dsmash is an exception because of how it works). and i think they are great moves to use when you have an advantage and your opponent is getting anxious and great combo finishers but due to them being generally kill options, being able to safely use them in neutral is unfair. pressure situations i wouldnt count as being in neutral because by pressuring someone you are putting them in a situation where their options are more limited and therefore at an inherent disadvantage.

so you are saying that in dash dance Marth or Roy throwing out a fsmash is unsafe? Their reach is tremendous and where it's punishable of missed, a good Marth can zone out characters with dash dance and forward smash. And luigi can wave dash into any forward smash which makes it pretty good in neutral too especially a retreating smash attack. And mario can dash dance forward smash, cc down smash. And snakes down smash... Yuck. None of bowsers smashes are usable without proper reads, edge guards, and eating a hit first.

 

[Abeebo]

Bowser could really use a faster jab right about now.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I think Jab having less startup and a little disjoint would be cool.

 

[Taytertot]

So y

so you are saying that in dash dance Marth or Roy throwing out a fsmash is unsafe? Their reach is tremendous and where it's punishable of missed, a good Marth can zone out characters with dash dance and forward smash. And luigi can wave dash into any forward smash which makes it pretty good in neutral too especially a retreating smash attack. And mario can dash dance forward smash, cc down smash. And snakes down smash... Yuck. None of bowsers smashes are usable without proper reads, edge guards, and eating a hit first.

if mario, marth or roy throws out a fsmash during a dash dance it can definitely be shielded and or avoided because anyone playing against those characters should be ready for the spacing of those characters, therefore making it unsafe. the reach that marth and roy have helps but it is punishable and shouldnt be throw out in neutral without a good reason like seeing a pattern in there opponents movements/choices or if theyre trying to make a really hard read, but both are a risk. if marth roy or mario is in an advantageous position then they might be able to while remaining safe but that isnt neutral if one person has the advantage. mario ccing is no longer in neutral when he throws out the dsmash because the dsmash is a punish for his opponent not being careful of mario's ccing ability, mario cant throw out a dsmash without the cc setup unless he wants to be punished (though i do see how that is similar to how bowser's smash attacks work now, but mario cant cc into dsmash past a certain percent).
With snake i think youre mistaking someone getting hit by his dsmash in neutral vs snake using his dsmash in neutral which would get punished since it takes a while to setup. youre right about luigi though and i dont exactly like that about him (nor do i like luigi as a whole).

your right about bowsers smash attacks and i see what youre saying, bowser's smash attacks arent great as is. My point about not enticing players to throw it out in neutral is not because i think bowser's smash attacks need to be nerfed, my point is that it teaches players to try and get away with throwing them out even though they are unsafe with the armor. All an opponent has to do is bait it out, wait and then punish bowser for trying to get a heavy read with the use of the armor. I think that his smash attacks need to be reworked a bit so that its not about being rewarded for just guessing, there should be more to it that allows bowser players to use it cleverly and i feel that the armor on charging gets players to just throw it out without feeling the need to plan how to use it. Maybe im wrong though.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

if mario, marth or roy throws out a fsmash during a dash dance it can definitely be shielded and or avoided because anyone playing against those characters should be ready for the spacing of those characters, therefore making it unsafe. the reach that marth and roy have helps but it is punishable and shouldnt be throw out in neutral without a good reason like seeing a pattern in there opponents movements/choices or if theyre trying to make a really hard read, but both are a risk. if marth roy or mario is in an advantageous position then they might be able to while remaining safe but that isnt neutral if one person has the advantage. mario ccing is no longer in neutral when he throws out the dsmash because the dsmash is a punish for his opponent not being careful of mario's ccing ability, mario cant throw out a dsmash without the cc setup unless he wants to be punished (though i do see how that is similar to how bowser's smash attacks work now, but mario cant cc into dsmash past a certain percent).
With snake i think youre mistaking someone getting hit by his dsmash in neutral vs snake using his dsmash in neutral which would get punished since it takes a while to setup. youre right about luigi though and i dont exactly like that about him (nor do i like luigi as a whole).

your right about bowsers smash attacks and i see what youre saying, bowser's smash attacks arent great as is. My point about not enticing players to throw it out in neutral is not because i think bowser's smash attacks need to be nerfed, my point is that it teaches players to try and get away with throwing them out even though they are unsafe with the armor. All an opponent has to do is bait it out, wait and then punish bowser for trying to get a heavy read with the use of the armor. I think that his smash attacks need to be reworked a bit so that its not about being rewarded for just guessing, there should be more to it that allows bowser players to use it cleverly and i feel that the armor on charging gets players to just throw it out without feeling the need to plan how to use it. Maybe im wrong though.

So what would make bowsers smash attacks more Isabel outside of a read or edge guard?

 

[Taytertot]

So what would make bowsers smash attacks more Isabel outside of a read or edge guard?

hahaha well thats where i wouldnt know what to change.

 

[shairn]

So I've been thinking about something I have a problem with as Bowser: Getting down to the ground. I was watching a match of mine and overall I know where my problems are, but there'S onehing I can't figure out is how to avoid the juggle. I feel like I'm missing some options to get down from the top/mid platforms for example of BF and YS, as can be seen here.

My first idea is to ledge cancel dair, which is something I do at times but doesn't feel sufficient. Having a second option to help cover my landing would help a lot more I feel, but I can't really think of anything. Nair really doesn't work at all after the first few times.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

So I've been thinking about something I have a problem with as Bowser: Getting down to the ground. I was watching a match of mine and overall I know where my problems are, but there'S onehing I can't figure out is how to avoid the juggle. I feel like I'm missing some options to get down from the top/mid platforms for example of BF and YS, as can be seen here.

My first idea is to ledge cancel dair, which is something I do at times but doesn't feel sufficient. Having a second option to help cover my landing would help a lot more I feel, but I can't really think of anything. Nair really doesn't work at all after the first few times.

That is kinda the problem, bowser doesnt really have tools to get down fast without suffering some kind of punishable lag. What i have been playing with more though is flames and moving away while flame breathing.

Honestly, CF is a much easier MU and i actually consider it even. he does have some very mean things against you like i previously stated above but it's much easier to handle compared to spacies.

You play against bad falcons who dont know what they can do to you (which is basically whatever they feel like doing)

 

[Filosafer]

So, you don't have to attack the opponent. Simple enough, but a key component of getting down when you're not being juggled. In that situation, wavelanding off the plats to ledge would be best as Bowser. When you wavelanded on the top plat, you waited a few seconds, then fell through to hit him with a nair. It's super obvious, avoidable, and punishable. In that situation, you could have just drifted away from him, without an aerial. Great offense is a good defense, but great defense is an even better defense.

In that set, you did well realizing that Zard's glair has the worst priority in the game. He was reliant on it, but you can jab him and kill him. But quit double jumping when you're on the top plat. You look like you're getting as much height as possible. Zard can just fly up and bair, and now you're without a jump. Also, DIing Zard's Uthrow: None. It throws at a weird angle, that basically causes you to go straight towards the corner, meaning no DI is usually best. In fact, since Bowser is so floaty, it may be better to DI a little down. Just hold forward. If you fortress on stage, you go to ledge. No ifs ands or buts. It's why you took a hard dair. Fortress has one hit on it, which is why you can actually hit them, but if you don't go to ledge, they can still punish you. I'm seeing a lot of aerials -> grounded move, even when there's no hit confirm. That worked from dair -> utilt a few times because he's bad or something, but on shield, no aerial is safe. If your aerial hits a shield, you instantly go defensive. Make sure to cross up behind the opponent to hopefully give you a few extra frames to defend. You did that a few times, which helped coming down. If you really dislike coming down so much - which is understandable against charizard - practice shield drop nairs. Overall your bowser needs work: some of your throws weren't the best option, terrible edgeguarding, punishes were subpar, other stuff I'm sure you recognize (nice ending).

To help with coming down from a juggle, which is a big issue against zard, but I didn't see much during that set:
Read up on SDI. I'm not going to be giving a big tutorial on SDI, but it's best use is when getting juggled. Whether it's Falco's pillars or MKs uairs, where you SDI in front, falcon's uairs, where you SDI behind, SDI is the single best way to escape. Our nair does help, but good jugglers won't let you out of hitstun. So, you SDI to allow yourself some more time to escape hitstun and get the nair out. Against zard, it's like Fox's uair, where you S/DI opposite the way he's moving.

I think I left a few trains of thought unfinished. reply with any questions.

 

[REInstalleD]

In general, I think getting to the ledge with down-b is one of the safest options. Yes, you'll still be at a disadvantageous position hanging from the ledge, but Bowser has a lot of good ledge options so getting up is usually easier than getting down.

From the top platform like in the video you posted, maybe try dropping through the top platform and baiting out a reaction with your double jump. If you baited out the Charizard's up-smash you could probably follow up with fast-fall nair or maybe catch him shielding with a KK. If he just went for the up-tilt or jab or didn't react, worst case scenario you reset to the top platform and try something else. If he's actively jumping up and trying to catch you on the top platform, you might be able to dash toward a lower platform if you can react in time (though against Charizard's multiple jumps and long attacks that might be difficult).

I've also been experimenting with down-angled aerial fire breath. Obviously it's not very good when your opponent is directly below you or can approach you from multiple aerial directions, and it's pretty punishable if they have proper patience and spacing, but I think it's a good option in specific situations or if they are jumping at you predictably.

 

[shairn]

Thanks for the input. I agree that I need to stop nairing down, I'll keep in mind your suggestions.

Fortresshog is something I haven't practiced enough lmao I still SD half the times I try it. I think I'll do that for now, and try to iron out my bad habits when escaping the juggle whenevr I get the chance to play a real person.

 

[SushiKiller]

So boozer things and stuff

 

[shairn]

In light of 3.6: Bowser can BB from the ground to the top platform of FoD and dsmash and the first hitbox comes out on frame 28.
This is counting frames from the start of the BB animation. 1 frame window to get the cancel though.

EDIT: Alternatively, you can get the cancel by doing a Full hop and DJ on frames 22-24, which is more lenient but slower.Dsmash hitbox starts on frame 34-35 I believe if this is done frame-perfect.

Bowser's DJ has really weird collisions and is worth exploring IMO.

 

[REInstalleD]

Yeah, the full hop DJ snap to the top platform and short hop DJ snap to the side platforms (when at full height) is actually pretty easy once you get the feel for it. But I've found JCing BB is a lot harder to time. Do you know what frame you need to JC?

Also, any other stages you've found the DJ snap useful on? FoD is the only stage where I can do it consistently, probably because you can use the apex of the short/full hops which makes the timing easier. But occasionally I'll do it on accident on other stages. I wonder how much the different platform types affect the timing window, if at all.

 

[shairn]

Yeah, the full hop DJ snap to the top platform and short hop DJ snap to the side platforms (when at full height) is actually pretty easy once you get the feel for it. But I've found JCing BB is a lot harder to time. Do you know what frame you need to JC?

Also, any other stages you've found the DJ snap useful on? FoD is the only stage where I can do it consistently, probably because you can use the apex of the short/full hops which makes the timing easier. But occasionally I'll do it on accident on other stages. I wonder how much the different platform types affect the timing window, if at all.

FoD is frame 14.

Interestingly, since they decreased BB height in 3.6, it now works on Battlefield. Just JC on frame 19.
I haven't found any other stages, though admittedly I only looked in the stage list we use here which is quite diminutive, at 6 stages.
I'm not in a position to check other stages at the moment unfortunately.

 

[shairn]

So I was investigating shield pressure options for Bowser and I started by looking at aerials that are the safest on shield. As it turns out, the safest is an L-canceled uair, and does about 21 shield damage (shields can tank 60 damag before breaking). If you follow it up with a frame perfect Jab, the opponent has a 2 frame window to shieldgrab you before the jab hits (including grab armor). Now, if you can get jab 1 to hit their shield, you can get jab 2 out 6 frames later (faster than any grab in the game). Jab 1 and jab 2 both have extra shield damage, so your total damage adds up to almost exactly 40 shield damage. At this point, if your opponent has been holding shield for about one second, they'll have just enough shield left for up B to break it.

Unfortunately Jab 2 is -13 on shield lmaaooo

You can swap out the jabs for dsmash but you have better chances of being shieldgrabbed after the uair, and dsmash is super negative on shield. However, the final shield damage is also better (about 46 shield damage) so it might break shields more often, considering shield depletion is 8.4 damage per second.

Important note: This is all assuming PM has the same mechanics for shields as Melee and shield health is also 60 and whatever. Also I'm bad and this is 100% theory so might not be worthwhile.

EDIT: If you can land uair-fsmash you'll break their shield

 

[Filosafer]

Shield health varies from each character in PM. That said, jab ftilt is usually better for shield pressure. The range and extra knockback usually helps push you away to avoid a follow-up. Or d-tilt, and KK is better if you're too close for the first two to be effective. That said, if you get jab 1 and they're still shielding, recognize if they're going to continue shield or attack. If the former, back up, don't even follow up from jab 1, and if they're going to attempt an OOS option, follow up. Obviously with the large cast, there's some discrepancies, but it's a good rule of thumb with Bowser and shields.

Also, you'll probably never uair a shield unless they're above you, in which case it's purpose is only to knock them off said plat. Just stick to cross up fair/nair with a mixup of KK.

 

[shairn]

I've looked pretty much everywhere I could and haven't found values for shield health in PM. It was constant across the cast in Melee and Brawl, so why did that change? Can I see that information anywhere?

Also my main goal was to find out if Bowser could reliably break shields (And theoretically, not really). Ftilt seems a bit slow though, jab 1 is -10 and ftilt comes out on frame 10, so at best your opponent has to sit in his shield for 20 frames, though I suppose they might if they expect jab 2 or something. Ftilt shield damage is amazing though holy ****, I hadn't noticed.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I've looked pretty much everywhere I could and haven't found values for shield health in PM. It was constant across the cast in Melee and Brawl, so why did that change? Can I see that information anywhere?

Also my main goal was to find out if Bowser could reliably break shields (And theoretically, not really). Ftilt seems a bit slow though, jab 1 is -10 and ftilt comes out on frame 10, so at best your opponent has to sit in his shield for 20 frames, though I suppose they might if they expect jab 2 or something. Ftilt shield damage is amazing though holy ****, I hadn't noticed.

uair l cancel, jab 1, dtilt (both hits) work or no?

 

[Shellfire]

His frame data is way too bad to break shields reliably, but he can at the very least force the opponent to stop shielding for a while if he lands a good shield hit.