Bowser general discussion thread.

[Filosafer]

No, it's like you go to the headquarters of the fast food restaurant, told them that their current business model is dookie, then whined when they ignore you. The PMDT has no reason to listen to Odds. Anything that they implement is independent of his big ol' doc. Your metaphor implies that they had to listen to him. You're implying that when he gave his suggested changes, that he did so expecting everyone to be followed through, which was NEVER the case.

3.5: KOs Mario @ 96
3.6b: KOs Mario @ 87, but off the side instead of top. VERY stage dependent.
My bad. Way overestimated it. It was scaled up pretty much the same amount Fsmash was scaled down, and I haven't been getting kills with that way later than 3.5

 

[Frost | Odds]

I was extraordinarily clear in my doc and my many, many discussions with DT members that taking away bowser's meaningfully strong tools would absolutely necessitate commensurate gains elsewhere. @ cmart is one of the most reasonable people I know, so I assume that the lack of buffs must have been some kind of political necessity.

Anyway, I'm sorry to have so offended you, filosofer. It's not my job to convince you that I'm qualified to help with this design stuff, though, so that's not a discussion I'll have here.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If they did revert to 3.5 though, you can bet the farm that I'd have a hell of a time at LTC3
demonstrating exactly why that particular bowser design is toxic and flawed.

Edit: jesus, eff this phone

Edit2: sorry for double post. Also, dsmash is pretty good right now - just not as good as it would need to be to compensate for bowser's losses.

 

[G13_Flux]

Well, let's not say that none of the buffs were implemented. He got a very useful koopa klaw, more movement, and quicker options suited to making punishes off of reads. Its certainly a step in the right direction IMO, but if it's any consolidation, just take zss and mk as an example. They got redisigned/nerfed from 3.02 to 3.5. The pmdt seemed to put them at a base level of design that was fundamentally what they wanted, and then improved from there. Both of them got pretty good buffs into 3.5, and are both easy contenders for high tier IMO. From here they can potentially buff bowser in the future (now that a more meaningful base design is set) in a more productive way that wont further polarize him, and cut into their design goals.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Agreed entirely, flux. My bad, I shouldn't have said that *none* of my proposed buffs were implemented - just very few.

I'm disappointed with the current version, particularly given that I predicted he'd be terrible without major love, but it should in no way be taken as a boycott of PM or 3.6 or anything.

I'd like to think of Bowser's changes in 3.6b as his 'trimming the fat' stage, which, as we know, most other characters (best analogy here is probably pit) got in 3.5. I've got total confidence he'll eventually be buffed back into usability, but that doesn't mean it's not at least a little bit heartbreaking that we got nerfed 10x as hard as Fox, despite already being one of the worst chars in PM.

I'm also pretty salty that I'm losing tournament sets to mediocre players with bowser now, after consistently 2 or 3 stocking everyone in my region in 3.5, so eh.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

There are probably a lot of things that one must take out of their gameplay if they still wanna use Bowser despite the many nerfs (particularly not staying your ground that much while relying on armors, Many hitboxes being lowered in size in general, weaker kill power), but other than Bowser feels pretty much the same, with the same if not better mobility, and a better Fire Breath, and people definitely can stlil win things with him, atleast that's how I see it.

I'm not saying that the nerfs aren't BS or that I'm not against them anymore, but it's not worth saying he's unusable or not viable in tournaments anymore (Atleast not much less than he already was).

 

[Zigludo]

There are probably a lot of things that one must take out of their gameplay if they still wanna use Bowser despite the many nerfs

but why would you want to?

he doesn't play the way he used to, he's basically an entirely different character now. and on top of that, he's horrendously bad. you're wasting your time if you use this character in this patch, at least the way I feel. I never felt that way about 3.5 or 3.0.

I know all that sounds super duper pessimistic but basically the PMDT just removed the possibility of a Bowser getting to top8 in any major until the next rebalance patch.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fwiw only top level tourney play should really be affected. Nobody was using dash attack or nair properly anyway, so I wouldn't be surprised if some players' results actually improved in 3.6b

 

[G13_Flux]

I think bowser is just behind in the design process. He didn't quite get the same level of changes that other characters got into 3.5, as he still had the same base design pretty much. He also, historically, has not had as much representation as other characters that now are in a comfortable place. This slows down their design process, and I think they just want to feel out how well this design meets their goals. Like odds even said, his match up spread is likely much smoother, even if it's still relatively weak. In the future, I guarantee we'll see buffs/tweaks coming bowsers way that enhance the quality of his punishes with improved risk/reward delegation

 

[Filosafer]

but why would you want to?

he doesn't play the way he used to, he's basically an entirely different character now.

So? Different =/= bad. 3.02 -> 3.5 changed character play styles almost across the board. Find a new character Zigludo.

 

[Zigludo]

Find a new character Zigludo.

lol you can bet your ass I will

 

[Jacob29]

sadness..
10sad

 

[G13_Flux]

I don't think anybody should quit bowser just because of this patch. Like, OK, maybe you don't use him once you get past quarter finals, or maybe even just use him for friendlies. But I think if you have any intentions of using bowser in the future if he's buffed, you should get comfortable with this design iteration. I got really comfortable in 3.5 with zss when everyone thought she was relatively bad, and it's paid off since now she has a more reliable neutral game, and better punishes out of neutral. I felt (though not everyone agreed) that her current design iteration sparks creative gameplay, so I stuck it out and now she's in a good spot.

Just my 2 cents, because at this point I don't think bowser has anywhere to go but up. Getting good with this iteration of him well be very rewarding to you in the future if (hopefully when) his game is further refined, even if you're not playing him in important matches in tournaments

 

[Frost | Odds]

Got 2nd in bracket last night because someone figured bowser out. Doing way better in today's tournament though with day 1 ganon. Again, day 1 ganon getting better results than my bowser with hundreds (probably well into the 1 or 2 thousands) of hours of practice.

SALTSALTSALTSALTSALT ayy lmao

Also I should clarify that I'm not dropping bowser permanently or anything. The moment he's viable again I'll be all over that like Zigludo's mom on stale cheetos :D

Edit2: yeah might still play him in friendlies to prep for the next patch

 

[Zigludo]

Again, day 1 ganon getting better results than my bowser with hundreds (probably well into the 1 or 2 thousands) of hours of practice.

get used to it lol. between you, me, poob, and tuba, there's a lot of Bowser > Ganon migration going on right now

EDIT: You take that back, Odds, I'll have you know my mom dines only on the freshest gourmet Cheetos

 

[Crett]

I'm playing Bowser in friendlies, but IS it friendlies? Everytime I pick him my friends pick characters like Ivysaur and ZSS

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I posted on the general discussion, demanding reasoning to bowsers changes from a developer, hopefully it works

 

[Electric Tuba]

I posted on the general discussion, demanding reasoning to bowsers changes from a developer, hopefully it works

No need to demand... reasonable discussion will always be more productive.

 

[Abeebo]

The biggest gains i'm seeing from 3.6 is Bowser's tech chasing capability. Once you get a knock down or your opponent is 'staggered', it's definitely easier to bully people offstage now that initial dash speed is better, nair still having good armor, and KK being more reliable. Considering his ledge game is still high tier, I think his new design is suppose to cater to get edgeguard kills more often. It's probably why fsmash is faster but not as strong. It's likely that you'll get your opponent offstage after landing one yet it still retains high damage/shield damage.
Emphasis on 'suppose'. Like many have already mentioned, the lack of compensation for the nerfs Bowser has received still makes his job really hard to do. The fact is that a lot of his moves are still not good in neutral and armor reduction (good idea though) leaves him more susceptible to losing in neutral. I can see the longer-ranged Flame Breath (hooray) being a partial compensation for the dash attack nerf, but the start up angle on Flames cannot be manipulated (that would be nice to have even if duration is reduced again) and is still slow to maneuver up and down.

I would've liked to see some good work done on his jab by making it frame 5 or even 4 instead of 6 (technically it is Frame 5, but the hitbox starts in such an awkward position for anything substantial to come from it) and having it link into jab2 or tilts more reliably. This would be a great way to use a launcher other than than dash attack. Jab1 still has great range and decent damage at 6%, but the relatively high rate of escape prevents it from being a solid move outside of jab resets, I think. Either that or start the IASA frames a tad bit sooner, perhaps with a slight reduction in damage and a different angle. Bowser would be able to do more things out of jab, allows for better CC'd jab chains, and there's still counter play as the opponent can SDI the jabs and prepare for Bowser's follow-up.

Anyone have an idea on how useful dtilt2 is? The only real use I see is pushing away a shielding opponent. Dtilt 1 doesn't link into dtilt2, and its edgeguarding application is tedious and redundant when we already have dtilt1 among many other better options.
If Bowser had dtilt2 removed along with reworked dtilt1 frames/properties to better work with an improved Jab1, he would actually have a good degree of shield pressure/close quarter combat options. Throw in the Flame Breath angling buffs and 3.6 Bowser could've been dope.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Dtilt2 is pretty great if you spaced dtilt1 properly on shield. The threat of it is also helpful to protect you in neutral if you whiffed with a dtilt1.

 

[Abeebo]

Yea dtilt combo is solid on shield. Dtilt2 threatening in neutral? I don't ever bank on dtilt2 saving me in neutral since I usually IASA cancel into a jab>tilt, but maybe there are situations that i'm not familiar with. I suppose it comes into play over a jab when you need those few pixels of range, but it's not much longer than jab and it's still shorter than dtilt1, so I don't think spacing is a factor. It seems like it would only land if the opponent has a careless moment, or it hits a shield and nothing happens. ::shrug::
I guess i'm just saying that it would've been nice to see Bowser with interesting CQC experimentation since PMDT decided to change him drastically anyway.

 

[cmart]

I can see the longer-ranged Flame Breath (hooray) being a partial compensation for the dash attack nerf, but the start up angle on Flames cannot be manipulated (that would be nice to have even if duration is reduced again) and is still slow to maneuver up and down..

This is false. The start up angle is whatever you input when the flames come out.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

Looks like its time to switch mains again

 

[Draco_The]

Everyone's talking about the new KK throw options, but the fire breath changes are also huge.

 

[shairn]

Huge fan of the changes and I haven't even tried them yet
Ayyy

Can't wait

I'm a bit disappointed flame cancel is gone, but the shorter startup seems to be great compensation. Allows it to have use in more situations instead of being great in few situations.

 

[ZGE]

Looks like its time to switch mains again

That's a meteor though, right? Or is it a true spike?

 

[shairn]

According to the changelist it's a spike.
How fast is the grounded version though? Charizard dthrow level?

 

[Draco_The]

According to the changelist it's a spike.
How fast is the grounded version though? Charizard dthrow level?

Hits in frame 23, can move after frame 44.

 

[Filosafer]

The grounded KKdthrow release point is pretty far in front of Bowser, but it looks like a lower angle from aerial. Is aerial version a spike, and grounded a meteor?

 

[Giygacoal]

So is the grounded side-B down throw considered physically a spike since the opponent is still thrown downward and gets noticeable thrust if he/she is thrown off the stage? The change list seemed to be worded to explain more of the typical application (aerial spike versus ground tech chase).

 

[ZGE]

The grounded KK dthrow is a meteor. The aerial version is a spike. Both have similar animations.

 

[quindelin]

So is the grounded side-B down throw considered physically a spike since the opponent is still thrown downward and gets noticeable thrust if he/she is thrown off the stage? The change list seemed to be worded to explain more of the typical application (aerial spike versus ground tech chase).

Grounded side-B down throw near the edge of the stage will throw them downwards but apparently it can be meteor cancelled. The main use I have for grounded side-B near the middle of the stage is obviously tech chasing, but a lot of times the opponent doesn't tech it (maybe because it is such a new move) which leads to an easy jab reset into another side b/grab. If you do the jab reset to re-side-B down throw it will move them forward, so if you just need to move towards the ledge a little bit more to throw them downwards that's a good way to do it.

 

[Taytertot]

against sheik bowser can KK dthrow and dash back to avoid getup attack and punish. i havent tried out the move much but i did notice that.

speaking of MU specifics im surprised to see no MU thread discussion in the PM bowserboards. Maybe i missed it.

 

[Filosafer]

KKdthrow, jab reset, KKbthrow, edgeguard. Only way to do it. That being said, it doesn't add much to Bowser, and he's still near the bottom like 3.6b. The changes only amplified an already amazing offstage game, without fixing neutral a ton. The dsmash is great though. KKdthrow -> dsmash isn't as good as it'd seem, as even getup attacks break light armour. So charging through and punishing is a no go. Neutral still bad, punish still bad, but if you can get them off stage, you have even less reasons to allow them back.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

KKdthrow, jab reset, KKbthrow, edgeguard. Only way to do it. That being said, it doesn't add much to Bowser, and he's still near the bottom like 3.6b. The changes only amplified an already amazing offstage game, without fixing neutral a ton. The dsmash is great though. KKdthrow -> dsmash isn't as good as it'd seem, as even getup attacks break light armour. So charging through and punishing is a no go. Neutral still bad, punish still bad, but if you can get them off stage, you have even less reasons to allow them back.

Jab reset doesnt work, CPUs have perfect reaction. Go to training, set your cpu to level 9 and have it "jump" and see how many jab resets you get before the cpu jumps right out of your jab.

EDIT, the point of the cpu is that if a cpu can do it, then a human with good reactions and knowledge can do it.

 

[Filosafer]

Yeah, it's not a true combo. That's obvious since they can just tech instead of a frame perfect jump.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Yeah, it's not a true combo. That's obvious since they can just tech instead of a frame perfect jump.

I may have misunderstood because that sounded like sarcasm, So what exactly do you mean? Like are you saying that people will opt for the tech of jumping out of a jab reset?

 

[Matthew]

At very low percents, bowser can kk forward throw to kk regrab and down throw right above the ground. This way the opponent is stuck in the spike hitstun and if you are fast enough, you can get another free kk forward throw to aerial kk down throw spike offstage. At high percents, an aerial kk down throw right before you hit the ground will spikebounce the opponent, and sometimes this can lead to a finisher.

 

[Filosafer]

I may have misunderstood because that sounded like sarcasm, So what exactly do you mean? Like are you saying that people will opt for the tech of jumping out of a jab reset?

KKThrow is like Zard/Fox/Falco Dthrow, where the opponent can tech when they hit the ground.

At very low percents, bowser can kk forward throw to kk regrab and down throw right above the ground. This way the opponent is stuck in the spike hitstun and if you are fast enough, you can get another free kk forward throw to aerial kk down throw spike offstage. At high percents, an aerial kk down throw right before you hit the ground will spikebounce the opponent, and sometimes this can lead to a finisher.

If they're at a percent where KKdthrow spike will lead to a finisher, KKbthrow will kill just as easily. Further, KK-> KK is only guaranteed on about 10 members of the cast, at certain percents. It can happen on other characters with bad DI, which you can't depend on. KK -> KKdthrow can be teched away to prevent follow ups, and with rolls normalized, you can't even follow up with dash attack. Maybe fire breath. KKdthrow is only useful against noobs/big characters/offstage.

 

[MWEX]

KKDthrow is the thing that is making bowser a threat for edge guarding