Bowser general discussion thread.

[Zigludo]

Flame breath clanks with Cypher, unfortunately.

 

[Daxter]

Hey there, team! I just joined PM a few weeks ago, and until now, I've practiced against LV9 CPU opponents. Today I went to the ladder and played online for the first time against a Lucario player. Friendly guy! He praised my Bowser (and Yoshi) so I think I'ma stick with him. Hail the Koopa King!

PM suits my gameplay style much better than Smash 4, so I hope to learn some techs fast ^^

 

[Master WGS]

Beat Ally today, and he said I threw him off because no other Bowsers ever dash attack his Nairs.

I assume this means he's just never played a Bowser because that's definitely day one stuff guys.

 

[Filosafer]

I play a snake tons. If they recover low, dair. Snake's sweetspot sucks, so Snakes should almost always be going high. Also, if you hit them from Cypher, their next Cypher is decreased time. Next little thing to keep in mind. Your only other options is to dsmash, hoping they barely miss the sweetspot, or RAR fair, and stagespike. But he can tech that.

 

[Zigludo]

Can't you just downB through his cypher?

 

[Osmosis124]

Last time I tried that I clanked with it, and died.

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

Beat Ally today, and he said I threw him off because no other Bowsers ever dash attack his Nairs.

I assume this means he's just never played a Bowser because that's definitely day one stuff guys.

I agree! I think the true Bowser metagame isn't spotlighted yet. There's a lot of unique tech and mechanics ripe for abuse, and a lot of Bowser players at weeklies (calm animal, american bowser etc), while good, seem to lose their cool during matches or don't make full use of their stronger options.

I use the word "Contend" a lot when referring to how you can win trades with Bowser nairs and dash attacks. There's also the strength in platform cancel aerial Up+B's or Dairs that allow you to stack % and continue combos.

Bowser is good. I considering him high mid tier, to be honest.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Bowser is good. I considering him high mid tier, to be honest.

Also Forward Smash is actually pretty nice.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I find it hard to call bowser anything close to highish tier when he has so many really, really difficult matchups.

The problem with being able to go through people's attacks is that they have to actually throw them out... so what if they don't? See falcons dash dancing until they get the grab/kill

(also, names american bowser and clam aminal and not me ;_; )

 

[Mr. Bones]

I find it hard to call bowser anything close to highish tier when he has so many really, really difficult matchups.

The problem with being able to go through people's attacks is that they have to actually throw them out... so what if they don't? See falcons dash dancing until they get the grab/kill

(also, names american bowser and clam aminal and not me ;_; )

If you rush his Dash Dancing space you can force a reaction or simply grab/jab/tilt him.

 

[Electric Tuba]

If they're committed to dash dancing until they get something, why wouldn't they just run farther away? Or just grab us, now that we're in range? Maybe jab will hit and be fast enough, or we might get 0-deathed.

It's not impossible, for sure, but neutral is a very weak part of bowser's game in a lot of situations.

 

[Mr. Bones]

If they're committed to Dash Dancing let them run around like an idiot. I'll be ready to punish on reaction as usual. Bowser is the most dangerous when we're patient. Learn the spacing for your own DD and your backward Wavedash and just be ready. Also you can instant Dash Attack through most options if they decide to commit.

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

Also Forward Smash is actually pretty nice.

I have trouble using it efficiently, but I do use it well situationally (tech reads, shield break, the pullback etc). It's usually a mix up or contending option. You can get punished hard if you're not careful, but it can also secure a stock.

 

[OnFullTilt]

Forward smash is bad. It's good for 1) punishing someone whose shield is broken (which will almost never happen vs good opponents) and 2) Edgeguarding extremely specific recoveries- really just Ness/Lucas upB and Charizard glide attack. Otherwise Down B serves the same purpose but (besides killing a little later) is better in every other way. It can even punish platform techs and other things that FSmash simply can't. Even for the Ness/Lucas up B edgeguard downB is usually better than FSmash, when you're not edgeguarding it some other way entirely.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Forward smash is bad. It's good for 1) punishing someone whose shield is broken (which will almost never happen vs good opponents) and 2) Edgeguarding extremely specific recoveries- really just Ness/Lucas upB and Charizard glide attack. Otherwise Down B serves the same purpose but (besides killing a little later) is better in every other way. It can even punish platform techs and other things that FSmash simply can't. Even for the Ness/Lucas up B edgeguard downB is usually better than FSmash, when you're not edgeguarding it some other way entirely.

I agree, but have to make the slight qualification that down-b is much easier to kill yourself with in edgeguarding. As seen in me killing myself constantly with down-b in edgeguarding.

...use discretion.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Forward smash is bad. It's good for....

It's not bad as much as it is harder to master. It's also good for micro-spacing in certain situations for a quick kill. It's the old saying, "Don't use it more, use it better"

It's guaranteed on some characters/percentages as a follow-up to the Up-Smash quake box. And it's beautiful to look at/execute.

 

[SushiKiller]

Why does odds think f smash is so bad

 

[Filosafer]

It's only usable on a handful of characters, and one specific instance each. Also, Odds can't into hard reads, or having fun.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Because forward smash sucks. In a couple very specific situations, it can edgeguard somebody. However, even then there are better options that are much less risky.

You're never going to hit a good player with forward smash on stage while they have control of their character. They'll just roll/shield/spotdodge/run up and grab you since there's so much startup.

 

[Osmosis124]

The only half decent thing is that you can scare people with it if you for it a couple times making them think it's a good move.

 

[meebius]

The only half decent thing is that you can scare people with it if you for it a couple times making them think it's a good move.

or you hit it, pause, and save the picture to the wii

 

[Osmosis124]

Zig How do I edge guard snake? I hear Down B works.

 

[Filosafer]

DownB is good, but I usually Dair or Bair as usual since Snake can't sweetspot.

 

[Zigludo]

Ayyy. Pretty sure Osmosis was making fun of me =D my timing was off because I wasn't accounting for the HUGE amount of hitlag as a result of clanking with Cypher!! Had I timed it earlier I would have won that round.

A bit of experimentation since then, however has revealed to me that dropzone nair will clank with the Cypher and then hit Snake with a nice gimp while still giving you time to recover. I'll have to practice that now

 

[Eternalis]

in bowser dittos, if the other bowser bombs on top of you and you shield it, you have enough time to throw out a fsmash before the bomb animation ends. Thats one thing fsmash is good for!

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Just got done reading the patch notes.

The ****, PMBR?

 

[meebius]

Just got done reading the patch notes.

The ****, PMBR?

lol, looks like they listened to most of Odds' requests

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Bowser got nerfs bloody everywhere as if he were hella broken yet I'm pretty sure he has very rarely topped recently, if at all. It's really pretty dumb.

 

[Shadic]

I don't think you understand the changes very well.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I playtested them already:

Ftilt hits like a wet noodle even on the sweetspot
Utilt's back hit has pretty much no use now
Side B having no armor removes one of Bowser's effective options against aggresive approaches
Down Smash no longer sends up, now it sends at an angle to the sides, killing it's effectiveness as a combo started on read techs
Nair's armor starting 2 frames later really hurts Bowser when he's getting combo'd, as you could usually throw it out just right before a hit connected (Now he has it much tougher against chars like CF or the spacies)

+Other nerfs that aren't really that impactful for the character, but I question the need for them, such as the new fair, smashes needing to charge to get (Medium/Heavy?) armor, amongst others. I still cannot genuinely believe that "X got changed to match Melee" is something people think is a good idea, considering how horrible Melee Bowser is.

I'll give you something though: Bowser's Neutral B is even sweeter now due to the increased distance, decreased IASA/startup lag on some moves helps and his movement upgrades on the ground are very welcome. But I do not understand how you could justify so many nerfs on the character, really; It seems more a case of people that don't use Bowser making changes on Bowser just for the heck of it.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Dash Attack having light armor removing one of his decent "approach" options (Or atleast, one of his options against agressive approaches)

 

[Magik0722]

I don't think you understand the changes very well.

Explain it better then? I just read the patch notes and I'm seeing major nerfs.

 

[Jacob29]

So far I think I'm glad about all the changes..

but I am worried for our fast faller mu's as the up-tilts chains seem to have been removed.

 

[gregWHO]

From playing Bowser and all his changes in 3.6 beta, this is where I think they're going with this. I don't necessarily agree with all the changes and I'm playing devil's advocate, but this is what I think the direction of the character is:

1) A very intentional shift in playstyle. Overall, the playstyle direction is to be more mobile and defensive while giving him more tools to react more and read less. His whole kit now allows him to be mobile (faster walk, initial dash, etc.) while making many of his matchups less polarizing. His faster moves will help against his Falcon/Ganon matchups. His mobility will help with spammers. Nearly everything starts a couple frames sooner. Being a slightly smaller hurtbox overall helps too, even in small amounts.

2) (Arguably) armor is bad mechanic and its implementation in Bowser was overly complicated. Bowser had x amount of moves with different levels of armor. Aerial side B with no armor, but grounded one with armor? A CC and Dtilt armor that almost begged to be spammed against? A heavy armored aerial? Aerial trades in general are not supposed to be free. Being directly above another character is generally a bad position and the heavy armor on Nair violated this. You're supposed to consider whether to trade or reset to neutral, not just plow through with Nair at lower percents. I guess it's a transition to more thoughtful defensive gameplay.

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

Yea, honestly wasn't a fan of the polarizing gameplay.

Kill enemy in 4 hits or get grabbed once and take 90%. noplzidunwan

After playing him for a while I like most of the changes more than don't. Glad the flame actually has some decent reach and I don't have to overdedicate. Also REALLY liking the new Koopa Klaw speed and hit boxes, it's a godsend.

 

[PootisKonga]

Bowser feels amazing IMO, all the changes made sense to me sans the armor variation through charged levels of smashes

He can actually be good now without being broken in both good (DA>Utilt ad infinitum>kill/edgeguard against FFers) or bad (could be combo'd by half-okay players) in some regards

 

[Mr. Bones]

I really just don't like the new Dash Attack. Everything else is gravy though. Overall feels smooth and fast like I can actually approach if I wanted to approach.

 

[Zigludo]

Kill enemy in 4 hits or get grabbed once and take 90%. noplzidunwan

we still take 90% off of one grab, though. that hasn't changed much

 

[Jacob29]

Yea, honestly wasn't a fan of the polarizing gameplay.

Kill enemy in 4 hits or get grabbed once and take 90%. noplzidunwan

After playing him for a while I like most of the changes more than don't. Glad the flame actually has some decent reach and I don't have to overdedicate. Also REALLY liking the new Koopa Klaw speed and hit boxes, it's a godsend.

Except in certain mu's (so far) it's appearing that we can't kill enemies in 4 hits, but STILL get combod for 90%.

 

[REInstalleD]

Bowser's changes are great. They reduced his armor which was a mechanic he was forced to abuse and which could be complicated and frustrating for players to play against. They increased his speed and decreased his side so that he no longer needs to rely on the armor he doesn't have. This means his matchups will be (as others have pointed out) less polarized and more rewarding for both sides.

Bowser's changes are scary. This is a slippery slope that could lead to the homogenization of the whole cast. Who knows, in five years we may be playing with forty-one different Fox costumes. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but taking away a character's unique tools and giving them more standard stats (like increased speed and decreased size for a big, heavy character) just makes them less original. If all the cast were to see these changes the game could, in the future, be reduced to a handful of character archetypes with identical stats but idiosyncratic movesets. So while the changes seem to improve the current metagame, they show a potentially harmful trend.

Thoughts? Is this actually a concern or should we just be happy Bowser will be undoubtedly more viable and probably more fun?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Who knows, in five years we may be playing with forty-one different Fox costumes.

That's ridiculous.
They'll be Marth.