Bowser general discussion thread.

[Xanthyr]

Using the same spacing you can easily ledge cancel aerials on BF and WW and other stages as well, ledge cancel into grab ledge again.

 

[Abeebo]

Am I the only one who likes "plutterdash"?

Screw you guys, that's what's going in the guide. ^_^

LOL. Way to take a percentage. "Plutterdash. Cool tech, huh? No I didn't make it, BUT I named it. All me."

 

[Frost | Odds]

LOL. Way to take a percentage. "Plutterdash. Cool tech, huh? No I didn't make it, BUT I named it. All me."

My ego is both massive and insatiable.

Seriously though, "koopa dashing" and "bowser hopping" are both pretty terrible. I don't think there's any possible good name for this this kind of tech, so the easiest/clearest thing is probably to literally just stick Plutter's name on it and call it a day

Also, arguing about nomenclature: we've become the squirtle boards.

 

[Abeebo]

What's koopa dashing again? Is that his trot? Also, I think Bowser Hopping should have 'Fortress' in the name instead. Along the lines of 'Fortress Hooking' or 'Fortress Climbing' or 'Fortress Tilting' or 'Fortress Falling'.

Actually, I like the last one.

 

[shairn]

Ledge jump waveland fortresshog gives similar results, except you have a hitbox out. I guess it's harder to do, but it's not particularly difficult by any means. Done frame perfect it also has only one frame of vulnerability. Not to mention it works on every stage.

 

[Xanthyr]

"koopa dashing" and "bowser hopping" are both pretty terrible.

Also, arguing about nomenclature: we've become the squirtle boards.

MAAAAAAAAAN Bowser hop/bhop is totally legit, I still find people putting names on tech or moves as completely tacky/hokey. For instance, I'd much rather say Boost Klaw than OddKlaw, not to imply any dislike towards _Odds, but it sounds wrong to me to say that. I don't like Plutterdash, even though it rolls off the tongue easily, just because it has a player name attached. I don't want something like the edge boost klaw thing I pointed out to be called a XanKlaw or whatever. I was partial to Bhop because I've played FPS games forever, and that is a very well known mechanic, and Bowser looks like he's vaulting the ledge super smoothly, like a tiny jump a la "bunny hop/bhop" so I thought it'd fit. Hell, you can just call it Vaulting and I'd still be happy with it than stapling a person's name to it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

MAAAAAAAAAN Bowser hop/bhop is totally legit, I still find people putting names on tech or moves as completely tacky/hokey. For instance, I'd much rather say Boost Klaw than OddKlaw, not to imply any dislike towards _Odds, but it sounds wrong to me to say that. I don't like Plutterdash, even though it rolls off the tongue easily, just because it has a player name attached. I don't want something like the edge boost klaw thing I pointed out to be called a XanKlaw or whatever. I was partial to Bhop because I've played FPS games forever, and that is a very well known mechanic, and Bowser looks like he's vaulting the ledge super smoothly, like a tiny jump a la "bunny hop/bhop" so I thought it'd fit. Hell, you can just call it Vaulting and I'd still be happy with it than stapling a person's name to it.

I realized Oddklaw was stupid like the day after I posted that -- used 'boost klaw' in my 3.02 bowser video, and that's what's going in the 3.5 guide. I agree entirely, basically - though i'd prioritize rolling off the tongue and clarity over pretty much anything.

Hell, bunny hopping is a pretty cute name for Plutter's stall, and looks pretty much like what the motion is.

 

[Candypants]

So on some stages bowser can ledgehop into waveland on a platform before reaching the apex of his jump.

So I thought up the following string:

Ledgehop
Perfect waveland (on platform, no apex)
Dash (if the platform is too big for bowser to drop off the edge from just the waveland)
Reverse Boost/Odd Claw

Anyone fancy commenting on the prosptected usefulness of this? I'll get a video up hopefully later in the day.

 

[shairn]

So on some stages bowser can ledgehop into waveland on a platform before reaching the apex of his jump.

So I thought up the following string:

Ledgehop
Perfect waveland (on platform, no apex)
Dash (if the platform is too big for bowser to drop off the edge from just the waveland)
Reverse Boost/Odd Claw

Anyone fancy commenting on the prosptected usefulness of this? I'll get a video up hopefully later in the day.

The important part is the ledge jump waveland, which can be used in like YS, WW, and I think BF. If you do it invincible you get center stage guaranteed, so it's definitely useful. Whatever you do off the platform depends on the situation, maybe you'll want to klaw/boost klaw nair or I don't know. Depends.

 

[Frost | Odds]

ledgehop PWL is pretty useful, but for the reverse boost klaw to be significant, someone would need to be standing under the platform in a position where they could punish you super easily for messing around on the platform. Hitting someone thereabouts probably isn't an option if you come from the ledge in that fashion, unless maybe they make an incorrect hard read of some kind.

 

[scruffy powershell]

So.. how the **** do you DI out of Cpt. Falcon's chain grab as Bowser??

 

[Electric Tuba]

So.. how the **** do you DI out of Cpt. Falcon's chain grab as Bowser??

Hope he messes up

 

[Kushina43]

Just went to a weekly, went 0-2 against a Falcon then 1-2 against a Mario who switched to Marth

IIRC my problems were/are as follows:
-I use dash attack too much because I don't really know any other attacks to approach with and follow up on
-I use Dthrow->SH Flame cancel a lot
-I dash grab less than I should
-When I try a mixup with the two I usually get predicted anyway :/
-I whiff too many dash attacks and dash grabs
-I whiff too much in general because...
-I'm impatient. I move too much because I feel dumb just standing still. Makes me do unsafe dumb **** like charging smashes in attempt to pointlessly "mindgame" or other things to that effect
-No normal wavelands
-Few PWLs because I don't know when to use them
-Too many Fairs on shield
-Lots of Dairs from above
-Don't use platforms as much as I should
-Don't edgeguard enough
-Don't know how to safely edgeguard
-DownB to ledge almost always
-Lots of Dtilts, swing twice when I only need one
-Don't know how to DI attacks and throws effectively
-Small stages I should do well on hinder me because I get hit too often due to all the previous reasons
-A Captain Falcon that got near the finals was my first opponent
-Marth's Dair

 

[scruffy powershell]

Just went to a weekly, went 0-2 against a Falcon then 1-2 against a Mario who switched to Marth

IIRC my problems were/are as follows:
-I use dash attack too much because I don't really know any other attacks to approach with and follow up on
-I use Dthrow->SH Flame cancel a lot
-I dash grab less than I should
-When I try a mixup with the two I usually get predicted anyway :/
-I whiff too many dash attacks and dash grabs
-I whiff too much in general because...
-I'm impatient. I move too much because I feel dumb just standing still. Makes me do unsafe dumb **** like charging smashes in attempt to pointlessly "mindgame" or other things to that effect
-No normal wavelands
-Few PWLs because I don't know when to use them
-Too many Fairs on shield
-Lots of Dairs from above
-Don't use platforms as much as I should
-Don't edgeguard enough
-Don't know how to safely edgeguard
-DownB to ledge almost always
-Lots of Dtilts, swing twice when I only need one
-Don't know how to DI attacks and throws effectively
-Small stages I should do well on hinder me because I get hit too often due to all the previous reasons
-A Captain Falcon that got near the finals was my first opponent
-Marth's Dair

I feel you. That first one is me, I wanna start mixiing it up with a dash into DS but it usually ends up becoming a dash attack because I mess up the input. I found that another good approach is dash into down tilt because the crouch cancel has a good counter and it has great knock back, I just use dash attack cause I over estimate super armour and it's faster. Edgeguarding with Bowser is so friggin' hard. It's like, bair and fair is all he can really use reliablly but it's hard as hell to space it without getting punished and if you duck up your LC than they recover game over. But I have found that if they're recovering low, Bowser's dair ****ing spikes and it's so satisfying. I'm still trying to learn how to DI out of throws tbh, but you're a giant punching bag as Bowser so it's impossible not to get hit, I just take the hits and try to get a good enough combo to get a stock off. Super armour is a God sent and in order to get out of throws, you just really have to not get grabbed, if you can spotdodge, it's really useful just to practice it a bunch.

Oh yeah and WD away when they graband you can avoid it

**** THE CAPTAIN FALCON MATCH-UP IT'S BULL****

 

[Osmosis124]

The only advice I can offer against falcon is to avoid nair as much as possible. That move is death, you can if CC it.
If you get me off stage KEEP HIM OFF STAGE.
Or least get all the free percent you can get.

 

[Abeebo]

Maybe this helps or maybe not.

Play Campy/Keeping Opponents Out:

-retreat with spaced/spamming fAirs like you would with Marth, except trading aerials is almost always in your favor
-mix up full jump fAirs with flame cancels.
-Run>crouch/crawl>dtilt/jab/whatever
-ftilt on shield>buffer dodge away/buffer jump
-Crawl (NOT crouch) a lot
-upB out of shield, most preferably towards a ledge to retreat to immediately after
-BeefCake your ledge game!!

Once they get all aggro and aerially(?):

-nAir out of shield
-short hop nAir
-side b forward>dAir>landed dAir
-dsmash mixups
-usmash beats most, if not all aerial attacks sans specials
-up angle ftilt
-opponent is dash dancing? space fAirs, flame cancels, spam ledge if you're retreating, or you can literally just keep running into your opponent until you're close enough to dash attack, dash grab, jump. Dash attack is surprisingly effective when used this way.
-trade more at similar percents

If they get really grabby:

-spam jab 1, flame cancels, fAirs, nAirs, upB and/or ledge shenanigans
-if all else fails, suck it. from the back.

 

[Life]

Asking for a friend, what's the Bowser-GnW matchup like? (And for me, Bowser-Squirtle?)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Asking for a friend, what's the Bowser-GnW matchup like? (And for me, Bowser-Squirtle?)

Bowser vs GnW is just horrific. Absolutely terrible. Bowser just can't get in on GnW; the hitboxes are too big and too disjointed to ever realistically hit him with aerials or flame cancel, I don't think dtilt can be CC'ed, dair is either extremely difficult or just impossible to upB oos, and his grounded stuff comes out too fast for you to play the grounded normals game.

I'm at a loss, really.

Bowser/squirtle is a lot more straightforward. Wait for him to jump and aerial, then dash attack.

Dear god, these commentators

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD6kSltYNIo

"Bowser vs Mario was even in 3.0"

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffffffffffffff

 

[robosteven]

Bowser vs GnW is just horrific. Absolutely terrible. Bowser just can't get in on GnW; the hitboxes are too big and too disjointed to ever realistically hit him with aerials or flame cancel, I don't think dtilt can be CC'ed, dair is either extremely difficult or just impossible to upB oos, and his grounded stuff comes out too fast for you to play the grounded normals game.

I'm at a loss, really.

According to G&W players I've talked to, G&W vs Olimar is in Olimar's favor (at least in 3.0) and I couldn't wrap my head around it either. It's even harder in 3.5, **** that dair.

 

[Osmosis124]

"Bowser vs Mario was even in 3.0"

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Oh God please don't remind me. Recovering against Mario was a nightmare and a half.
Fireballs are stupidly spammy and his shield pressure can be awful to deal with.
Down smash is like my final nail in the coffin, That move came out way too fast for how much knockback it did.

 

[Koopakid 64]

For me the annoying match up would have to be... Bowser VS. Ness! can't stand the PK FIRE! and his juggling you in the air crap...

 

[Jacob29]

Just be glad it isn't 3.02..

Ness was a joke vs Bowser in that version.

8 frame jump squat.. vs a projectile that covers a fair bit of space and activates on shield..

 

[Abeebo]

Anyone getting better at Bowser's edge game? I feel like mine has improved a good amount the past few months. I'm finding some useful mixups, strictly speaking Bowser under 100% of course. Honestly, I feel as if Bowser will get some significant changes in the next version since a good chunk of his options on the ledge are pretty damn good. Here's a prime example: beating a tether recovery is as easy as grabbing ledge, and when the opponent is hanging there you can drop down softly and straight UpB back up to the ledge before your opponent can reel in all the way. The low KB hitbubbles of the UpB are enough to knock the reeling opponent off the ledge and forcing them to tether again. Repeat until opponent cannot tether. Your ledge invincibility will discourage any attempt at a stage spike. If you're feeling adventurous, drop and nair to knock the opponent off and away while leaving you with your mid air jump. As far as I can see, the tethered opponent does not have an option.

 

[OnFullTilt]

Anyone getting better at Bowser's edge game? I feel like mine has improved a good amount the past few months. I'm finding some useful mixups, strictly speaking Bowser under 100% of course. Honestly, I feel as if Bowser will get some significant changes in the next version since a good chunk of his options on the ledge are pretty damn good. Here's a prime example: beating a tether recovery is as easy as grabbing ledge, and when the opponent is hanging there you can drop down softly and straight UpB back up to the ledge before your opponent can reel in all the way. The low KB hitbubbles of the UpB are enough to knock the reeling opponent off the ledge and forcing them to tether again. Repeat until opponent cannot tether. Your ledge invincibility will discourage any attempt at a stage spike. If you're feeling adventurous, drop and nair to knock the opponent off and away while leaving you with your mid air jump. As far as I can see, the tethered opponent does not have an option.

Bowser has tons of edge mixups- even after 100% since a lot of his stuff is based on ledgehops and onstage stuff too (as well as even dropzone fair/nair). He has some extremely good options for edgeguarding but needs them all since he has practically no safe options to KO opponents while they are still onstage. As a result a lot of his kills are from edgeguarding and so he'd better have a good edgeguard game.

 

[Abeebo]

So maybe Bowser has a difficult time KOing fools on the stage, but does he have a difficult time getting them off stage or in the air? Maybe i'm just feeling guilty, but i gotta admit that some of these armored moves are really starting to feel a bit unwarranted. Should Bowser really be able to deny (not even outspaced or outprioritizes. straight up denied) a Lucas OU usmash with a nair?

 

[OnFullTilt]

So maybe Bowser has a difficult time KOing fools on the stage, but does he have a difficult time getting them off stage or in the air? Maybe i'm just feeling guilty, but i gotta admit that some of these armored moves are really starting to feel a bit unwarranted. Should Bowser really be able to deny (not even outspaced or outprioritizes. straight up denied) a Lucas OU usmash with a nair?

Well it depends on percent, and he can't armor through by the time it will KO him, but anyways...

I feel the nair armor needs to be pretty strong since it's his prime tool for a lot of different things (largely because of that very armor). For instance- if an opponent is falling towards the stage without a double jump Bowser is able to capitalize almost always since if he nairs he can eat through almost any option the opponent chooses. If he didn't have a lot of nair armor Bowser would have a MUCH harder time taking advantage of this situation I'd think, and it's one of the central situations to the character I believe. Since he can't really KO onstage and punishing a landing opponent with nair is one of the main ways to get an opponent offstage, I think Bowser would pretty much be Marth syndromed, which is not something that should ever happen to someone already so slow in a lot of aspects.

Going through his other armored moves: crouch/crawl need some armor to let Bowser have a chance to actually be a moving fortress. USmash: without armor it would have practically no use since UTilt would outclass it. Dash attack: has a lot of armor, but how else would he get through projectiles and such after being damaged a bit if the armor was lowered? FSmash: Lets be real the move is horrible even with the armor. SideB: Heavy armor on the grounded version is the only thing that lets it pretend to be in the class of other command grabs due to its slowness. DSmash: Very high commitment, which justifies its amount of armor I think. Down B: Both slow and high commitment, where missing can lead to a swift death depending on the situation- armor is useful for edgeguarding certain recoveries but it does not get utilized in many other situations (if you get hit by this thing onstage you deserve it anyways).

Maybe with a retooling a lot of armor could be reduced but as it currently stands I think Bowser either needs most of the armor he has, or it isn't often relevant (FSmash for instance). Those are my thoughts at least.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Heavy armor on the nair is a bit much, though it's kinda necessary at the moment. It's not broken or imbalanced really, just bad design and unfun to play against. Hopefully if/when Bowser gets a rework, there will be less emphasis on the armor (which is still a cool mechanic, just overused in his kit atm), but be a better character overall.

 

[Osmosis124]

Anyone know of a way to Perfect waveland into a ground canceled neutral B?

 

[OnFullTilt]

Anyone know of a way to Perfect waveland into a ground canceled neutral B?

Pretty positive it's impossible because to flame cancel you need to start neutral b in the air, and the hit boxes come out after you hit the ground. To PWL you need to air dodge while in the air, and you don't regain control until landing lag is over. So basically both techniques start in the air and prevent you from doing anything until a while after you have landed on the ground, and neither technique can interrupt or be done at the same time as the other.

 

[Osmosis124]

I've been having trouble with peach as of late. I don't really feel like I understand the match.

Also that Dsmash is insufferable. I block it and I get Shield stabbed so offend. Bowser's roll is bad so I get Down smashed again with I'm rolling away from the ledge. How do I deal with this move?

 

[Frost | Odds]

You have to maintain pretty strict spacing against some characters that can out-trade you like Peach, Luigi, and GnW. Don't let them get close enough to do that stuff. Fair and flame cancel are your friends.

 

[Osmosis124]

Rip Calm Animal bodied on stream by Ipk.

 

[jtm94]

Might play this character. He's too fun and I want a different character to use against spacies. Watched homie Odds_ videos on Bowser and got tons of ideas of what to look for and what not to do. I'm still pretty noob at Bowser still, but in doubles we had trouble against a Fox as GnW/Sonic and I went Bowser and ended up winning and making him switch off Fox entirely.

What MUs could I pull Bowser out for and if I can CP to a tiny stage could that make any other MUs better that normally aren't that good?

Also you can CC GnW dtilt. It's about on par with Roy dtilt and can be CCd until 50.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What MUs could I pull Bowser out for and if I can CP to a tiny stage could that make any other MUs better that normally aren't that good?

Bowser tends to do relatively well against characters / players that tend to approach a lot and need to be at close range. Spacies, pikachu, sonic, etc are pretty good examples of this, especially on small stages like WW.

I don't know which MUs you're having problems with.

 

[Alex Night]

Bruh... The PMBR giving some awesome attention to the King of the Koopas tonight. Now to install the BIS Bowser voice pack for Project M in anticipation of this.

 

[jtm94]

Sonic really?!?!?!??!??? My training partner mains sonic. C:< What about Squirtle?
1. I just really like Bowser I have fun when I use him 2. I hate spacies and Bowser is fun against them 3. I don't like my other characters when I get CPd to a small stage.

Also was Bowser any different in the update video? I'm not versed enough to notice differences.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It looked like he was pretty much the same in the video.

I think Bowser goes about even with Squirtle, but the MU isn't nearly developed enough to call it one way or the other.

 

[Matthew]

Does anyone know how If you can DI out of the Ice Climbers' dair/fair chaingrabs on Bowser? is there enough hitstun on dair and fair to possibly SDI to avoid the followup grab?

 

[Electric Tuba]

Icies have multiple inescapable chaingrabs on bowser, regardless of DI. If you find anything that makes it harder to do, though, let me know Icies are scary

 

[jtm94]

Next weeklies I make it too I will gather Bowser vs Squirtle info. He definitely feels good vs Sonic, until Sonic starts camping you and you can't catch him. Also can't escape Sonic's upthrow > aerial and his fair meteor makes recovery scary.

On an unrelated note I tried Bowser vs Wario today and did not like that at all...