that's the kind of plan that i like
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Bowser general discussion thread.
- Thread starter Chaos_Blasta
- Start date
GeZ
Smash Lord
Ever since wavebouncing Koopa Klaw was mentioned and explained I've been trying it out. Mostly I've noticed it's an easy trick to sneak in once every game or so. Any more than that and the Ganon I was sparring with could read it or just react in time. And that's really the only situation I've made it work in so far. What are other ways of implementing that one specifically anyway?
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Wow rip in piece thread.
Anyways, wavebounced Side-B, from what I've experienced, is useful in match-ups where Bowser gets chased around (Sonic, Sheik, Falcon, etc.) The way I find myself using it is out of a dash away, trying to catch them over-committing on an approach. Klaw, in general, is a fantastic momentum-breaker and can really make an opponent rethink his/her approach. Wavebouncing it is just another way to help you land Klaw.
Anyways, wavebounced Side-B, from what I've experienced, is useful in match-ups where Bowser gets chased around (Sonic, Sheik, Falcon, etc.) The way I find myself using it is out of a dash away, trying to catch them over-committing on an approach. Klaw, in general, is a fantastic momentum-breaker and can really make an opponent rethink his/her approach. Wavebouncing it is just another way to help you land Klaw.
GeZ
Smash Lord
I definitely agree. Works wonders for breaking whatever roll your opponents on. Also what are peoples thoughts on the spike on Bowser's Usmash? I've been using it to moderate success to combo on stage and edgegaurd some characters. It's a heck of a lot of fun. And I've been playing around with fire and noticing with my friend who plays Ganon that he can crouch cancel the fire and then hit me with Warlock Kick. Any idea on how I could stop that?
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I love catching a spinning Sonic with Klaw, it's an amazing feeling.
On USmash: Meteor -> Jab reset -> Klaw makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. For edgeguarding, it's really gimmicky as well, but you have so much armor on it (including during charge, in case you were unaware) that it can work sometimes. I find myself using it more and more, it's quite good.
On the other thing: Could maybe time the end hitbox to trade with WizKick, but that's just speculation. Real way to stop it is to not do it as much, and adjust your playstyle. Something like just tapping B to flame cancel and not keep it out as long could be a good mix-up, as well.
cmart
Smash Lord
Make sure you have tap jump on and up B. You may have to alter timing for shield stun if someone attacks you, but it's really not difficult.
If you need tap jump off for some reason, you'll need to time a jump immediately before the up B.
If you need tap jump off for some reason, you'll need to time a jump immediately before the up B.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
I have tap jump off, and R set to jump. Works pretty well for me, but I'd say it's probably easier with tap jump on. As for the timing, what cmart said is accurate. You have a few frames of leniency because of Bowser's slow jump squat, so just practice and you'll get it.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
So, 2.6 Bowser.
I have only played the character for a day, and i'm fairly sure i don't even know of all the applied changes yet. But there are some that certainly stick out in a good or bad way.
Fair: This move has significantly less KB. For the most part it still is one of bowser's best kill moves late on because of how fast it is, but it's way more noticeable early on. I was a bit disappointed by this change at first, but then i realized that now Fair combes into itself WAY better now, and more often (Side B Fthrow > Fair > Fair is actually very effective now, and the opponent can genuinely benefit from DIing innwards to not get caught up by this). Overall, i feel this move was improved.
Dash grab: WOW. The range on this thing is absolutely crazy. Bowser had poor standing and dash grabs before, but this thing moves forward in a teleport-kind of fashion (And it kinda has a bad animation for it) but it suddenly becomes a very viable alternative to JC grab cause of the extra range. Being able to access Bowser's throw game more often is just fantastic if you ask me.
Down B: The move has a quake hitbox. When i found it on training mode, i genuinely thought it was useless, and dealing so much low KB to your opponent didn't benefit you much since Down-B's lag is massive anyways. But after trying it some i have mixed opinions of it: Your opponent is no longer rewarded by proper spacing if if you try to hit them with a Down B, as you can still hit them even if you miss them. In fact, the low-KB can causes tumble vs different chars at varying percents, and if they are forced to tech into the floor or on a platform, you can take advantage and punish with a high-KB move, sending them offstage or even killing at times. I think that the move was already High-Risk, High-reward (it was truly worth landing as it killed very fast, but you could very easily get punished), and you really are taking away from that by not only making the thing much safer vs grounded opponents, but also making the quake hitbox very rewarding, if not just as rewarding at times. The only confirmed change i see that i don't like and that i wish it weren't there.
Ledge Attack/Ftilt/Fire Breath/Dtilt: I feel like these moves are weaker/have weak hitboxes on them/have less endlag which means you can use them faster, but i'm not exactly sure yet.
If anyone knows any other changes in 2.6 bowser, let me know please.
I have only played the character for a day, and i'm fairly sure i don't even know of all the applied changes yet. But there are some that certainly stick out in a good or bad way.
Fair: This move has significantly less KB. For the most part it still is one of bowser's best kill moves late on because of how fast it is, but it's way more noticeable early on. I was a bit disappointed by this change at first, but then i realized that now Fair combes into itself WAY better now, and more often (Side B Fthrow > Fair > Fair is actually very effective now, and the opponent can genuinely benefit from DIing innwards to not get caught up by this). Overall, i feel this move was improved.
Dash grab: WOW. The range on this thing is absolutely crazy. Bowser had poor standing and dash grabs before, but this thing moves forward in a teleport-kind of fashion (And it kinda has a bad animation for it) but it suddenly becomes a very viable alternative to JC grab cause of the extra range. Being able to access Bowser's throw game more often is just fantastic if you ask me.
Down B: The move has a quake hitbox. When i found it on training mode, i genuinely thought it was useless, and dealing so much low KB to your opponent didn't benefit you much since Down-B's lag is massive anyways. But after trying it some i have mixed opinions of it: Your opponent is no longer rewarded by proper spacing if if you try to hit them with a Down B, as you can still hit them even if you miss them. In fact, the low-KB can causes tumble vs different chars at varying percents, and if they are forced to tech into the floor or on a platform, you can take advantage and punish with a high-KB move, sending them offstage or even killing at times. I think that the move was already High-Risk, High-reward (it was truly worth landing as it killed very fast, but you could very easily get punished), and you really are taking away from that by not only making the thing much safer vs grounded opponents, but also making the quake hitbox very rewarding, if not just as rewarding at times. The only confirmed change i see that i don't like and that i wish it weren't there.
Ledge Attack/Ftilt/Fire Breath/Dtilt: I feel like these moves are weaker/have weak hitboxes on them/have less endlag which means you can use them faster, but i'm not exactly sure yet.
If anyone knows any other changes in 2.6 bowser, let me know please.
cmart
Smash Lord
Missing with down B can still be punished - shielding or hopping as Bowser lands neutralizes rhe quake pretty effectively. It was mostly added for canon/flavor.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Indeed, but it does cut the amount of options you have to punish down b with, focusing more on aerials or OoS options.
If it was just added as flavor, there is no way the thing should be so effective as an actual move. I find it dumb that you get rewards from not hitting with something. I mean, compare DK's Down B or Wario and Zard's Dsmashes, which were balanced around the concept of having a quake hitbox, unlike this move. It's just silly imo.
If it was just added as flavor, there is no way the thing should be so effective as an actual move. I find it dumb that you get rewards from not hitting with something. I mean, compare DK's Down B or Wario and Zard's Dsmashes, which were balanced around the concept of having a quake hitbox, unlike this move. It's just silly imo.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
what
you land down b by reading your opponent
the reward is huge and worth going for just like fsmash
=l
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Oh, Uthrow no longer has WBKB. Interesting, although i don't see yet how much this affects the throw's follow-up options.
'Land' as in using it above the stage and crashing on the floor is what I meant. I almost strictly use it as an edgegaurd, only other use is a last resort anti juggle tool imo.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Well, if you just got knocked up high by your opponent and you are falling down, and you decide to use down b there, it will probably be very easy to predict and you will get punished hard by it.
But you can use it even from a shorthop to hit with it. The momentum changing properties make for an interesting, unpredictable move, which can be easier to land at times than other super strong options (Like Fsmash)
Be creative is all. "Who gets hit by it?" is a very bad mindset and you won't get as many rewarding situations while playing if you think like that.
But you can use it even from a shorthop to hit with it. The momentum changing properties make for an interesting, unpredictable move, which can be easier to land at times than other super strong options (Like Fsmash)
Be creative is all. "Who gets hit by it?" is a very bad mindset and you won't get as many rewarding situations while playing if you think like that.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
That's a crazy risk/reward ratio. Bowser has much better ways to KO that are exponentially safer. Your opponent would have to over-commit drastically in order to land a SH Down B in most situations. I will agree that it's like F Smash, but I use that move maybe once or twice a set. If it works, then that's great, but I don't see myself utilizing it in my gameplay.
EDIT: 2.6 Bowser thoughts: I feel/felt like 2.5 Bowser was perfect outside of <100% ledge attack. Down B landing hitbox is a nice touch, and nerfing ledge attack's KB is a good thing. Flame Breath's increased deterioration is probably good for balancing reasons, but I didn't really see it being a problem before, meh. Dash grab's range is now tether-grab status for some reason, so that's cool. Didn't really notice any armor changes, hopefully not much changed there. All in all, seems like the same cumbersome wrecking ball he was before, so I'm happy.
EDIT: 2.6 Bowser thoughts: I feel/felt like 2.5 Bowser was perfect outside of <100% ledge attack. Down B landing hitbox is a nice touch, and nerfing ledge attack's KB is a good thing. Flame Breath's increased deterioration is probably good for balancing reasons, but I didn't really see it being a problem before, meh. Dash grab's range is now tether-grab status for some reason, so that's cool. Didn't really notice any armor changes, hopefully not much changed there. All in all, seems like the same cumbersome wrecking ball he was before, so I'm happy.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
That's a crazy risk/reward ratio. Bowser has much better ways to KO that are exponentially safer
Define better? because you also included "that are exponentially safer", so the kill move being safe isn't part of what makes it "better" to kill. Which are these, anyways?
Bowser's Down B is amongst the highest KB moves Bowser has, comparable to Fsmash and Uair.
Define better? because you also included "that are exponentially safer", so the kill move being safe isn't part of what makes it "better" to kill. Which are these, anyways?
Bowser's Down B is amongst the highest KB moves Bowser has, comparable to Fsmash and Uair.
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Better meaning easier to land, e.g. having guaranteed setups for them or just being less situational.
Bowser can kill at reasonable % with: FTilt, FAir, UAir, DSmash, USmash, FSmash, backwards Klaw, and non-grab Klaw.
at high %: DTilt, UTilt, Up B, and BAir.
I would classify most of the above as more viable KO moves than Down B. That said, Down B will kill much earlier than most, if not all, of them.
Bowser can kill at reasonable % with: FTilt, FAir, UAir, DSmash, USmash, FSmash, backwards Klaw, and non-grab Klaw.
at high %: DTilt, UTilt, Up B, and BAir.
I would classify most of the above as more viable KO moves than Down B. That said, Down B will kill much earlier than most, if not all, of them.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Bowser's Up B actually is one of his best kill moves because of how terribly safe the thing is. The KB scales pretty damn well, too.
Of all the moves you listed most of them only really kill at late %'s, and some like Dsmash i wouldn't even say are kill moves at all.
It is true that some of them are MUCH easier and safer to land, but the reward isn't that high and the are fairly easy to expect. Down B is a fantastic move that will kill very early on but it takes a lot of prediction to hit with it, just like with Fsmash (Although it's worth noting that Down B is way more mobile than Fsmash). Thus, it's a very valid move to have in consideration when wishing to kill someone.
Obviously this is as long as you don't try to overuse it or spam it cause that will just benefit you negatively.
Of all the moves you listed most of them only really kill at late %'s, and some like Dsmash i wouldn't even say are kill moves at all.
It is true that some of them are MUCH easier and safer to land, but the reward isn't that high and the are fairly easy to expect. Down B is a fantastic move that will kill very early on but it takes a lot of prediction to hit with it, just like with Fsmash (Although it's worth noting that Down B is way more mobile than Fsmash). Thus, it's a very valid move to have in consideration when wishing to kill someone.
Obviously this is as long as you don't try to overuse it or spam it cause that will just benefit you negatively.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm liking the quake hitbox on Bowser Bomb. It always seemed silly to me that that move didn't shake the earth.
As for his other tweaks...I'm sorry, but one of the few 2.6 changes I just can't seem to get behind is the nerf to his Fire Breath. He runs out of steam much too quickly. Frankly, it looks and feels very wimpy. I never heard anybody complain about that move either, so please forgive me if I'm not understanding why this was even necessary.
And I agree that his dash grab looks very odd. I think the animation needs to be cleaned up in the future.
As for his other tweaks...I'm sorry, but one of the few 2.6 changes I just can't seem to get behind is the nerf to his Fire Breath. He runs out of steam much too quickly. Frankly, it looks and feels very wimpy. I never heard anybody complain about that move either, so please forgive me if I'm not understanding why this was even necessary.
And I agree that his dash grab looks very odd. I think the animation needs to be cleaned up in the future.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
I think that they wanted to add flavor without any regard to balance. now THAT is silly.
And fire breath was mostly useful for spacing + chomp, i did not see much of a difference in application honestly
And fire breath was mostly useful for spacing + chomp, i did not see much of a difference in application honestly
MegaGuy
Smash Apprentice
Pretty sure you can still hold shield and punish Down B. I agree with what you said about the Flame Breath though, only thing that might suffer from the change is using it for edgeguards. Not like it was the best option for that anyway.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Well if Flame Breath wasn't so great, why did it need to be changed in the first place? To me, it's borderline humorous how quickly the fire fizzles out. It doesn't look right.
I don't play Bowser much anyway. I was just curious as to the reasoning behind this change.
I don't play Bowser much anyway. I was just curious as to the reasoning behind this change.
cmart
Smash Lord
@ Chaos - I said mainly flavor, not totally. We went through a mulptiple revisions of the quake boxes to make sure they weren't silly. Making sure Bowser is balanced has been one of my largest concerns in general, so I'd appreciate it if you kept your tone civil rather than insulting.
Flamebreath was changed due to a combination of factors. The old duration and minimum reach was frankly too much for off-stage work, creating situations where a recovering opponent literally had 0 options. They could DI away and up B back into the flames, or they could DI through and get chomped and edgeguarded further. Note that despite exhausting itself sooner, flamebreath actually has more reach initially now, giving it some additional utility for on-stage work.
There's also still a few other really noticeable changes I'm surprised no one's found yet.
Flamebreath was changed due to a combination of factors. The old duration and minimum reach was frankly too much for off-stage work, creating situations where a recovering opponent literally had 0 options. They could DI away and up B back into the flames, or they could DI through and get chomped and edgeguarded further. Note that despite exhausting itself sooner, flamebreath actually has more reach initially now, giving it some additional utility for on-stage work.
There's also still a few other really noticeable changes I'm surprised no one's found yet.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
I never insulted, or meant to insult anyone. I'm as worried about Bowser's balance as you are, so it's why i'm so open about my opinions on his new stuff.
Which leads me to ask, If it was mostly flavor: what was the other part? How does the quake hitbox complement the move, or how does it balance it?
Which leads me to ask, If it was mostly flavor: what was the other part? How does the quake hitbox complement the move, or how does it balance it?
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Get up attack's KB was nerfed immensely. Although it really doesn't matter much.
Other than that, i can't say i've found a lot of changes. It's hard to tell since i don't have 2.5 readily available.
Other than that, i can't say i've found a lot of changes. It's hard to tell since i don't have 2.5 readily available.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
I think that his grounded down b can be angled a bit forward or inwards
GeZ
Smash Lord
I've been really liking his faster Ftilt and Dtilt. The tremor on Bowser Bomb is a strange addition but not an unwelcome one. I've noticed it enhances his ability to **** with people standing below platforms that he lands on. Lower knockback on his ledge attack seemed pretty necessary considering that thing could gimp and edge guard all on it's own.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Lower KB on Ledge attack is definitively obvious, but it really doesn't matter that much. It still sets up for edgeguards with other moves incredibly efficiently, an it atleast doesn't combo continously into itself.
Supermik884
Smash Rookie
His crouch armor got a lot better. I can stop a falcon punch and a knee, a Ganondorf down+B, a full charged DK's punch and a forward smash, 3/4 of Meta Knight move set, and a lot more.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
I did notice something off about that armor..being able to shrug away hits that were may more than 7%. Not entirely sure how it functions, really.
Alright, after some little testing,it does have some 'weak' heavy-armor on crouch. From 0% it can do some impressive things like absorbing 3 Knees, 8 CF uairs and even a Falcon punch, like you said.
Alright, after some little testing,it does have some 'weak' heavy-armor on crouch. From 0% it can do some impressive things like absorbing 3 Knees, 8 CF uairs and even a Falcon punch, like you said.
GeZ
Smash Lord
Well god damn. We tank now.
Edit: on a side note, I've noticed, and been enjoying Bowsers overall speed boost. Not that he's ever been slow, but his attacks and movement feel faster than ever!
Edit: on a side note, I've noticed, and been enjoying Bowsers overall speed boost. Not that he's ever been slow, but his attacks and movement feel faster than ever!
Supermik884
Smash Rookie
I'm not sure, but I think it work with the knockback since the more damage you have, the less effective the armor is.
Chaos_Blasta
Smash Journeyman
Like all heavy armors, it eventually breaks if a move is strong enough to do so. It's just that compared to his other heavy armors this one is very weak, so it barely seems like it.
cmart
Smash Lord
We'll go over this in more detail later, but we've removed all instances of percentage based armor. All armor uses a kb threshold - because Bowser's so heavy, even his weakest armor can absorb some impressive stuff at low percents.
@ Chaos - Sorry if I got defensive, I try not to stick around swf too much since I get rather heated.
Not to side step your rather direct question, but I think it's better answered by throwing you guys a bone and going over our intentions with 2.6 Bowser. Hopefully that will make some of our decisions on what to tweak a little clearer.
Coming out of 2.5, we began to see what Gimpyfish and I had feared would happen - top-level players began figuring Bowser out, and his ability to win at high-level play came into doubt, despite remaining dominant at casual and semi-pro levels. We feel this is because Bowser is a really polarizing character who has amazing punishes, amazing defensive moves, but almost no reliable ways to open an opponent up and take the initiative. Since the opponent has no real reason to play Bowser's game and engage him, this led to him getting terribly baited and camped without being able to do much to retaliate but flail around with high commitment moves or stall the match.
Now that's all theory smash, but we were seeing it born out in the tournament scene, and decided it was time to start going back over Bowser's design and tackle some of this stuff. Rather than throw it all out the window (after all, Bowser was still one of our more successful efforts overall) we decided to make it a bit less extreme. This entailed reducing some of his absurd KO power on several key moves. You guys already picked up on fair, but there are others as well. We then went back over his moveset and tried to give him several new or improved tools to catch his opponent. The longer dash grab is rather obvious, but there are some subtler nuances to it as well. We also increased the safety of his dash attack, and revamped down B a bit to encourage more offensive use of the move. Part of that was making the landing a little safer, but there's a bit more here than you've caught thus far. Finally, we tried to identify some silly/toxic elements along the way and fix them, like his ledge attack, firebreath, and an upthrow that had a near guaranteed follow-up regardless of percent.
Hopefully, 2.6 Bowser will feel less overbearing, but at the same time have more tools to combat players who don't rush into him.
Oh, and there's also a GIGANTIC change nestled in there that will see no tournament play ever. : P
@ Chaos - Sorry if I got defensive, I try not to stick around swf too much since I get rather heated.
Not to side step your rather direct question, but I think it's better answered by throwing you guys a bone and going over our intentions with 2.6 Bowser. Hopefully that will make some of our decisions on what to tweak a little clearer.
Coming out of 2.5, we began to see what Gimpyfish and I had feared would happen - top-level players began figuring Bowser out, and his ability to win at high-level play came into doubt, despite remaining dominant at casual and semi-pro levels. We feel this is because Bowser is a really polarizing character who has amazing punishes, amazing defensive moves, but almost no reliable ways to open an opponent up and take the initiative. Since the opponent has no real reason to play Bowser's game and engage him, this led to him getting terribly baited and camped without being able to do much to retaliate but flail around with high commitment moves or stall the match.
Now that's all theory smash, but we were seeing it born out in the tournament scene, and decided it was time to start going back over Bowser's design and tackle some of this stuff. Rather than throw it all out the window (after all, Bowser was still one of our more successful efforts overall) we decided to make it a bit less extreme. This entailed reducing some of his absurd KO power on several key moves. You guys already picked up on fair, but there are others as well. We then went back over his moveset and tried to give him several new or improved tools to catch his opponent. The longer dash grab is rather obvious, but there are some subtler nuances to it as well. We also increased the safety of his dash attack, and revamped down B a bit to encourage more offensive use of the move. Part of that was making the landing a little safer, but there's a bit more here than you've caught thus far. Finally, we tried to identify some silly/toxic elements along the way and fix them, like his ledge attack, firebreath, and an upthrow that had a near guaranteed follow-up regardless of percent.
Hopefully, 2.6 Bowser will feel less overbearing, but at the same time have more tools to combat players who don't rush into him.
Oh, and there's also a GIGANTIC change nestled in there that will see no tournament play ever. : P
GeZ
Smash Lord
I've noticed the second hit on the dash attack and how there's no pause before Bowser drops during Bowser Bomb, but now I'm curious. What's this monstrous ninja change that you mentioned?
cmart
Smash Lord
I'd love to tell you, but I'm waiting till someone finds it and **** bricks
GeZ
Smash Lord
I didn't have any plans anyway. To the lab!