Bowser general discussion thread.

[Ace55]

his new grab is probably his biggest buff. Except maybe the weaker fairs.

His weaker fair is a buff?

 

[Vashimus]

Maybe because he can combo multiple fairs easier?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Maybe because he can combo multiple fairs easier?

 

[MegaGuy]

I kind of preferred having an easier-to-land aerial KO move. I understand the change, just wish I could still slap peeps off the screen earlier.

/2cents

 

[Ace55]

I'm pretty sure it only combos at low percent with people DI'ing in, correct me if I'm wrong. Personally I'd take a better kill move over an unreliable better combo move any day. I kinda understand why they would change it because it was an absurdly good move speed/range/power wise. But I certainly wouldn't call it a buff.

To be honest I haven't messed around with new Bowser an huge amount so I will withhold judgement about how I feel the changes balance out.

 

[Oro?!]

It reaches the same kill threshold at roughly 105%. It does lead itself to slightly more combo potency if opponents hold in, and if they hold out it should bring similar results to 2.5 fair in that you have edgeguard opportunities.

The main reason for fair and ftilt to reach that kill threshold at 105% was to eliminate a sort of lame factor. The moves still retain all the same utility, but you will no longer likely get those "I faired my opponent at 40% and he died" moments.

Edit: Also if for whatever reason your opponents live longer than 105%, fair and ftilt are stronger kill moves than 2.5

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

It lands very consistently early on vs a lot of chars. Since it doesn't push as far back, either, it keeps your opponents much closer, letting you string more attacks together or even a stronger kill move if you take a good read off them. Fair always kind of pushed people super far so this wasn't possible before.

 

[MegaGuy]

The only real "problem" is that now the only aerial that kills reliably is UAir, outside of edgeguards of course. I wouldn't go as far to say whether I like or dislike new FAir, since its application is still pretty much the same in terms of my gameplay. It's still a fast move with respectable reach, and remains one of his better approaches. I suppose it hurts the most in match-ups where our opponent stays in the air most of the time, a la Puff and Wario. We still keep them out, just with less oomph, so to speak.

What I'd really like to know is how everyone feels about the replacement of Bowser's % based armor with straight-up knockback armor. Seems to hurt us more late game and significantly helps us early game.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Fair still kills super reliable, so does Bair. Nair and Dair also send offstage/Setup into kills so i don't see where the problem is.

 

[MegaGuy]

I suppose, it's just not as reliable as 2.5 FAir. BAir really doesn't start outright killing until decently late, though it's still an amazing edgeguard. Also, I wouldn't exactly call DAir a set-up. Again, I don't really have a problem with new FAir, just highlighting why others do.

 

[Oro?!]

I didn't know that aerials that kill at 100% weren't reliable.

 

[Ariyo]

The only real "problem" is that now the only aerial that kills reliably is UAir, outside of edgeguards of course. I wouldn't go as far to say whether I like or dislike new FAir, since its application is still pretty much the same in terms of my gameplay. It's still a fast move with respectable reach, and remains one of his better approaches. I suppose it hurts the most in match-ups where our opponent stays in the air most of the time, a la Puff and Wario. We still keep them out, just with less oomph, so to speak.

What I'd really like to know is how everyone feels about the replacement of Bowser's % based armor with straight-up knockback armor. Seems to hurt us more late game and significantly helps us early game.

Isn't that how heavyweights function in every game? They want the match to end as quickly as possible, and if it doesn't, it gets bad.

 

[MegaGuy]

I didn't know that aerials that kill at 100% weren't reliable.

I suppose "reliable" isn't the correct word. Maybe "powerful" is better suited for what I mean to say.

It's selfish I know, but I just wanna smack people into the next dimension when the mood arises.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Fair is super strong still, i wouldn't worry much about killing potential.

Dair is definitively a setup if used right. But it's probably the most unreliable and hardest to land bowser aerial.

 

[Abeebo]

I'm really digging the Fair and Bair in 2.6. Now that they pretty much autocancel, I can full hop Fair/Bair, double jump another Fair/Bair and i'll STILL have safe landing time to drop with a Nair,Flame cancel or waveland. Keeps them itches in check!

 

[GigasOverlord]

Yeah, the only thing I'm feeling that lessens my game on a drastic level is Flame. The decay is almost instant, but at least the move is still usable in combos if you land the bite. The weaker F-Air, I haven't even noticed. I usually rack up damage before attempting it, or I pop it slightly early and try the edgeguard as best I can.

 

[Darkgun]

So apparently I ran into a "Surprise, Darkgun is good with Bowser." situation at LTC, and as a result I've been putting a bit more practice into him. Out of curiosity, has anyone messed around with his dSmash? I don't think it has changed from 2.5 (and looking at the patch notes seems to have confirmed this) and I kinda overlooked it for all of his other stuff, but recently I've found that it is absolutely and without a doubt silly powerful. I'm kind of curious as to what you guys think on it, as I personally have found uses for it all over the place. Cheating knockback, punishing recoveries, picking people up off the ledges before they sweetspot, hitting people under ledges on some rare occassions, gimping (also quite rare, but no less funny. Usually happens to Fast Fallers).

In contribution to the current conversation, I don't really use flame anymore. I have been trying to think of new ways to mess with it, but since it doesn't wall as well as it did before (and it wasn't all that great at that if I am not mistaken), I'm at a loss for it's uses. To say the least, it isn't quite as silly on edgeguard anymore.... I think I'll play around with it a bit more, see if I can't think of something.

 

[cmart]

Dsmash -> death edgeguards are my favorite things ever, but you can usually skip the dsmash and go straight to death. I pretty much only do it for style, or if I'm not confident on my execution of death at that particular moment.

 

[Abeebo]

Dsmash is pretty boss. Ever since I found out it does 28% fully connected, my jaw has dropped and hasn't fully made it back yet. The hit boxes seemingly extend further out the back than the front too, so the range is kinda deceptive. That's my favorite part. Its a great wall/damage racker. I don't think its a terribly great and useful move, but it definitely has its place among bowsers smashes. One for damage racking, one for killing, and one contains two hit boxes AND a quake.

I still think we should get more out of flame breath. I want it to be a tool and not just a ranged move to occasionally poke people with while I'm landing. A full charged initial hitbox with new kb properties(push or pull), faster head tilting, fireball ala OG super mario (I picture this move being really slow and short ranged. The fireball get spat out, then slowly drifts towards and along the ground), better aerial uses (wider radius, or a quick short burst of flames), walk while flaming...... I dunno. Just spitballing with hopes.

Also, is dtilt supposed to not utilize the crawl light armor? Sometimes I feel hopeless against PK fire spam.

 

[MegaGuy]

In addition to the other things said, I can sometimes get DSmash to work as an anti-air.

I've had a few different opinions on Flame Breath, and at this time I feel like it's still a very effective poke, but at the same time, the decay is a little too extreme. It'll never be a make-or-break tool in his kit, but having a projectile is a huge boon for a heavyweight.

PKF is just annoying in general. A multi-hit projectile that activates on-hit and on-shield is hard to deal with. Doesn't help that we're by far the biggest target. Only thing that helps is that we can crawl through it, but it's a situational solution.

 

[Abeebo]

Projectiles are definitely a plus for heavyweights. The thing is, simply having a projectile isn't always enough. The only other legit heavyweight with a projectile is DDD, and those waddles surely have more uses than flame. Yes, Bowser's Flame can hit people at a longer distance than his arms can. Then what? Cooldown prevents a follow up, and even the start up is only ignored IF youre landing. It disrupts, but only briefly and infrequently due to the current decay. Bowser's head moves a bit too slow for regularly correcting the initial angle in order to catch opponents above or below. Overall, Flame feels somewhat of a niche move for such a burly character. I use it often as it still serves a purpose, but i'm worried this move will forever be doomed to just be long-range for the sake of long-range. Perhaps Flame being a form of tool is what he needs to rise up a rank or two.

PK Fire will be the death of me. The Ness I play sometimes just enjoys seeing me burn. No grabs, no attacks. Just PK Fire over, and over, and over, and over......

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Use of flame depends strictly on the character. I rarely use it because most chars have viable air approach option that simply gets through flame's hitboxes and smacks bowser with ease. Captain Falcon is an excellent example, cause of his incredibly airspeed which lets him go in and stuff a knee on bowser's face.

 

[MegaGuy]

Aaayyyyyy we're back! How have y'all been?

Thinking of making a series of guide videos on Bowser, but I'd need some help collecting frame data and such. Of course, I welcome any and all input on it, so let me know if you're interested!

 

[GeZ]

Sounds cool. Are you thinking of making it something for entry level, or advanced players?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I can probably provide a lot of helpful tips for a bowser guide. Let me know if/when you're creating it and i will gladly provide assistance.

 

[GeZ]

I think I could help in some quantity, if it's needed. Just post whenever it's underway and I'll pitch in anything I can think of.

 

[MegaGuy]

So, I think what I'm going to do is make a series of videos. The first one will encompass the basics of Bowser. This is what I'm thinking of covering:

• Synopsis of Bowser
• Moveset breakdown/analysis
• Explanation of Armor
• Offensive and Defensive strategies
• Basic techniques

If you guys think of anything else, let me know. I'd also like to get frame data if I can, but don't really know how to go about doing that..

 

[GeZ]

Sounds cool. You should probably cover his grab game since it's nothing to sneeze at. And I'd just make sure you cover all uses of moves, like how his Usmash isn't just a powerful upward hitting move but also situationally a spike. Just all the fun little details like that.

 

[Abeebo]

Any push on those Bowser videos? Maybe I'll go through the existing threads and pull up some neat stuff. Are we specifically looking for current version Bowsers(2.6b)? How forgiving is this data going to be?

 

[JTsm]

Congratz boozer mains (sorry for irrelevant post)

 

[Abeebo]

Congratz boozer mains (sorry for irrelevant post)

666 pick up sticks

That's awesome. Imma keep that image.

 

[EmptySky00]

I have a question. It might go in the bug thread but I doubt it (I don't care, I doubt it.)

When I try to put textures on Bowser, it always freezes. Regardless of which one I use. .pac and .pcs, it doesn't make a difference. Do I need to smack the creators of the textures, or is this just a thing with P:M?

 

[Abeebo]

I have a question. It might go in the bug thread but I doubt it (I don't care, I doubt it.)

When I try to put textures on Bowser, it always freezes. Regardless of which one I use. .pac and .pcs, it doesn't make a difference. Do I need to smack the creators of the textures, or is this just a thing with P:M?

This question definitely doesn't go here as it has nothing to do with Bowser's matchups. The Help/Custom Content section would be more appropriate. Regardless, it has to do with the textures and not the game itself assuming your copy of PM works fine. As far as I remember, both pac and pcs is needed for Bowser's textures as he is a character than can transform into another(Giga Bowser). Re-read whatever tutorial you got very thoroughly and try again. Any more questions? Once again: Help/Custom Content section.

 

[EmptySky00]

This question definitely doesn't go here as it has nothing to do with Bowser's matchups. The Help section would be more appropriate. Regardless, it has to do with the textures and not the game itself assuming your copy of PM works fine. As far as I remember, both pac and pcs is needed for Bowser's textures as he is a character than can transform into another(Giga Bowser). Re-read whatever tutorial you got and try again. Any more questions? Once again: Help section.

But this isn't the MU thread. It's the general discussion thread. I wouldn't have put it in the MU thread, and this is pretty general, but fair enough. I felt help section was too circuitous since I don't really need help and just wanted someone to answer who had expertise on the matter (Bowser mains who employ texture hacks). My apologies regardless.

Alright since it's not a thing I've no further questions. I'll just have to mess around with it more until I get them to work. Has to be something stupid. Bowser has some pretty nice textures. I like Bowser.

 

[Abeebo]

Well i'll be dipped in spit and rolled on breadcrumbs. This IS the general discussion thread. My bad and no worries. But yea. pac and pcs always go together for Bowser.

 

[Abeebo]

Sup Kooplings. 3.0 Bowser is soon headed to a town near you!

Has anyone been pondering about what changes Bowser may or may not get? The idea of Dry Bowser AND at least 2 new characters makes me think 3.0 Bowser is going to be something fierce.

 

[Abeebo]

I'm assuming that Flame Breath will be changed for the better. I can only recall posts of sub-par opinions for the 2.6 iteration, so i'm hoping that's a given. Personally, as long as they didn't mess with DSmash hitboxes and Nair(though I would love a 1% damage buff on it), then I think i'll be happy.

If rumors are true and we get 7 characters instead of 2, then I can only imagine what they'd have to do(I should be a rapper). That would be a lot of balancing and metagame to reconsider.

 

[GeZ]

I'm assuming that Flame Breath will be changed for the better. I can only recall posts of sub-par opinions for the 2.6 iteration, so i'm hoping that's a given. Personally, as long as they didn't mess with DSmash hitboxes and Nair(though I would love a 1% damage buff on it), then I think i'll be happy.

If rumors are true and we get 7 characters instead of 2, then I can only imagine what they'd have to do(I should be a rapper). That would be a lot of balancing and metagame to reconsider.

The rumors aren't true. I've played the current developer build and the other members of the cast aren't near completion. Not that they're not awesome (Samus has some really cool new tech, and Olimar is CRAZY) but they're currently pretty rough and haven't been publicly shown off because of that.
In regards to Bowser, I haven't played him too much, but as far as I can tell there aren't any major changes to him like some of the other members of the cast have been undergoing. I'll test him out more next time I get to play but he seems very untouched as of now, which I'm personally fine with as I think he sits at a good place currently.

 

[Abeebo]

That's interesting to hear. I've always been looking forward to Oilmar's release as he was my brawl main.

I'm just hoping 3.0 fire breath isn't quite as lacking as 2.6. It would've been rad if Bowser got a third sideb option. Either way. And what exactly is this place that you're referring to?

 

[GeZ]

That's interesting to hear. I've always been looking forward to Oilmar's release as he was my brawl main.

I'm just hoping 3.0 fire breath isn't quite as lacking as 2.6. It would've been rad if Bowser got a third sideb option. Either way. And what exactly is this place that you're referring to?

I play at in Santa Barbara at a weekly fighting game meet up and sometimes with the Dev Dantarion, who has the current developer build of the game, so I get to try out stuff with him.