Bowser general discussion thread.

[Abeebo]

You're lucky I'm not a betting man GeZ, or you could have made me a rich person B-)

 

[krich2nd]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting Marth? I find that I have difficulty getting out of chain grabs and being juggled at relatively low percents.

 

[.fube]

Does anyone have any tips for fighting Marth? I find that I have difficulty getting out of chain grabs and being juggled at relatively low percents.

I find the Marth matchup pretty hard. Properly utilize ccing to counter his aerial approaches can be very helpful. You need to force Marth to approach you and look for trades and punish opportunities. As far as avoiding chain grabs, there isnt too much you can do. You can start by trying to avoid getting stuck shielding- opt for more offensive options like up-b or jab when under pressure. Stuffing his approaches with properly spaced d-tilts and occasional flames can also be very useful. One redeeming point of this matchup is that Bowser can combo Marth pretty hard and is generally pretty good at edge-guarding his recovery.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Against Marth, recognize that his only approaches are basically SH nair/fair, or running up to grab you. You can crouch cancel or just straight up out-range him with dtilt/ftilt on the ground, and upB OoS or SHnair to challenge him in the air.

This matchup isn't nearly as bad as it feels, I promise. Just play carefully, stuff his approaches, and tack on damage with dashgrab techchases, well-spaced fairs, and properly timed nairs. Finish him with a Klaw or upB. No need to do anything fancy.

 

[Ace55]

Against Marth, recognize that his only approaches are basically SH nair/fair, or running up to grab you.

I'd add dtilt to that, but you can cc that too. Marth's approaching with aerials is going out of style anyways because it's pretty unsafe

Imo: like most of Bowser's matchups you have the tools to beat every option they have in neutral and punish them hard for it. Howeverif you swing and miss you're gonna have a really bad time. With Marth's godly dashdance game you basically want to force him back without committing too much until he is forced to go on offense, defense or try to get past you, that's when you are in control.

That said I feel like it's much easier for Marth to bait something out of Bowser than it is for Boozer to go perfect stalker mode.

 

[Frost | Odds]

^

Bowser's dtilt is really, really good for footsies against Marth because of the low commitment level, and how Marth has a really hard time beating it on the ground.

 

[Ace55]

^

Bowser's dtilt is really, really good for footsies against Marth because of the low commitment level, and how Marth has a really hard time beating it on the ground.

I agree.

 

[BJN39]

So I'm doing this project on the Zelda boards for MUs where I ask people who have experience on both character boards to give their ratios for the MU.

In this case, I mean the Bowser:Zelda MU. @ Anyone who has MU experience here as Bowser playing against Zelda, what do you think the MU ratio is?

EDIT; Also posting this to the MU thread for bowser (Accidentallly missed it. )

 

[CPU?]

So after a month of absolutely nothing on this thread what are some changes for 3.0 Bowser that you guys have noticed?
Just started playing pm a week ago so I myself wouldn't notice any changes if there were any.

 

[Senpai♥]

So I'm doing this project on the Zelda boards for MUs where I ask people who have experience on both character boards to give their ratios for the MU.

In this case, I mean the Bowser:Zelda MU. @ Anyone who has MU experience here as Bowser playing against Zelda, what do you think the MU ratio is?

EDIT; Also posting this to the MU thread for bowser (Accidentallly missed it. )

As someone who's training partner is a Zelda player, let me tell you--it's not good. At all. Zelda has no issues camping him all day with Din's Fire, getting easy F-Air and B-Air sweetspots, and generally punishing Bowser for trying to approach her. It's a match-up you have to play aggressively, and she can and will punish you for it.

Your best options in the match-up are to try and bait her into using Nayru's Love or Din's Fire from close enough and slapping her with a f-air, or attempting to predict her recovery and outright kill her--she won't leave herself vulnerable at any other point.

I've never had a harder match-up with Bowser than Zelda, and I'm convinced that I'm going to need a good secondary to handle her. He just doesn't cut it.

 

[Abeebo]

Zelda is a son of a fish, but it's far from hopeless. It's all about staying in that sweet, sweet mid-range where she's gotta think about whether to din's fire or attack. YOU GOT HER! Also, you can almost always see fairbairs coming at you, so shieldgrab when you can. Also, grabbing the ledge often while she's off stage will pretty much force her to predictably recover onstage.

Lately i've learned how much of a pain Sheik is. Is there a way to get out of those chaingrabs? Playing footsies with her is so tedious since she can have an easy time getting in with careful crawls, big dash attack, and great agility. She has little problem shaking us off with tilt combos and nairs. Sometimes during her combos i can sneak in a Flame Cancel as i land onto the floor, but that's out the window at mid/high percentages. She's got our recovery locked down too: needles help prevent low recoveries and her Fair sends us right back out there regardless of where we recover. OY!

Also, Toon Link is such a nuisance if his projectile game is solid. Approaches are NOT happening in any form for us. Crouch Canceling is worth spit in this MU. Disjointed and powerful dair+other aerials keeps me grounded and forcing me to play safer, but stay on the floor too long and TL will grind you up with grounded up b to whatever+more projectiles. Up throw to aerial up B prevents me from outlasting his stock. OY!

 

[Shök]

Went to my first tourney in years. I decided to play Bowser against Diddy. Not a good time. :/

 

[Jacob29]

lol Sheik v Bowser it's a pretty .. well.. you seem to know already. If she grabs you I think at any % its a guarantee'd followup and seeing how slow we are and punishable that isn't a difficult thing to do.

Toon Link I dunno, I've only played vs Jolteon a little bit on like one day and I didn't think the matchup was too hard until I took him to Warioware..

the projectile camp was real, granted he doesn't want to fight Bowser on WW as I can kill him so early so he resorted to standing on the top platform and spamming bombs AGT'ing them down and moving upwards. Would get like 2/3 out in 1 jump and made it exceptionally difficult to approach.

Afterwords he told me he has done that against Bowsers before and has timed someone out with it, pretty crazy.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I think Bowser has an advantage vs Zelda.

 

[?.?]

So can anyone explain the input for flame cancelling? If it's just landing during the startup frames I can do that, similar to falcos lasers in brawl.

 

[Jacob29]

Pretty sure it's exactly that.

 

[9Kplus1]

Wow you people are inactive.

So I've become a full Bowser main, and something legitimately concerns me about this character:

Why doesn't Bowser have Giga Bower's Dthrow animation? Current Dthrow looks like poop and a quarter.

Also Bowser is only -1 vs Diddy; come @ me :]

 

[Mr. Bones]

Wow you people are inactive.

So I've become a full Bowser main, and something legitimately concerns me about this character:

Why doesn't Bowser have Giga Bower's Dthrow animation? Current Dthrow looks like poop and a quarter.

Also Bowser is only -1 vs Diddy; come @ me :]

Congrats. We need more Bowser players. I'd be a lot more active personally if I could play more often than I do and bring more beneficial tournament videos to the table. Unfortunately my stuff rarely gets recorded.

And yeah, the most difficult part of the Diddy MU for me is just the damn command grab. Lol. I be stealin' his peels all day 'err day.

Did you have any Bowser insight or unique things to bring to the table, or did you want some advice?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

In the diddy mu it would be a lot better to play with the lead, Playing from behind increases the chances of him getting a grab to start that annoying chaingrab. depending on stage, it can get as ugly as 0-36% or 0-84% or death(d.i doing little to stop it till about 50+% and can still be read). Being able to avoid monkey flip definitely helps in the m.u , since this is his only guarantee to early kill setups besides gimping. Also avoid up throw at early percent because it will greatly limit his followups. As for stages, while you would assume warioware would be a given great pick, getting grabbed under the platforms can lead to some seriously devastating chains so the best bet would be playing the spacing game, using flame thrower when the diddy is boxed in the corner, and if you have to try and intercept the upb, you should probably back away and go for a quick running grab. Its easier to run forward and apply pressure than it is to spot dodge and run after a 5 frame landing abuse window . Aside from that this matchup can really blow up quickly if you dont space properly, it is good that bowser at least outranges diddy, but the superarmor is not that helpful in the m.u.
As a side note, in general it is not that great of an idea to chunk the bananas back at the diddy player, since they have been playing a lot longer with items, and are on average better at abusing them. This does not mean dont use them if given the chance, but dont just throw them right back.
Bowser good stages: Greenhill zone Wario Ware (Yoshi Story-maybe) even for fountain of dreams
ALWAYS BAN FD!!!!!!!!! put 3 x's on it if you have to.

 

[Jacob29]

Wow you people are inactive.

I'm active and check here regularly but there isn't much to say about Bowser...

I know my bad mu's and there isn't a lot of tech Bowser can explore any more than we already have.

So unless anyone posts some new stuff.. What is there to say?

 

[?.?]

I'm active and check here regularly but there isn't much to say about Bowser...

I know my bad mu's and there isn't a lot of tech Bowser can explore any more than we already have.

So unless anyone posts some new stuff.. What is there to say?

^ same and pretty much. I could ask for more help with the Roy/Marth MU but I'm getting there...

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Alrighty guys im in the process of making a Project M best versions edition, where each character is basically their "best version". Now for Bowser, what version of Project M is he the best in?

 

[cmart]

Probably 2.5, although he was pri good in 2.6 as well.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Probably 2.5, although he was pri good in 2.6 as well.

Yea looking between the two versions, 2.5 Bowser seems slighty better.
Many thanks cmart..... only 28 more characters to go!

 

[CPU?]

cmart I've been watching your videos to help my Bowser game and match-ups, and I've been wanting to know what is your reasoning to almost never using jab?? Is dtilt just that much better with the armor? I feel that Bowser's jab provides many mix-up opportunities with over b resets and other moves being thrown after the first jab.
I would love to hear you or anyone's honest opinion on Bowser's jab, and why it is, or isn't a viable mix-up or move in general.

Edit: and I'm digging the Kill la Kill avatar!

 

[Abeebo]

Dtilt has armor? Then why can't I land a full one while I'm crouching?

I love his jab. His safest get-off move aside from whirling fortress and flame cancel, I think. The only other thing I do with it sometimes is jab1jab2>wavedash toward>jab1jab2. I also just realized that I should not do the second jab2 and utilt instead. Jab>utilt is almost always guaranteed.

 

[Abeebo]

I vote 2.6. His changes from 2.5 were soooo worth it. Except maybe flame, but it was too much in 2.5. I hardly remember 2.1 and 2.0 anyway.

 

[Abeebo]

I feel like Bowser has a much easier time against Roy than Marth. The way they attack you is so different from each other in so many ways. You CAN outreach both, but you overpower Roy's sword most of the time too. I definitely go Bowser against Roy. I almost never go Bowser against Marth.

 

[SFA Smiley]

JaimeHR won a AZ/Mexico tourney with Bowser during sktar weekend.

 

[Abeebo]

Has anyone tried messing with Koopa Klaw ledge grab? I've been in the lab to work on my ledge game, and the sideB ledge grab seems to open up a situational option or two. Considering it's an instant ledge grab, you could jump or ledge attack right out of it, in addition to grabbing the ledge with your back against it without having to use upB. I also noticed that Bowser's ledge jump can be directed right back onto the ledge. What I mean by that is when you're hanging on the ledge, as soon as you jump you can just hold back and Bowser will automatically fall back to grab the ledge perfectly. You can even continue to hold/buffer back before you regrab so all you'd have to do is jump. Considering it's the fastest ledge jump in the game, I can apply aerial pressure with Fair (or really any aerial) when I jump, grab the ledge with or without Koopa Klaw for more pressure (although short-ranged), and instantly use my ledge attack. As long as i'm high up enough, I can use all my jumps to edgeguard and them Koopa Klaw the ledge super quick so I can pull out a different move asap. I find it easier to fake out opponents by jumping up and back to ledge, rather than JUST dropping down or to the side to jump and regrab. Combine these two with Bowser's super-fast waveland! When people see my Bowser flailing around the ledge like this, they kinda don't know where to start approaching (unless you have fireballs ::AHEM:: ) because I can come at them with almost the entire moveset. Koopa Klaw is super-strict on timing (you can only grab the ledge while falling and not rising) and super-situational, but it's another window we can use.

 

[?.?]

So recently I was attending a semi-private smashfest with some friends and I discovered something kinda useful as a mix-up. Don't know if anyone has realized this before so I figured I'd post it just to share, this was done on Roy at about 60%.

So to start land a side+b putting them at around 80% that's the hard part, the next part is luck based depending on their DI. If they happen to stay above you (yay!) you can land another side+b in air and due to the fact the animation isn't the quickest you'll usually fall back to stage and they'll be at the perfect percent/height to land the killing blow u-air.

I haven't tested it much but since I've learned of it I've managed to pull it off a few times, I even did it three times in a row on a friend who isn't the best. Also noticed on fox at about 10% you can land two in a row simply standing there.

 

[Haxious]

I'll just leave this here....

 

[Jacob29]

You can also side-b to down-b if they di it wrong on metaknight. preeety funny

 

[CPU?]

So recently I was attending a semi-private smashfest with some friends and I discovered something kinda useful as a mix-up. Don't know if anyone has realized this before so I figured I'd post it just to share, this was done on Roy at about 60%.

So to start land a side+b putting them at around 80% that's the hard part, the next part is luck based depending on their DI. If they happen to stay above you (yay!) you can land another side+b in air and due to the fact the animation isn't the quickest you'll usually fall back to stage and they'll be at the perfect percent/height to land the killing blow u-air.

I haven't tested it much but since I've learned of it I've managed to pull it off a few times, I even did it three times in a row on a friend who isn't the best. Also noticed on fox at about 10% you can land two in a row simply standing there.

This is very possible with many characters, but I wouldn't depend on it ever as it's not worth it 99% of the time. I've landed a few side-b moves in a row and it felt great, but its something a higher level player can avoid extremely easily and you will feel stupid trying to go for another over-b and getting punished when you could of just follow up with an aerial attack. It's better to be safe then sorry.

Also, I've been working on a pretty neat kinda reset with side-b. If the opponent is at a pretty low percent (talking around 25% and lower) and you manage to get an over-b to connect, try and opt for the back throw move as it will put them in a pressured situation, and you can either run straight at them and jump towards them to try and get them to shield to land another over-b to get an easy 35%.

 

[?.?]

This is very possible with many characters, but I wouldn't depend on it ever as it's not worth it 99% of the time. I've landed a few side-b moves in a row and it felt great, but its something a higher level player can avoid extremely easily and you will feel stupid trying to go for another over-b and getting punished when you could of just follow up with an aerial attack. It's better to be safe then sorry.

Also, I've been working on a pretty neat kinda reset with side-b. If the opponent is at a pretty low percent (talking around 25% and lower) and you manage to get an over-b to connect, try and opt for the back throw move as it will put them in a pressured situation, and you can either run straight at them and jump towards them to try and get them to shield to land another over-b to get an easy 35%.

Oh I know, but even the best players fall prey to the unexpected. It's just good to know it's possible, I guarantee you 99% of the time I'll choose a different Option, I particularly like cancelling down+b into nair. But still the 1% I do use this option if it lands it's a free 20 damage tackon.

That's pretty legit, just tried it out on a friend of mine. He panicked and rolled, got a free smash out. :D

 

[Rags]

I found out a few traps with bowser while playing my friend online. Against people who like to sit back and wait, you can throw out an F-smash to lure them in, and when they rush in to punish, do an Up B and send em flying. It worked pretty consistently , but I wouldn't make a habit of doing it too much. More of a way to surprise them at high percents and possibly get a KO.

Though I would like to hear some advice on how you guys setup for a side B, since I can't seem to land it. I know if I did my kil potential would go through the roof, since I know it follows up into down B for the kill on a lot of characters, but LANDING it, that's where I'm having trouble.

 

[?.?]

I found out a few traps with bowser while playing my friend online. Against people who like to sit back and wait, you can throw out an F-smash to lure them in, and when they rush in to punish, do an Up B and send em flying. It worked pretty consistently , but I wouldn't make a habit of doing it too much. More of a way to surprise them at high percents and possibly get a KO.

Though I would like to hear some advice on how you guys setup for a side B, since I can't seem to land it. I know if I did my kil potential would go through the roof, since I know it follows up into down B for the kill on a lot of characters, but LANDING it, that's where I'm having trouble.

Really it's just practicing enough to know when it'll work and learning the armor on it. I've fought Roy so much recently I've started armoring through smashes at lower percents to great effect. I like to run up jump and wavebounce going for the actual hit as a mixup to fair sometimes.

 

[RKM]

This is just a bit of theorycraft, but technically it could be possible to instantly start up flamethrower on any platform by drop canceling flamethrower (as in inputting a platform drop and then pressing by one frame later).
If anyone is able to put this to the test I'd love to see the results.

 

[CPU?]

I found out a few traps with bowser while playing my friend online. Against people who like to sit back and wait, you can throw out an F-smash to lure them in, and when they rush in to punish, do an Up B and send em flying. It worked pretty consistently , but I wouldn't make a habit of doing it too much. More of a way to surprise them at high percents and possibly get a KO.

Though I would like to hear some advice on how you guys setup for a side B, since I can't seem to land it. I know if I did my kil potential would go through the roof, since I know it follows up into down B for the kill on a lot of characters, but LANDING it, that's where I'm having trouble.

I rarely do it standing. Its a pretty solid mix-up with approaching fair, bairs, and nairs. Its best to throw it out in tight situations. as opposed to throwing it straight of the neutral game. This is were being patient and cool headed helps out bowser players a lot. When things get heated, you'll be able to land a side-b with more success, as people tend to shield in pressured situations. And in my own opinion the less you throw side-b the more likely you are to land it as they will shield expecting a short hop fair for example.

 

[CPU?]

This is just a bit of theorycraft, but technically it could be possible to instantly start up flamethrower on any platform by drop canceling flamethrower (as in inputting a platform drop and then pressing by one frame later).
If anyone is able to put this to the test I'd love to see the results.

Tried it and I don't think its possible.

What are some opinions on Bowser's nair. I've been adding it to my game and I feel like it's a really solid move.