Bowser general discussion thread.

[Jacob29]

Nair has such a short range.. pretty much I only use it to safely come down due to it's armour (relies on them not throwing out a move that beats it).

Hard to combo into it.. hard to approach with it I think.



Other than that, I noticed something weird with Bowser's flame cancel.

In order to turn around and flame breath you have to input the opposite direction and neutral-b JUST before you hit the ground.

But if you drop from a ledge, and press the opposite direction and ANY POINT during your fall (even if you let go) you will turn around.

I noticed in my games I would accidentally turn around flame breath and I think this might be it.

 

[Rags]

hmm interesting. Alos what do you guys like to do in neutral? since that's also where I need to work on

 

[Frost | Odds]

hmm interesting. Alos what do you guys like to do in neutral? since that's also where I need to work on

Footsies with dtilt, retreating fairs, flame cancels, fairs off of wavelands off the corners of platforms, occasionally retreat to ledge. When you feel you have a good read on him, your approach options are basically

1. jump in, fair
2. jump in, klaw
3. dash in, dash attack(or dtilt)
4. dash in, grab

 

[Frost | Odds]

please note that all those approach options are terrible and you shouldn't use them

 

[?.?]

please note that all those approach options are terrible and you shouldn't use them

Pff properly spaced fair is amazing.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pff properly spaced fair is amazing.

Yes, but if you're approaching, it's not properly spaced.

 

[Rags]

So do you think I should stick to staying by the ledge, just to increase the amount of space I can control at lower percents?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Not really. Controlling the center of the stage is good in every matchup, but you've gotta recognize that Bowser's approaches blow. Force your opponents to make mistakes, *THEN* punish them. Try to avoid being the first one to attack, unless you're doing something extremely noncommittal, like a dtilt, or a fortress->ledgehog, or flame cancel, or retreating fair etc.

Your attacks come out fast-ish, so you can punish with them. If you do them prematurely though, you gonna get 0-death'd.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I just got done with a tournament in Knoxville, TN this weekend and had a great time against every match-up except a Mario player who knocked me out of the tournament. He used what appeared to be a 100% guaranteed D-throw to F-air spam that combo'd from 0%-200% without fail. I tried DI'ing in every direction imaginable but no matter the circumstance it landed every time. Have any of you had any success against this or is this a glaring weakness against Bowser in the match-up?

 

[CPU?]

Systalis Jabs, and d-tilts help a lot when your opponent gets really grabby. With jabs probably being the better option.
In a few days I'll do a post about the mario match-up as one of our best players in Indianapolis plays him, and I plan on doing a practice session with him soon.

 

[Jimbo_G]

That would be awesome. Mario has been one of my more difficult match-ups so I'll be looking forward to that.

 

[FlyingPikmin]

hes gonna suck again

 

[OnFullTilt]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but is there a reason why people never seem to do a suicide dair? It seems that you can use Bowser dair just like a Kirby dair to make an opponent's recovery hopeless. If you do follow your enemy down it would probably be impossible to recover yourself (you know, it's Bowser) but it seems like a great way to trade your heavily damaged stock for an opponent's fresh one. Do people not suicide dair because there is a way to escape from it?

 

[CPU?]

I'd rather try and get an edgeguard and live rather than to suicide. But it's definitely something you could possibly do when you have a one stock lead to finish the match, although I would never do it.

 

[Jimbo_G]

If it helps at all, you can in fact D-air over the edge with a short hop and recover. The problem is Bowser's D-air simply has no knockback and doesn't carry the opponent any farther than you travel, making it a weak gimp at best unless you just surprise your opponent into panicking. However, if you're fly enough and have a large amount of luck, D-air off the edge can combo into a Footstool which will be a nearly instant death for most characters. Unfortunately in my testing the placement of your opponent at the moment you need to footstool is too random to be done consistently. I'd love to see someone prove me wrong though. Bowser Footstooling is the only real downward angle attack available to him, and Footstooling as a whole is still a hugely under-developed technique.

 

[OnFullTilt]

@ CPU? Alright, thanks for the point of view, maybe if I'm feeling particularly brave I'll try it out sometime. It's definitely risky but I think there are a few recoveries it could destroy.

@ Jimbo_G That trick is the coolest thing I have read in a long time. I'll try it out when I have time- if I can do it consistently I'll share it, and maybe even make a short video. You have no idea how hyped I am, thanks for giving me something to look forward to.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Has anyone tried bowser in doubles? Playing around with my brother (ike, Yoshi, lucario) was pretty fun but we haven't been able to play other people yet.

It seems like it could work, but his size might be a problem.

 

[Jimbo_G]

Has anyone tried bowser in doubles? Playing around with my brother (ike, Yoshi, lucario) was pretty fun but we haven't been able to play other people yet.

It seems like it could work, but his size might be a problem.

I can't tell you whether it's a good idea or not, but I play Bowser in doubles and my teammates and I have found it's best if Bowser does everything in his power to control central stage, stay out of the air, and tries to draw attention away from your partner. Your partner is best as an extremely fast, hard hitting killer (Fox, Falcon) who can take advantage of enemies being preoccupied attacking you, which will allow them to swoop in and land critical hits.

I have a few videos of me and KO Kingpin playing doubles in a tournament last week. We made 3rd place, and that was even with me SD'ing like crazy. I'll make sure to post the youtube links for you once we get them compiled and uploaded.

 

[OnFullTilt]

Has anyone tried bowser in doubles? Playing around with my brother (ike, Yoshi, lucario) was pretty fun but we haven't been able to play other people yet.

It seems like it could work, but his size might be a problem.

Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CthS-1G0Mw4
If you look up Kirk and Scythe you'll see more games where they have teamed up. One of the commentators said something extemely similar to Jimbo in Bowser working well with fast teammates. The commentator went as far as saying that Bowser in doubles is almost like a stage hazard.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Bowser is sick in doubles, it's just team dependent though.

My main teams partner is a Wario, but I sometimes team with an MK and a pit as well. I generally take the more aggressive role and have my partner save me when it starts to go sour. Bowser get's really strong punishes off grabs too and his up and Down throw are pretty good for team combos.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Gonna be playing a bunch of bowser in doubles the next 2 weekends. You just have to really trust your partner to have the map awareness to bail you out when things get too hairy.

 

[Rags]

hmm so the general stratgey is to backup your partner? what moves should you stick to?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Not really. Just stay safe and play dirty - hit people in the back, switch targets as often as possible, plank the ledge. Your partner needs to be able to keep some of the pressure off you so you don't get combo'd like crazy.

Basically Bowser in dubs works well when the opponents' map awareness isn't as good as your teammate's, because your hits are extremely high reward; but if they gang up on you, you can be in serious trouble.

Bowser is REALLY good in teams when your opponents suck. Higher level opponents make him look pretty bad, especially if your partner isn't used to playing with a Bowser.

 

[Abeebo]

Finally made a (rough) video of my Bowser ledge stuff, plus a silly platform crawl thing. Wasn't sure which thread would be better for it. You may know most, if not all of these, but its here now and that's that.
MMMMMMM Ledge

@ Jacob29 A couple months back I think I mentioned to you that i'd make this video and you were curious to see it whenever it was done.

 

[Frost | Odds]

How does the Klaw interact with the ledge?

 

[Abeebo]

How does the Klaw interact with the ledge?

As in, how do you grab ledge with Klaw? Bowser will only grab when descending, and you have to do it soon enough and be close enough to land the grab box on the ledge, which is about where his elbow/bicep extends. You can't just walk off the ledge and ledge Klaw though, and if it's possible and I missed it, the timing would be WAY too strict and unsafe for it to be worth anything. I tried it many times. The hitbox of Klaw still comes out, but it's so far in the stage that the little bit that pokes out isn't really a threat. But hey, Bowser can grab ledge with his back.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Possible applications:
-mixup after shorthopping off ledge
-STYLISH AS HELL ledge stall

 

[Abeebo]

Possible applications:
-mixup after shorthopping off ledge

Considering Bowser's crazy-fast ledge jump and the Nairs/Bairs that can follow it (BACK UP OFF ME PMBR), this is VERY viable. It's that very ledge jump that you all should be taking from this video and pushing that as hard as you can. When you master this in addition to the universal ledge grab options and the many ways Bowser can grab ledge, you should have multiple answers to many recovery options and whiffs from any character in the cast.

 

[FakeKraid]

Nair has such a short range.. pretty much I only use it to safely come down due to it's armour (relies on them not throwing out a move that beats it).

Hard to combo into it.. hard to approach with it I think.

I get tons of use out of nair myself - it's my go-to air for follow-up, tech-chasing, and OtS edge-guarding. I even use it OoS for punishes and escapes if I don't think an up-B will be safe. It has quicker IASI frames than bair, better landing lag on an L-cancel than most of his other airs, and a better hitbox for punishing good DI after an uthrow or utilt than even fair does in a lot of situations.

And the Klaw has one exceptional use in edge-guarding - it can be used from a pop-up jump from the ledge to punish up-B landing lag against tethers and characters like Marth, Shiek, and Captain Falcon who can be tricky to edge-guard if they sweet-spot but have super long lag on landing by throwing them right back off the stage the way they came, something not many characters can do without a lot of tech skill and reading.

 

[adlp]

how do you cancel down b for the aerial chase?

 

[OnFullTilt]

how do you cancel down b for the aerial chase?

You hit the jump button anytime before Bowser reaches the peak of the move. As a result you can actually cancel it at different heights. Just be aware that it uses your double jump as you do it.

 

[adlp]

thanks braj

 

[FakeKraid]

Klaw ledge-stalling is nearly impossible and not safe. Landing a Klaw off-stage is risky whether it hits or not. The only off-stage use for it is to use it after a pop-up jump to punish up-B lag or a tether hop with a powerful back-throw right back off the stage, and that is a skill WELL worth learning for its utility against the likes of Captain Falcon, and Ivy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Klaw ledge-stalling is nearly impossible and not safe.

Best work on your B-reverses then, unless you're talking about something completely different :O

 

[FakeKraid]

Best work on your B-reverses then, unless you're talking about something completely different :O

I mean using it over the edge and grabbing the ledge from it repeatedly, which is usually how I interpret "ledge stall". It's not safe not only because messing it up means death, but because grabbing an opponent also means death. Not only that, you don't maintain invincibility or stay below the ledge, so it leaves you vulnerable to your opponent.

EDIT 1: I've been using the phrase "pop-up jump" and I should probably clarify that by that I mean, from hanging on the ledge, tapping away from the ledge to just let go then immediately jumping. It's how you start a lot of recovery and gimp options with a lot of characters, and Bowser is no exception. You can also wavedash onto the stage from it.

EDIT 2: The video Abeebo showed above still has a lot of useful stuff in it and I encourage every Bowser to get as good at that or better at ledge-play because it's central to Bowser's offense even if the Klaw tricks specifically aren't useful. Good job, Abeebo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

if you ledgehop backwards from the ledge then wavebounce your klaw at the ledge after your jump peaks, you won't grab anyone but can actually clip them with the klaw's hitbox.

Still useless, but still looks/sounds amazingly stylin

 

[FakeKraid]

if you ledgehop backwards from the ledge then wavebounce your klaw at the ledge after your jump peaks, you won't grab anyone but can actually clip them with the klaw's hitbox.

Still useless, but still looks/sounds amazingly stylin

Yeah, I can do it, but when you're in a match against a serious opponent it's just not worth the risk. It's way more stylin to win matches. But, as I said, it was the only impractical thing in Abeebo's video. Using the ledge-jump and bair is key for defeating Snake and DeDeDe's recovery, for example, and he didn't even show it in what I watched but dair is also great after a ledge jump, especially if you do it quickly enough to stay invincible on the way up - if you're slick you can turn it into an option select by watching your opponents reaction and just DI'ing back over the edge if they shield, where you can easily grab it again and repeat or do something else.

 

[GeZ]

Yo, realtalk, I think Bowser has the best DACUS. Not because it goes any farther than just Dash Usmash, but because when done right you get his Dash Attack roar on his Usmash, and if you don't think that's the tightest **** ever you can get outa my face.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wait
Can bowser Gatling?

 

[GeZ]

Wait
Can bowser Gatling?

I think I've tried but I'll try again right now. I'm almost positive he can't boost grab.

Edit: as far as I'm seeing he can't. I think it's something to do with DA startup. Also I revisted his DACUS and realized it's tight as hell because he does both roars. best SFX.