Bowser general discussion thread.

[Chaos_Blasta]

if you think falcon is easy the falcon players you play against are probably bad or don't play the matchup appropriately

same with fox but to a lesser extent

The CF players i play with usually get into extremely long combos that take 70-80% off me and even kill outright, even taking DI into account, so i understand where people are getting the idea that CF is a very bad MU

Just CF is easier to handle. His attacks are not as fast, he has no projectile, his everything is unsafe on shield, and if anything, he's much easier to combo & edgeguard than Fox due to both having a considerably high fall speed while not being as bad as the Spacies', and him having like, an horribad recovery all the time.

CF can easily bait you and get a grab and when he does you're pretty screwed. But i don't feel like he has many ways to pressure you at so many ranges compared to someone like Fox, Sheik or Link. Just space yourself properly with fire breath and fairs, or stay on the ledge in where you are pretty safe from CF.

 

[cmart]

You can't shield pressure a smart bowser. Even if the spacie is frame-perfect, you can fortress early and beat out/trade with their opener. Now you can always **** up and get pressured/punished/baited - but on a pure shield pressure vs fortress level, Bowser wins hands down.

 

[\Apples]

Smart Bowser? It's braindead easy to UpB OOS when it gets hit and retreat to a ledge. Hell, it's pretty much a broken tactic, so it's more like if you're not UpB'ing constantly, you're a dumb Bowser.

Against Falcon, it's probably pretty close to even if not just because Bowser can abuse that tactic. Sure, Falcon's game starts with grabs, which Fortress OOS doesn't alleviate without a hard read. Still, Bowser has to work much harder for the win, but I think in the end, it'll be pretty even. A friend of mine disagrees and thinks at best it's even for Falcon, but I still think Falcon has the edge.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

CF can easily bait you and get a grab and when he does you're pretty screwed.

that is why

his combos are not why

his mobility is why

if falcon does not want to approach you and is smart about his dash dance camping and movement you're probably not gonna catch the guy and that makes all your edgeguarding and combo ability pretty much worthless

in melee (when i was good and not uberrust) every time i got falcon off the edge he was dead. that was still one of the worst matchups that there was for him. it's not quite THAT bad anymore obviously, but it's still quite bad.


ALSO

your friend doing large combos on the biggest fattest combo bait in the game does not mean that they are playing the match even close to correctly or even that they are actually playing well from a technical standpoint

not trying to be a jerk, and if it comes off that way i'm sorry

but being able to win exchanges consistently is one of the most major factors in matchups, (not combos and edgeguards and etc) and that is why bowser struggles vs a lot of the speedier characters WHEN THEY ARE PLAYED AT A TOP LEVEL. If you're playing a character with less range that is barely faster though or some other specific situations yeah bowser absolutely wrecks

bowser is also the biggest noob destroyer i've ever seen

IMO ganon was that in melee where you just demolish non high level players for free, but bowser does that job x 200 in project m. if you're NOT playing at a top level, then yeah, bowser is probably the best character times a billion. but not at a top level.

falcon is very hard, and fox is also hard

just not how most (99% of players) play him.

You can't shield pressure a smart bowser. Even if the spacie is frame-perfect, you can fortress early and beat out/trade with their opener. Now you can always **** up and get pressured/punished/baited - but on a pure shield pressure vs fortress level, Bowser wins hands down.

shield pressure might not be the right word, but you can pressure bowser. if spacie timing is frame perfect, or peach float cancel, or other long ranged low lag situations show up, no ATTACK is going to beat bowser's up b, but shield actually DOES come out fast enough (in some sitatuions) where you can bait and punish

up b to ledge definitely makes it unpunishable in some positions, but a mobile fortress is not faster than a fox haha so if you're on like fd for example near the center you can absolutely get baited and punished

this can also lead to the occasional shield grab instead of up b, but the risk there is very high

 

[E-102 Gamma]

bowser is also the biggest noob destroyer i've ever seen

IMO ganon was that in melee where you just demolish non high level players for free, but bowser does that job x 200 in project m. if you're NOT playing at a top level, then yeah, bowser is probably the best character times a billion. but not at a top level.

I had been thinking about P:M Bowser's similarities to Melee's Ganon lately, with regards to his potential tier list placement (once the metagame fills out more) and how impossible it is for uninformed or otherwise mediocre players to beat him. And I totally just got vindicated. Thanks.

 

[cmart]

Gimpy's response is why I said a smart Bowser. Up B oos is only braindead if the opponent is spacing aerials high into your shield over and over.

Also agree w/ Gimpy re: Falcon and Fox. I honestly think Falcon is Bowser's worst matchup hands down.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

@Gimpy: I understand most of your points, particularly that having good mobility vs Bowser is what can make a MU bad or even terrible for him. I simply feel that with all the new tools Bowser got on PM it makes the MU not that bad and perhaps even close to even but i could be wrong.

Do you think CF is a harder MU than Fox, and if so, why? i mean, you already explained why you think CF crushes Bowser in your opinion, i just want to know how that particular aspect expands into other characters.

Cmart: What do you think of the Link and Sheik MUs, respectively? or Fox, even?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

it's better than it was in melee, and like i said before if the person isn't playing the matchup correctly it's pretty much over for anyone against bowser

but falcon has the tools required to make bowser wiff something and punish him with fat combos and damage and then repeat that scenario until you're dead.

the matchup is better than in melee for a few reasons though

one reason is that firebreath is better, and flame cancel is always present. That means you have at least SOME sort of a long ranged tool to ATTEMPT to stop him from dash dance camping and just using his mobility to be uncatchable by ultra slow bowser. another reason is that bowser himself (and his hitboxes by extension) are much larger. which means that you don't have quite as much trouble REACHING him when you're finally closing in. another reason is stages. On a stage like say metal cavern for example captain falcon simply doesn't have the room to run around and get away from Bowser, so there's another thing that is in his advantage.

This also applies to fox, and even other fast or projectile based characters like link pit toon link wolf falco ivysaur etc.

again, this assumes that the player who is playing that character has the technical ability and the patience to actually stick to the "don't get in situations where bowser is at advantage"


Basically when bowser can touch his opponent, he should win. He basically feels like he's designed to beat a character if he can win roughly 1 of every 3 exchanges. ESPECIALLY with how well he can edgeguard in project m 2.5. If you DO touch them - you better be able to put them away.

 

[Shadow Huan]

PM Bowser is not as good as melee Bowser in one respect

his less than 100% getup attack sucks in PM, and was utterly godlike in melee

 

[cannedbread]

whoa dude back that *** up

 

[Shadow Huan]

it clanks, with just about EVERYTHING. mario bros fireballs, falco's sideB, most characters JABS, most attacks in general.

in melee, the attack hitboxes clanked, but bowser's animation continued and he maintained his invulnerable status until the animation ended

in PM, it clanks and Bowser stops dead in his... er... tracks, and is even in hitstun, a big step down imo

perhaps the melee version had transendant priority? i dk

also +1 on falcon being boozer's worst MU

 

[Ace55]

Ledge attack sucking is like the exaggeration of the year lol. Still best in the game by a huge margin. But yeah, that aspect of it is worse compared to melee. Aside from being even better combo food that's the only thing I can think of that's worse though.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

the move clanking and then stopping actually improves it as you can't just stand near the ledge and jab with most characters (which DOES clank in melee) and then just punish him when the invulnerability is over

when it clanks in melee that single hitbox is DONE and then you get punished.

 

[himemiya]

So koopa master would you say down-b (on ground) to the ledge makes a good edgeguard? I had a few good kills off of that.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

grounded down b is one of the most useful moves in bowser's arsenal for many reasons so the short answer to your question is yes

 

[Shadow Huan]

it makes characters very sad lol, i don't think there's a recovery that has enough knockback to break through the super armor is there?

it won't work on the tether characters like against everyone else but at least you can still threaten while you're on the ledge.

the getup clanking with falco and fox's sideb is still annoying to me lol, but if no one else thinks it's an overall bad thing then whatevs

 

[DrinkingFood]

it makes characters very sad lol, i don't think there's a recovery that has enough knockback to break through the super armor is there?

Well since it's technically knockback armor, at a high enough percents, almost anyting except like weak jabs and projectiles will break through. Most recoveries are a lot stronger than that, so at high enough percents, lots of recoveries will trade with it, but at low - medium percents, bowser will almost always armor through. But since Boozer's *** is seriously fat, trading at higher percents would still be worth it to kill your opponent.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Down B works on a lot of characters that have either bad or very linear recoveries which they can't mix up (Bowser, Wario, CF, Ganon, Squirtle, Luigi, etc). It generally never works on chars such as Spacies, Puff, Peach, Pit and Pikachu, among others, due to the vast amount of options you need to cover at once (And if you try to Down B ledgegrab vs spacies you can easily die due to getting Phantasm/Illusion edgehogged), but they can be useful to take control of the ledge and then try to edgeguard using other methods like a getup attack or Bair. It will not work on tether characters if they DO use the tether, but if they are not in the distance to use it, their recoveries are otherwise easily intercepted (Link, Tink and Lucas are good examples for this)

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So whats exactly the earliest frame that you can cancel his down b into a jump?

 

[DrinkingFood]

I've been wondering that too; I'm pretty sure it's the first frame he's actually in the air, but idk which one that is. Would be nice to know which it is so we can compare it to a regular jump.

 

[choknater]

i still think bowser is the best

 

[SFA Smiley]

Sup ya'll i'm smileyface and I like fsmashing shields

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i prefer fsmashing characters directly, myself.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

pivot fsmash is 2stronk

wavedash fsmash is kinda good too tho

 

[Gimpyfish62]

pivot fsmash is fine i guess, wavedash fsmash is slower than already super slow and i dont find it to be useful against good players at all because there are a billion frames where they can react

 

[GKInfinity]

Bowser's bair is amazing

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

B-UP Tier

Up B

God tier
Everything except Dair

Dair tier
Dair

IMO.

 

[cmart]

implying dair is in any way a bad move

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, it's not like it destroys shields or anything.

Right guys?

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Compared to all of bowser's other moves, i would not hesitate to call Dair a "bad move". It does have its applications, the main one being breaking shields on opponents on plats, but they are pretty situational, i find.

There are very few times in where i am faced in a situation and find myself thinking that Dair could be any more effective than most of bowser's other moves..with proper use, the coverage they have makes dair irrelevant, in my opinion.

I could be incorrect, of course, but IMO Dair is Bowser's worst move except for like, Ledge attack >100%

 

[Gimpyfish62]

dair is amazing in this game

and effecting shields is not the reason

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

What is?

10char

 

[Majora88]

Dair is occasionally useful for edge guarding too. It seems to reach under the ledge but that might be my opponents not sweetspotting properly. It beats out recoveries like spacie up-b recovering from directly under the edge until you can fortress- hog them.

 

[SFA Smiley]

i prefer fsmashing characters directly, myself.

I prefer to crush shields because when I break them I call the entire room to attention, look in the eyes of my opponent and yell: "I AM THE FINAL. ****ING. BOSS."

and charge Fsmash and roar.

I seriously do this. I really like Bowser in this game.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Dair is occasionally useful for edge guarding too. It seems to reach under the ledge but that might be my opponents not sweetspotting properly. It beats out recoveries like spacie up-b recovering from directly under the edge until you can fortress- hog them.

I find that, depending on the situation, Up B ledgegrab, Dtilt, Fire Breath, Down B, or even Fsmash cover a lot of recovery options in situations similar in where you'd use dair to hit there, and are generally safer overall.

Still genuinely curious about what makes dair an amazing move that isn't breaking shields though

 

[SFA Smiley]

It seems to be a decent landing mix-up. Also certain characters if you're ahead in stocks you can bowsercide their recovery and drag them down with you. I did this the other day to I forget what character.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I have tried that several times. In fact, when i first picked up bowser, i used to land with Dair a lot, thinking it was safe.

Some arguments may be that light armor + multihit make it decent at that but..i would prefer Nair much better if you really think your opponent is going to attack, or Side B if you think your opponent is going to shield. Or even better, if you are offstage or close to the ledge you should always try to Down B into the ledge, it's definitively his safest option to land/recover ever (Because Bowser is in a very good position on the ledge.)

i hadn't read about the bowsercide thing. Interesting, i guess, but it seems largely character dependant. Nair does send at an angle offstage if you get the hit right and has better armor properties, perhaps that would be better?

 

[SFA Smiley]

Bowsercide is theorycraft based off something i've done multiple times, I dunno if it's beatable or not though, Dair drags characters who get stuck in it downwards though so there's been times when I wanna finish a match off quickly I just do that and I don't remember it ever failing me.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

That's true, it sounds feasible due to the way that dair hits. I may give it a few tests to see how that works.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ledgejump (not ledgehop) down air is so beast if you know where they are gonna be, on hit you can combo into grab too

combined with bowser's fast fall and the fact that this drags opponents down and can lead to more things on hit (like dash grab) this move can be really beast if you use it well

its not even remotely safe, but the same can be said for everything bowser does sans up b with a ledge nearby