Bowser general discussion thread.

[Chaos_Blasta]

do you need a platform for that to be effective? (Ex. FD, YS, DL64) or can you just do it whenever? how does it lead into a grab, exactly?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

if the final hit lands they're in awkward hitstun and you can just dash grab them a lot of the time

watch my tournament sets from gameclucks with silent wolf, i would have have won that tournament if not for down air existing

and pretty much every other move bowser has lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

I wish Bowser wasn't forced to throw right away out of side-b :/

 

[Tmacc]

if the final hit lands they're in awkward hitstun and you can just dash grab them a lot of the time

watch my tournament sets from gameclucks with silent wolf, i would have have won that tournament if not for down air existing

and pretty much every other move bowser has lol

All of his moves are so good O.O that's what I love about him. I feel like compared to a lot of characters, I use all of his moves effectively.

 

[traffic.]

and throwing in a SH ff dair when someone tries to punish the expected aggressive fair can be a free 20% when it comes out three times as fast.

and playing bowser isn't just about being safe, it's about crushing your enemies, seeing then driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of their women. get janky yo

 

[Gimpyfish62]

you DEFINITELY want to play safe this guy is too punishable to just be throwing moves around all willy nilly

 

[Tmacc]

I want to discuss stages, like what we should ban and counterpick (counterpicks are more obvious, I'd say). Should we do it here or make a new thread?

I wasn't sure we'd get enough replies to warrant an entirely new thread.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

make a new thread, i actually have a lot of thoughts on that subject to where i think people get a little bit too autopilot with the "x is a good bowser stage" thing

 

[traffic.]

edit- lololol wow i definitely forgot a "just" in that sentence. yeah bowz speed and size require safe mental play to avoid punishment. safe play without experimenting with mixups makes for very easily read patterns, which are more punishable than any move.

 

[Ace55]

Well just organised the first kinda large P:M side tourney in the Netherlands at a Brawl/Melee event. Ended up having 21 entrants, more than both brawl (20) and melee (19). Got second, ended up losing 2-3 against Fays's Fox. Gonna study Gimpy's matches against Silent Wolf some more because god that matchup seems awful once the Fox knows what he's supposed to do.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

the match up is awful - when you touch him you BETTER kill him.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

If you play vs Fox you have to learn to like getting Uaired 23 times in a row.

It hurts

 

[AncientPancakes]

One time I used upsmash to absorb a hit, landed upsmashes 2nd hit, and then comboed into fsmash. It was very delicious.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i don't think there has ever been a situation in which i have hit with the up hit and the down hi on a fast faller at lower percents where it hasn't lead to a jab reset klaw

ever.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Usmash is one of Bowser's best moves IMO.

The amount of followups on a down hit on a grounded opponent are just too good and they can happen at almost any %.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

I think you could safely say ___________ is one of Bowser's best moves because all of his moves are really good

 

[E-102 Gamma]

What does playing as Melee's Bowser feel like after getting used to playing as P:M's Bowser?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

it feels like bowser is actually as bad as he is in melee which feels horrendously horrible

 

[Wizzrobe]

Bowser is amazing in 2.5

 

[BTmoney]

Bowser is legit. I'm a believer. Especially that bronze shell costume.

 

[Ace55]

So how do you edgegaurd Ivysaur? I didn't find anything better than take the edge, making him jump after reeling in and fairing him to the other side. Not very efficient.

 

[Oro?!]

That's the easiest method. You can Koopa Klaw Bthrow if you react fast enough as well, but the spacing and timing is obviously a lot tighter. Kirk started doing that to me when I have no other options besides reeling in.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I switch inbetween Melee Bowser and PM bowser often and i can say they feel pretty similar.

It's just that almost every move Bowser has in Melee has been upgraded in PM, except for like, Up B. Bair and Uair are one of the few moves that keep any decency compared to the PM versions. You can basically do the same things with Melee Bowser, but the rewards are SEVERELY lowered for landing any kind of hit.

Also, can't you ledge-attack Ivysaur as it's reeling in with Up B? Or Ledgejump > Bair if you can force the jump.

Oh, even Up B was upgraded. Particularly. how incredibly easy it is to snap to ledges. >_>

 

[Ace55]

Also, can't you ledge-attack Ivysaur as it's reeling in with Up B? Or Ledgejump > Bair if you can force the jump.>

Unless I happened to get a hard read on his reel in it just seemed to knock him onstage. And even when it did knock him off it just resets the situation. I think bair is too slow to hit him of-stage stage on reaction.


I was never much of Bowser player in melee but if I pick him now I'm just like: wtf is this tiny, weak, pathetic thing...

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Unless I happened to get a hard read on his reel in it just seemed to knock him onstage. And even when it did knock him off it just resets the situation. I think bair is too slow to hit him of-stage stage on reaction.


I was never much of Bowser player in melee but if I pick him now I'm just like: wtf is this tiny, weak, pathetic thing...

It should be fast enough..ledgejump under 100% is 3 frame long and sends you upwards very fast, so you should be able to bair if you force the jump. Probably.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'm just here to say

in case i haven't already

i think bowser is one of the worst characters in this game in top level play

but before top level play

i think he's clearly the best

lol

EDIT: these are not new thoughts

 

[Ace55]

It should be fast enough..ledgejump under 100% is 3 frame long and sends you upwards very fast, so you should be able to bair if you force the jump. Probably.

I'll give it a shot next time but keep in mind Ivy's reel-in is extremely fast. By the time I could react he was already above and slightly in front of me. I also think ledge-jump bair is gonna go over him. Seems more like ledgehop material.

 

[E-102 Gamma]

i'm just here to say

in case i haven't already

i think bowser is one of the worst characters in this game in top level play

but before top level play

i think he's clearly the best

lol

EDIT: these are not new thoughts

This is Project M, though. Just how much worse than the best is the worst?

 

[GeZ]

I'm working on my SHFFLing for bowser and I've got fortress hogging down to a point, so can anyone think of any other things Boozer players should really know how to do? Or should I just improve my game in general from here? Also if someone could explain flame canceling to me I'd be elated. I think I get the general concept, just not the specifics.

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Also if someone could explain flame canceling to me I'd be elated. I think I get the general concept, just not the specifics.

Assuming the FC is the same in P:M as it is in Melee, it is simply using fire breath right before Bowser hits the ground. The windup animation is skipped entirely and Bowser goes straight to blowing fire all over the place.

 

[GeZ]

Huh. Cool. Thanks.

 

[GeZ]

So what are peoples thoughts on using Koopa Claw off of ledge to back throw spike? Seems risky but wonderfully fancy if you can pull it off. And has anyone found a good use for the spiking properties of Bowser's Usmash? I've accidentally taken a stock or two using this by the ledge when people recover, but it seems like it would be unreliable in most situations. And what's the general consensus on Koopa Claw follow ups? I used to always go for Down B jump cancel Uair but it wasn't hitting most of the time so I've been defaulting to Fair after the jump cancel, but that doesn't always hit either. Are their any other cool tricks to mix up with after Koopa Claw? I've also been defaulting to down throw whenever I get a grab and tech chasing, but if there's any other good tech I'd love to start implementing it.

 

[Youngster Joey]

If you wanna win don't go for the koopa as offstage. If you miss you're in a horrible spot. With u smash you can use it when they're recovering or also when they're just holding the ledge and it could make them panic and get hit by some part of it. Bowser has great edge guard options as far as I know.

But does any one know how to deal with freakin weegee? -.- and wario and Marth?

 

[Ace55]

Wario is a horrible matchup imo (although I mostly know it from the Wario side). Marth is ok. Against both those chars try to abuse crouch cancelling as much as possible. If Marth is dash dance camping mix things up with flamecancel firebreath. Against all chars who have a strong dash dance game I've found flamecancel firebreath to be a nice way to gain space. No Weegee experience whatsoever.

 

[geno]

For Luigi, I usually just end up crouching going for dtilts until I can trip up some of those wavedashes and then chase from there. That's usually thrown off their game a bit in my experience. At least enough to make it a pretty fair matchup. Marth isn't too bad, but that might just be because I have most matchup experience Bowser v Marth. Wario on the other hand... I got nothing.

 

[Youngster Joey]

I think we should make mu threads for a lot of mus. I feel like Mario can be a problem especially with recovering. It's good we have wario but the more we have the better

 

[geno]

Man... Mario's a problem for everybody's recoveries...dat cape.
But yeah, a bit matchup thread would be cool. Someone should get on that. Hahaha

 

[MegaGuy]

Okay, so something I've been playing around with: When your opponent is hanging from the ledge, use a grounded Down-B to go over their get-up option and, ideally, squish them. Covers a bunch of options, though obviously not all of them. Bowser standing at the ledge is so scary, he covers space so well. Really fun character, gonna continue to learn with him.

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Okay, so something I've been playing around with: When your opponent is hanging from the ledge, use a grounded Down-B to go over their get-up option and, ideally, squish them. Covers a bunch of options, though obviously not all of them.

What if your opponent just stands up from the ledge right as Bowser is about to land? They'd be covered by the ledge stand invincibility with minimal lag while Bowser reclines comfortably (and defenselessly) on his posterior on the ground. Bowser would get punished hard.

 

[MegaGuy]

I should have been more clear that this is very much a read, rather than just standard ledgeplay. It's something you might catch someone with once, but there are a lot of ways around it. Again, sorry for not being clear on that.