bop

[Eight 52]

MK vs Yoshi isn't even lol, MK has the clear advantage unless you can really get a fair spike out of the release grab 1/2 the time or more.

Coming from a Yoshi main, I believe this is pretty much true. Yoshi has the chaingrab, but has not answers for alot of mks moves besides lolnado. Oh, upsmash sometimes goes through dair if lucky.

 

[dguy6789]

I am so glad that there are smart people in this state, thank god.

 

[GA Peach]

@M2K - oh, ok, i was just curious about that. thanks for answering that for me. and i do agree that a good portion of the brawl crowd tends to be a bit more of an "instant gratification" crowd.

@Fenrir - one matchup can affect how a character does in tournament if that matchup is more than likely what they will face. that is the way brawl is starting to shift. more and more MK players are starting to come up, so if the majority of players play him, then that matchup has great significance as to how they will do in tournament play. knowledge of other fighting games that have come before and are more established allows some knowledge of different trends that all fighting games seem to share. this is not 100% accurate insight, of course, but it definitely holds its weight. think about it. even with playing Melee, you should know that a domination like this is rather unprecedented. Fox didn't even dominate tournaments like this when his metagame was at its peak. that is the main consideration here, imo.

 

[ama(m/t)]

hey guys this is an interesting topic
jk who care about metaknight not me i just don't lose

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

The question that i have is, do the people that want mk banned lose to him consistently in tournaments??

And i'd have to agree with Seibrik and say that D3 is a way better character than metaknight

 

[GA Peach]

Here's the problem with you and everyone else that wants him banned, you and everyone else feels like ya'll deserve to win so when ya'll lose to MK ya'll blame him as the reason why no one else can win tournies instead of overcoming the challenge of him, At Fast 1 Me/Afro/Reflex went even with M2k's MK (best MK in the nation IMO and many others as well) that he couldn't play MK the next match he switched from "overpowered mk" to a less overpowered (D3) character and still won, point is the smarter player will win, if we ban mk then everyone is gonna cry about D3 then snake then eventually we're gonna complain about Captain Falcons DSmash killing at 80%, Fenrir beats Mks with fox, WE [me (snake/lucario/marth), Afro (snake), Seibrik (D3), Lambchops (snake), xYz (G&W), Fear-(olimar), Tommy G (Falco), Icekid (ROB), GDX (Diddy), Reflex (Wario)] all beat mks without problems using these characters so man up and stop crying, even if he's banned you're problem still gonna lose to like a zelda or another low tier character stop johning on the boards, spend that time learning the match, MK doesn't win in Florida the last tournament an MK won was FAST 1 in June or July where only one MK was in the top 5, but according to what you make it sound like, MK should have taken the top spots because there were more than 20 MK there, so it should have looked like this:

1st: M2k
2nd-20: MKs
21st and up Snake D3, other underpowered cast members

and your problem is that you argue like an extremist and seem to have a one-way track for your argument. no one is talking about FL's tournament rankings alone. ON A WIDE SCALE, OVERALL, MK is outperforming the other characters greatly, and that is the basis of the entire argument. one region's results have validity, but not to the magnitude that you argue it. and, also when you argue, try to be realistic. if people aren't crying about Dedede now, then chances are that they are not going to after MK is gone. and C-Falcon's Dsmash? i understand using exaggeration as an effect when arguing, but it does take away from an argument. also, you need to consider WHO the MK players are. you say "MK doesn't win in Florida", but then, who is playing your MKs? if you, Afro, Seibrik, and all of your best players play non-MK characters, then how would it be POSSIBLE for him to win? character isn't EVERYTHING, but when 2 people of equal skill and intelligence fight each other, it very well can make a difference. this, along with your own and each others ' skill evaluations would have to be looked at objectively, not with any bias. as stated before, i really have no preference, but i feel that the conversation just goes in circles if no one is at least a mediator, or when someone makes a closed argument.

also, if a moderator comes in, please ban ama(m/t) for being an idiot and never contributing anything to...well, anything. =P

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

and your problem is that you argue like an extremist and seem to have a one-way track for your argument. no one is talking about FL's tournament rankings alone. ON A WIDE SCALE, OVERALL, MK is outperforming the other characters greatly, and that is the basis of the entire argument. one region's results have validity, but not to the magnitude that you argue it. and, also when you argue, try to be realistic. if people aren't crying about Dedede now, then chances are that they are not going to after MK is gone. and C-Falcon's Dsmash? i understand using exaggeration as an effect when arguing, but it does take away from an argument. also, you need to consider WHO the MK players are. you say "MK doesn't win in Florida", but then, who is playing your MKs? if you, Afro, Seibrik, and all of your best players play non-MK characters, then how would it be POSSIBLE for him to win? character isn't EVERYTHING, but when 2 people of equal skill and intelligence fight each other, it very well can make a difference. this, along with your own and each others ' skill evaluations would have to be looked at objectively, not with any bias. as stated before, i really have no preference, but i feel that the conversation just goes in circles if no one is at least a mediator, or when someone makes a closed argument.

also, if a moderator comes in, please ban ama(m/t) for being an idiot and never contributing anything to...well, anything. =P

Okay lets say that MK does get banned and those people that won consistenly with MK switch their mains to Snake, D3, and Falco and those same people continue to dominate will everyone want to ban those three character or will the players be credited with the fact that they are indeed skilled?

 

[mkGmoney]

This is still being argued?

edit: MK is NOT that broken (if my position wasn't already clear)! XD

 

[Fenrir VII]

@Fenrir - one matchup can affect how a character does in tournament if that matchup is more than likely what they will face. that is the way brawl is starting to shift. more and more MK players are starting to come up, so if the majority of players play him, then that matchup has great significance as to how they will do in tournament play. knowledge of other fighting games that have come before and are more established allows some knowledge of different trends that all fighting games seem to share. this is not 100% accurate insight, of course, but it definitely holds its weight. think about it. even with playing Melee, you should know that a domination like this is rather unprecedented. Fox didn't even dominate tournaments like this when his metagame was at its peak. that is the main consideration here, imo.

No, I understand that, but saying "why doesn't Yoshi win tournaments, then?" is a flawed statement, and I was pointing that out.

And actually, when I started smasboards in Melee (jan, 04), Fox was just establishing himself as an answer to Sheik. Sheik WRECKED the early Melee metagame completely. Moreso than I've seen from MK so far...at least in my opinion. Sheik was an amazing character to the end of melee, but you only saw a few in tournaments, as opposed to Marths and Spacies.. sure, you had the stand-out ones, but there were more Fox, Falco, and Marth players than Sheik players... This is because EVERYBODY for a while had to learn how to beat Sheik, so the metagame evolved into this very anti-Sheik game for a long time that continued, somewhat, until now. Yes there are Sheiks who do incredibly well...she's an amazing character...but the effect of instant gratification went away when the community as a whole had to learn to beat her.

Now, consider that back in 03 or so, people got tired of losing to Sheik, and banned her. How would that have effected the entire Melee metagame as we know it now? who knows?

It's a fact that MK is a good character. he's the best in the game, and very easy to play at that... so many better players pick him up at least as a secondary.. that makes perfect sense. My main argument here is that it is far too early to ban him... I do not believe that he will ever be unbeatable, and I feel that the game's tier list will shift quite a lot as the game matures. Of course MK is doing well in the scene now... but there are several characters who do quite well against him even now, and as such, the community should stop crying about it, learn how to beat him and go on.

I agree that certain matchups against him would be absurd, but this is the case in Melee...it's the case in other games. bad matchups are bad matchups...simple as that.

I do not feel that MK is unbeatable in the slightest. The characters who are shown to be beating him are from pretty much the entire tier list, and as such, some of them are underplayed. I think as the metagame is developed, more characters will rise up...or perfect it, and people will learn that these matchups are good, and we will have an interesting progression.

I agree that Fox doesn't just dominate the Melee scene now, but this is after a very long drawn out evolution of the game. The best correlation that can be formed, imo, is to Sheik in the earlier days.

 

[Leh]

Honestly i say dont ban him, in florida we do fine against MK. GA Peach brings up a good point, which makes me wonder whether or not florida is ahead or behind.

If MK gets banned elsewhere, it wont be in florida. I've never had problems with MK (to the point where i considered banning him).

I think M2K also brings up a good point, the top placers do not want him banned while the other players do. While this could be something that only happens in FL (i dont know if Azen wants him banned, or any other top players for that matter), it is still a good point. The good players have learned how to fight MK's, why cant everyone else?

Fenrir does well against MKs as fox, a character considered to be terrible. That point alone should be enough not to ban MK.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

I can count 3 or 4 people in this thread that wanted MK banned a couple months back.

Thank God, you Brawl scrubs are overcoming your short comings and realizing when you lose a match, 99/100 times there's a way around it.

 

[GA Peach]

@HRNUT - that's simple to answer. if we ban MK, then the people who continue to win DO win by playing Snake, D3, and others, then there is nothing more to discuss. If that happens, MK had no business being banned, end of story. But, if different people or characters used by different people start winning, then we again have done our job. you see, this is the very basis of why i would like to see what would happen. i'm curious to know if the character is all he is made to be, or if he is simply overhyped, and i doubt anyone would dispute it anymore if the same people continued dominating with different characters.

@Fenrir - you may be right about sheik dominating tournament play like that, but to my knowledge there was no one character that cleaned up most competitions. i started melee late 2005, so my only source of earlier tournament life was from XIF or Mike G, both of which had told me otherwise. i have no 1st hand knowledge of that. I too agree that MK is not unbeatable. How consistently he can be beaten in comparison to how consistently he can beat people is my main concern. I mean, as an example, when i was at FAST 1, i was fending off quite a few MK players with Peach. she has some interesting things she can do about some of his moves, but overall, i feel that she is at a heavy disadvantage. i don't really think that Peach having a disadvantage is a reason to ban or anything, i was just using my matches as an example of MK not being unbeatable. and, if sheik had been banned, who knows how things would have gone? maybe fox and the rest would have developed the same, maybe different, but i feel that may be a little too open-ended to answer accurately. i disagree with you on Brawl's metagame development, though. while you may feel that more characters will rise up and learn how to beat MK, i feel that MK players will simply learn how to deal with them more efficiently. i think all the top echelon of characters are capable of beating MK, but anyone below should simply run for cover, and as time goes on, MK will become more dominant in his matchups.

@Afro - i'm glad you see the validity in my point. try to consider every player you know, and whether you feel they are up to speed on the metagame and playing ability, especially the MK players. then compare to the rest of the players outside of FL, and you'll come to your answer.

@ mkGmoney - reactions like that lead to nothing being worked out. even if it has been discussed some, it hasn't been for long, as Brawl isn't even a year old. things can't be solved without discussion. i hope you don't get jury duty any time soon...

 

[nevershootme]

it's gonna be a pandemic that people are gonna 2nd mk if their main fails.... it's a freaking easy button from stables

 

[dguy6789]

MK wins 1/3 of tournaments....

Instead of banning mk, make it legal to unplug a mk player's controller from the wii once a match, or make it mandatory for mk players to play using a solo wiimote.

 

[nevershootme]

MK wins 1/3 of tournaments....

Instead of banning mk, make it legal to unplug a mk player's controller from the wii once a match, or make it mandatory for mk players to play using a solo wiimote.

excellent handicap idea. well. turn on handicap though.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

just sheild grab him....
thats what i do lol

and if u think its cuz im ddd, then counterpick ddd, its not that bad, just learn tornado and sheildgrab everything else

 

[KOkingpin]

Funny. I dont see yoshi winning tournaments. Since both boards agree hes even with metaknight.

you see the thing is Yoshi has little trouble vs MK but he gets wrecked by Dedede, Snake, Falco, and G&W. Plus, how many Yoshi players do you know? Now think about how many MK players there are. Yoshi Fairs well in this one match up. Id like to see Azen playing Yoshi vs M2K playing MK and see how that match goes cause those two players are the best pretty much. That's about the only way i can think of to see the Match up.

I love Yoshi and but i still think its a pretty even match up. Pivot Grabbing is amazing vs MK. I may not play the best MKs around. Id like to play M2K with my Yoshi.

Dont ban a character. Its stupid and a waste of time. It only hurts the community this far into the life of the game. Cause there are alot of MK mains.

 

[Pritch]

I think M2K also brings up a good point, the top placers do not want him banned while the other players do. While this could be something that only happens in FL (i dont know if Azen wants him banned, or any other top players for that matter), it is still a good point. The good players have learned how to fight MK's, why cant everyone else?

Lee Martin over here in Louisiana mains mk (or used to main him, not sure anymore) and he supports the ban. For reference, he's the guy who got 3rd at the last HOBO, finishing behind only azen and m2k (and soundly beating azen's lucario - azen was forced to mk ditto him to win).

Personally, I'm indifferent to the issue, but I figured I'd point this out.

 

[ElDominio]

lolhappenedafter3years

 

[SN Viper]

lol at how wrong some of todays top players were back then.

 

[GofG]

dear god epic resurrection