Important Bidou Tech

[FireJuun]

B-sticking also works well for specials that accept multiple inputs. Examples for down-B include Dr. Mario / Luigi tornado and for side-B include Marth / Lucina dancing blades. For me, I find that max height Dr. tornado now takes exactly half the effort than it did when I simply "mashed" the special button.

This is definitely true. Bidou is not going to get you a huge jump in performance, especially in the short term. The thing is, bidou is a complete change in controls (and maybe controller), so the deeper you get into smash, the harder the change will be. I actually recommend setting bidou controls without using any bidou movement tricks at first and working on fundamentals with the new button layout.

It's a big time investment to change to bidou, so it's ok to discuss the specific techs as benefits/costs of bidou to decide whether it's even worth it to learn it for certain characters.

I second that you should take your time getting used to the control scheme with Bidou "off" first, then slowly work in some of the added tech when Bidou is "on." You have to be equally comfortable in and out of Bidou to use this tech effectively. Since part of smash is about your ability to mix up your techniques and remain unpredictable, I consider the switch to be a nice complement to my mixup game.

 

[lmntolp]

B-sticking also works well for specials that accept multiple inputs. Examples for down-B include Dr. Mario / Luigi tornado and for side-B include Marth / Lucina dancing blades. For me, I find that max height Dr. tornado now takes exactly half the effort than it did when I simply "mashed" the special button.

Wow, what's the input for max height tornado with B-stick? Does rolling the B-stick in a circle work? Also lol, I wonder how this could be applied to Monado Arts.

 

[FireJuun]

For Dr. Mario, you can get max height tornado by clicking B a total of 5 times (including the initial down-B input). It's actually a matter of timing, not mashing, and you want to click each time he is facing away from his starting position. I mentioned this in a post not long ago in the Dr. Mario Q&A forums, but that forum is a bit of a ghost town, sadly:

Dr. Mario turns a total of four complete circles when he does his Dr. Tornado. Each time he faces backwards vs his starting position, those frames are when you should be hitting B. If you count his initial Down B as input #1, you can reach max height by pressing B only 5 times total.

I consider Dr. Tornado to be similar to Marth's side B, since timing is far more important than brute-force button mashing. To practice, go to Hyrule Temple and stand on the left platform that connects the underground area from the main stage. In 1/4 speed, you should be able to reach the platform above in 5 clicks. Since this is a huge part of Dr. Mario's recovery, I strongly recommend practicing the timing. At normal speed, I'm able to keep the timing down by saying "1 AND 2 AND 3", clicking each time I speak.

Done normally, you will need to press and release your thumb from the button 5 times. With a B-stick, however, that same effort of movement can be spent moving the B-stick up and down (depress thumb = stick down, release thumb = stick up). So R stick down -> up -> down -> up -> down gets you the same inputs with half the thumb motion.

I mentioned this tech (and some others) in a thread not long ago in the Dr. Mario forums:

Pros (in Bidou):

• Turnaround Bairs, SHFF Bairs are easier to perform. RAR SH Bairs can be input more quickly
• Fast falls can be input without any loss in horizontal momentum
• TRC’s footstool combo is much easier to perfect. Especially the jab lock variation that uses sprint -> turnaround F-tilt -> F-tilt.
• You can mixup PP tilts and PP smashes to get a bit more reach
• You can instant dash attack at the ledge as a ledgeguard mixup

Pros (out of Bidou):

• Max height tornado requires ½ of the inputs vs usual (R stick down -> up -> down -> up -> down) and is now incredibly easy to master
• SH Wavebounce cape is a nice mixup that gives unexpected backwards momentum when approaching (SH -> L stick forward -> R stick back)
• You can also Wavebounce cape off the ledge (no SH) and immediately up special to get back. (still in testing...)
• Up special gives max height if you are pressing up with no side inputs. I find this is easier with R stick up

On a pro controller, rolling the B-stick unfortunately will not register as extra inputs, so you can't use it for smash DI to my knowledge. Also, instead of down -> up, you can also move the R stick side to side to register inputs, but this may accidentally wavebounce the move. I haven't done much testing with Skulk's monado arts, but my guess is that you can cancel an art in a similar fashion (tap special once, then R-stick down -> up....or left -> right).

 

[lmntolp]

On a pro controller, rolling the B-stick unfortunately will not register as extra inputs, so you can't use it for smash DI to my knowledge. Also, instead of down -> up, you can also move the R stick side to side to register inputs, but this may accidentally wavebounce the move. I haven't done much testing with Skulk's monado arts, but my guess is that you can cancel an art in a similar fashion (tap special once, then R-stick down -> up....or left -> right).

That's a really nice find on the tornado. The input is not fast at all, and I was able to replicate it on MK B and Wii Fit upB too. I confirmed on GC controller that you have to reset R-stick to neutral before it'll register Special again.

I also tested out Monado Arts out of curiosity.. and it's incredibly janky.

• To cycle through arts, I found Special -> R-stick up -> R-stick down -> .. etc. to be great for getting the right art quickly. Also, you can memorize which art ends in up or down, so a misinput is very unlikely. If you start R-stick in a direction other than up, you pivot/dash/crouch/fast fall just like in Bidou, and you can continue the cycle if you time it right. Also, some weird stuff might happen if you're using L-stick and R-stick at the same time, often stopping the cycle.
• It doesn't look like you can cancel the art with the B-stick at all, but if you keep pressing Special until it starts cycling, you can use B-stick to continue the cycle.
• You can use Bidou just fine with no art, but if you're holding Special while in an art, you'll cancel the art. The only way to stay in Bidou with an art (speed is nice with Bidou) is to always input something, anything, which will prevent the art from cancelling. I think holding up on L-stick works if you want to do nothing.
• While you're cycling arts, you are in Bidou mode. This is easiest to see if you try to cycle to a grayed out art. The B-stick can be used to do perfect pivots and other Bidou things even without holding down Special until the cycle ends
• Something funny I was able to do was B -> R-stick forward -> R-stick forward repeatedly, which makes you dash trot forward, cycling one art each time. If you use L-stick forward to cancel the dash trot, you can then reverse and start dash trotting in the other direction.

I have no idea what can be done with these options because I don't play Shulk at all. There are definitely some unique interactions here, but not really in a good way. Maybe I'll put this up on the Shulk boards to see if they find anything useful in this.

 

[McZaxon]

Well it's an old tech. I don't see the big smashers using it or even mentioning it. It looks like it does make things easier to do, but the whole switching the button layout thing turned me off.

 

[DeaDea]

The reason no big smashers are using it is 1. It sucks or 2. Your skill level will drop for potentially weeks or months which big smashers cannot afford to do or just dont want to do it. That is multiple missed tournaments and lots of effort sinked in just for something that has not be proven to actually be worth it. Ontop of that, there is mo guarantee it will actually benefit you in tournaments as its purely hypothetic at the moment. Thats why Zer0 mentioned that all it takes is one player to turn up and do well at a major with Bidou and it could take off - because after that it will become clear that its worth the effort and missed tournaments.

 

[GusTurbo]

New bidou video from the original Japanese creator:

 

[GalaxyMagnum]

Question for everyone experimenting:

Has anyone else noticed a slight lag while using a wired (plugged into the Wii U) pro controller? Combos seem a little trickier to pull off. I'm also missing a lot of landing bairs with multiple characters. I'm hoping it's just a matter of getting acclimated, but I wasn't sure if the switch-differences between GC and Pro controllers had anything to do with it.

 

[Eugene Wang]

We know that Bidou variations exist with Special (C stick to special, hold down B), Smash (C stick to smash, hold down A and B, with this input for smash attacks turned on), and Tilt (C stick to tile, hold down A). Can someone check the following and see if the remaining C stick inputs work for Bidou?

• C stick to grab, hold down attack and shield
• C stick to shield, hold down shield
• C stick to jump, hold down jump, tap jump off

 

[drakeirving]

Question for everyone experimenting:

Has anyone else noticed a slight lag while using a wired (plugged into the Wii U) pro controller? Combos seem a little trickier to pull off. I'm also missing a lot of landing bairs with multiple characters. I'm hoping it's just a matter of getting acclimated, but I wasn't sure if the switch-differences between GC and Pro controllers had anything to do with it.

Pro controller has only a USB charge connection; there is no data going over USB and so is exactly the same as playing wireless.

 

[Respect38]

MSC did a short follow-up video on bidou. Item drop ledge trump might be interesting for item users?
Also, he mentions the trump wall jump punishes, but his reasoning for them was that you get to keep your double jump. I thought that doing trump wall jump punishes came out faster than doing regular trump punishes, but he didn't mention that. It certainly looks visually like that is the case when he compared trump wall jump punishes to whiffing a punish with regular trumps, but that might have been because it was an intentional slow example.

 

[lmntolp]

Good job MSC for basically translating the 2nd Japanese video so quickly. I didn't think dash dancing and crouch cancelling would be this impactful in this game. Still situational, but this the first thing that actually convinces me that PP crouch is better than PP alone, and it's a lot easier with Bidou.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

I've got some tips for anyone looking to make the transition to Bidou using a gamecube controller. This is pasted from the description of my YouTube video: https://youtu.be/ZIqEyzxZMx8

I use a gamecube controller, with the only differences in control being L set to special and C Stick set to Specials.

To get started getting used to Bidou, change your controls so that the C Stick is set to special. Get used to being able to use specials with the C Stick (and take advantage of it, you can do some cool things with it), and get used to the fact that you can no longer use aerials/smash attacks with it. Don't worry about Bidou at all during this stage, be focused exclusively on the fact that your C Stick is now set to B moves. Don't even have the shoulder button set to special yet.

While getting used to B Sticking, switch back to your normal controls every once in a while and play a few games. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but I promise you that it will help.

Dedicate a good 5 days to B Sticking.

You want to bring in the Bidou button once you're completely comfortable with B Sticking.

For this next part, /completely/, and I MEAN completely ignore the things that you can do with Bidou. Pretend it doesn't even exist. At this point you want to get used to the fact that you're going to be holding L (or whatever controller button you picked) a LOT. Make it become second nature.

Get used to letting go of the Bidou Button, doing your specials, then pressing it again before your special ends. This is really, REALLY important. Be really comfortable offstage while holding down the Bidou Button, letting it go, doing the special, then resuming. I cannot emphasize enough just how important it is to make when you hold down the Bidou Button second nature.

I treat the Bidou Button kind of like L cancelling in melee, except instead of letting go when you land, you hold it down. I release the Bidou Button every time I jump, unless my intention is to land quickly (for example, after a short hop or a short hop aerial). If I'm offstage and I plan on going to the ledge, my first priority is to let go of the Bidou Button and keep it un-pressed until I get on the ledge.

The prime time to activate Bidou is when you land, by Autocancelling or doing a low lag move. When I die, I let go of Bidou to save my finger some energy. When I drop from the pedestal, I airdodge right before I hit the ground and reactivate Bidou. I main Marth, and when I need to activate Bidou in a pinch, I land with only the first hit of nair. Be sure to hold the Bidou button right after the nair, because if you do it after you land, you might buffer a special on accident.

I cannot stress enough just how important letting go and re-pressing the Bidou button is to getting to use this. COMPLETELY IGNORE any tech you can do with bidou until you are ENTIRELY used to this new, arguably radical change in controls.

 

[DeaDea]

Why do you let go of the shoulder special button everytime you jump? Isn't better to just ALWAYS have it held down and when you want to do a special just let go and press again?

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Why do you let go of the shoulder special button everytime you jump? Isn't better to just ALWAYS have it held down and when you want to do a special just let go and press again?

The idea is to be prepared. The way I describe might not exactly be ideal but it's worked the best for me. When I'm offstage, I go full survival mode and not having the button held down is one less thing to think about. Saved me plenty of times.

 

[vegeta18]

im looking to experiment with bidou using a gamecube controller and c stick for smashes, is that possible what would my control layout look like?

I would consider using c stick set to specials, but then you lose control in the air dont you? i dont want that, i want to be able to move my character while throwing out air attacks. Also my last concern is how would i do jump cancelled up smashes or up specials oos? Wouldnt bidou require me to turn off tap jump and have neither shoulder button set to jump. Would it still be possible to to a jc up special oos?

 

[brady_boy_26]

i know i will never use bidou because i would have to give up tilt stick and i just cant do that

 

[Eugene Wang]

im looking to experiment with bidou using a gamecube controller and c stick for smashes, is that possible what would my control layout look like?

I would consider using c stick set to specials, but then you lose control in the air dont you? i dont want that, i want to be able to move my character while throwing out air attacks. Also my last concern is how would i do jump cancelled up smashes or up specials oos? Wouldnt bidou require me to turn off tap jump and have neither shoulder button set to jump. Would it still be possible to to a jc up special oos?

If you're going with Smash bidou, you'll have to dedicate two shoulder buttons to A and B, rather than just one to B. I don't recommend this, since it handicaps C-stick aerials and prevents you from using aerials while the Bidou buttons are held. But whatever you like.

It takes some practice, but you can activate Special Bidou, flick the C stick, and press attack to do an aerial in an arbitrary direction with only a minimal change in momentum. And about the jump: no, you should have tap jump on and/or set a button to jump. Otherwise you'll cripple your air game and your recovery. Fundamentals first!

 

[vegeta18]

can you set the dpad to specials for bidou instead of the c stick? would that work? that way you could still keep your c stick on tilt

 

[Unix]

Please support and motivate the guy to upload more videos.

We need it! Or no?

This is seen to be going well, and he has worked his first guide. UPDATE: Guide 2

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Hi all. I've been using bidou a lot. I haven't been able to have much practice with it, because my Wii U has been broken. I've had to rely on occasionally borrowing it from a friend of mine. I haven't gotten much practice using bidou, and I'm already at a point where I'm completely comfortable playing with these funky controls. The hardest part is applying it, and I'm doing a decent job. I'm not going back to normal controls, it'd be counterproductive at this point.

I'm also working on a fancy high-production-value guide on how to get yourself accustomed to using bidou.

Anyways, I've got some videos of me actually using and applying bidou.

(Naturally, the uploader mostly uploaded clips where I get rekt, but I show some good uses in there.)

And a video from my channel:

 

[Megamang]

Ok, so most Bidou things are possible without the scheme, right?


Is the ledge drop item trump (where you fall off the ledge while zdropping, then trump immediately) possible on a normal control scheme?

 

[GusTurbo]

There's a bidou Discord channel, for those who are curious: https://discord.gg/0uzlyEZ9xzHs4oh8

 

[Eugene Wang]

Has Sol made a decision about Bidou yet?

 

[GusTurbo]

Trela won a low tier tournament with his bidou Shulk.

Matches:
https://www.twitch.tv/preludetosmash/v/63757903?t=05h15m04s

https://www.twitch.tv/preludetosmash/v/63757903?t=06h50m50s

 

[Glitchy_]

Just an interesting thought... If using Bidou you can in fact negate pretty much all minus-points of Tap-Jump on?

1.: Accidental Jumping when Shield-tilting/ Shield-tilting slower (use both sticks)
2.: The accidental 2.Jump input when using Up-B (just use the C-stick)
3.: The accidental 2.Jump input when using Up-air (use C-Stick + Attack Button (instead of Left-Stick + Attack Button))


And about the up tilts.... no idea about them..

 

[lmntolp]

Just an interesting thought... If using Bidou you can in fact negate pretty much all minus-points of Tap-Jump on?

1.: Accidental Jumping when Shield-tilting/ Shield-tilting slower (use both sticks)
2.: The accidental 2.Jump input when using Up-B (just use the C-stick)
3.: The accidental 2.Jump input when using Up-air (use C-Stick + Attack Button (instead of Left-Stick + Attack Button))


And about the up tilts.... no idea about them..

I use tap jump on and bidou, and I can confirm that bidou does this and so much more!

Holding R-stick in ANY direction completely turns tap jump off when bidou is active. If you want an easy utilt or falling uair, just hold R-stick somewhere then input your move (I put Attack on Z). To me this is especially useful for PP utilt because I can just hold R-stick after the PP.

Double-sticking is possible with this combination, so you can do fast SH aerials. This is because moving R-stick anywhere but up during jumpsquat cancels the tap jump so you short hop. Difficult of frame perfect short hop uair is a complaint I've been hearing about bidou, but with tamp jump on, you can do it easily with: hold L-stick up -> R-stick anywhere but up -> Attack. You can move L-stick when you press Attack to do other SH aerials.

 

[Glitchy_]

Oh and do you use the Right-stick for air-attacks?
If you press attack at the exact same time you tilt the Right-stick an Air attack comes out... since the input is just 1 frame long, no movement will be influenced.

 

[GusTurbo]

Slightly corny video, but it shows off applications of what I've temporarily named "sliding platform drop." Sliding platform drop bairs are an effective tool for ZSS, for example.

 

[Xpwnage123]

I apologize in advance for any typos since I'm on my phone. Now that I have that out of the way, I'd like to make my main point: If Bidou gains any sort of momentum in the competitive scene, it will be patched out.

As we know, Sakurai has a history of wanting to keep Smash Bros casual. Brawl was a direct response to Melee's hardcore competitive scene, and thus we got a floaty, slower paced, version of Smash that required much less of a learning curve to get into competitively. Although some advanced techniques such as chain grabs and the DACUS were discovered, the technical ability the game required still paled in comparison to Melee.

Fast forward to Smash 4. People may argue that Sakurai has taken steps to cater towards the competitive scene by promoting it as an esport, giving us For Glory, releasing balance patches, and making the game a bit faster paced, but the design philosophy has been pretty similar, if not possibly more extreme. The number of advanced techniques has been even further diminished. Chain grabs and most infinites are gone, as are edge hogs. And what happens when one is discovered? It's patched out. Greninja's Shadow Sneak cancel was exciting only to get removed. The DACUS, a crucial movement option in Brawl, was also patched out when it was rediscovered. Peach's footstool uair infinite was also removed, as well as many other zero to deaths being made very hard to pull off, such as Metaknight's uair to up b, ZSS's uair to up b, and Bayonetta's pretty much everything. Basically any sort of technical, "hardcore" element has been removed. It's also worth noting, that a lot of these were removed right after Sakurai himself witnessed them in a tournament (i.e. Metaknight and ZSS's up air to up b).

The truth is, the design philosophy of the balancing team has been to make Smash 4 a "Casually Competitive" game. That might sound oxymoronic, but by that I mean they want the competitive scene to be accessible. The game takes nowhere near the hardcore effort of games like Street Fighter or Tekken where players will have to take hours learning fundamental combos, and even more time mastering a character. Instead a lot of the gameplay is dumbed down, and whenever a technique is discovered that might make the game significantly harder to master, or more unfun, it's removed.

If we look at Bidou, it's very clear that it was not an intentional game design. Rather it's something that abuses a flaw in the game mechanics, much like the wavedash in Melee. Not only that, but Bidou takes significantly more effort than the wavedash to master, as you have to alter your entire control scheme, undoing potential years of muscle memory. Can you honestly see Nintendo pushing Smash 4 as an esport when every person will be pigeonholed into using a very particular control scheme on a specific controller that abuses flawed game mechanics? I certainly can't.

 

[GusTurbo]

I apologize in advance for any typos since I'm on my phone. Now that I have that out of the way, I'd like to make my main point: If Bidou gains any sort of momentum in the competitive scene, it will be patched out.

As we know, Sakurai has a history of wanting to keep Smash Bros casual. Brawl was a direct response to Melee's hardcore competitive scene, and thus we got a floaty, slower paced, version of Smash that required much less of a learning curve to get into competitively. Although some advanced techniques such as chain grabs and the DACUS were discovered, the technical ability the game required still paled in comparison to Melee.

Fast forward to Smash 4. People may argue that Sakurai has taken steps to cater towards the competitive scene by promoting it as an esport, giving us For Glory, releasing balance patches, and making the game a bit faster paced, but the design philosophy has been pretty similar, if not possibly more extreme. The number of advanced techniques has been even further diminished. Chain grabs and most infinites are gone, as are edge hogs. And what happens when one is discovered? It's patched out. Greninja's Shadow Sneak cancel was exciting only to get removed. The DACUS, a crucial movement option in Brawl, was also patched out when it was rediscovered. Peach's footstool uair infinite was also removed, as well as many other zero to deaths being made very hard to pull off, such as Metaknight's uair to up b, ZSS's uair to up b, and Bayonetta's pretty much everything. Basically any sort of technical, "hardcore" element has been removed. It's also worth noting, that a lot of these were removed right after Sakurai himself witnessed them in a tournament (i.e. Metaknight and ZSS's up air to up b).

The truth is, the design philosophy of the balancing team has been to make Smash 4 a "Casually Competitive" game. That might sound oxymoronic, but by that I mean they want the competitive scene to be accessible. The game takes nowhere near the hardcore effort of games like Street Fighter or Tekken where players will have to take hours learning fundamental combos, and even more time mastering a character. Instead a lot of the gameplay is dumbed down, and whenever a technique is discovered that might make the game significantly harder to master, or more unfun, it's removed.

If we look at Bidou, it's very clear that it was not an intentional game design. Rather it's something that abuses a flaw in the game mechanics, much like the wavedash in Melee. Not only that, but Bidou takes significantly more effort than the wavedash to master, as you have to alter your entire control scheme, undoing potential years of muscle memory. Can you honestly see Nintendo pushing Smash 4 as an esport when every person will be pigeonholed into using a very particular control scheme on a specific controller that abuses flawed game mechanics? I certainly can't.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think you're off on some things. I don't think ZSS and Metaknight's ladder combos were especially hardcore, and neither were Bayonetta's easy-bake combos. Neither was Diddy's hoo-hah. These combos got nerfed for being too easy to pull off. As such, I don't think they're an apt comparison to bidou.

Another thing is that bidou would be more difficult to remove than simple combos and movements. Bidou works because of fundamental functions of the input system. Setting c-stick to Special would likely have to be removed.

Last, bidou does not actually require the Pro Controller.

I think bidou is here to stay. Even if it does get patched, it's a fun diversion for now.

 

[Horseketchup]

I apologize in advance for any typos since I'm on my phone. Now that I have that out of the way, I'd like to make my main point: If Bidou gains any sort of momentum in the competitive scene, it will be patched out.

As we know, Sakurai has a history of wanting to keep Smash Bros casual. Brawl was a direct response to Melee's hardcore competitive scene, and thus we got a floaty, slower paced, version of Smash that required much less of a learning curve to get into competitively. Although some advanced techniques such as chain grabs and the DACUS were discovered, the technical ability the game required still paled in comparison to Melee.

Fast forward to Smash 4. People may argue that Sakurai has taken steps to cater towards the competitive scene by promoting it as an esport, giving us For Glory, releasing balance patches, and making the game a bit faster paced, but the design philosophy has been pretty similar, if not possibly more extreme. The number of advanced techniques has been even further diminished. Chain grabs and most infinites are gone, as are edge hogs. And what happens when one is discovered? It's patched out. Greninja's Shadow Sneak cancel was exciting only to get removed. The DACUS, a crucial movement option in Brawl, was also patched out when it was rediscovered. Peach's footstool uair infinite was also removed, as well as many other zero to deaths being made very hard to pull off, such as Metaknight's uair to up b, ZSS's uair to up b, and Bayonetta's pretty much everything. Basically any sort of technical, "hardcore" element has been removed. It's also worth noting, that a lot of these were removed right after Sakurai himself witnessed them in a tournament (i.e. Metaknight and ZSS's up air to up b).

The truth is, the design philosophy of the balancing team has been to make Smash 4 a "Casually Competitive" game. That might sound oxymoronic, but by that I mean they want the competitive scene to be accessible. The game takes nowhere near the hardcore effort of games like Street Fighter or Tekken where players will have to take hours learning fundamental combos, and even more time mastering a character. Instead a lot of the gameplay is dumbed down, and whenever a technique is discovered that might make the game significantly harder to master, or more unfun, it's removed.

If we look at Bidou, it's very clear that it was not an intentional game design. Rather it's something that abuses a flaw in the game mechanics, much like the wavedash in Melee. Not only that, but Bidou takes significantly more effort than the wavedash to master, as you have to alter your entire control scheme, undoing potential years of muscle memory. Can you honestly see Nintendo pushing Smash 4 as an esport when every person will be pigeonholed into using a very particular control scheme on a specific controller that abuses flawed game mechanics? I certainly can't.

The amount of tech that has been removed is probably like no more than 3-5% of the total tech in the game. DACUS, a handful of glitches, and some grab/footstool infinites were removed. Compare that to the hundreds of techs which haven't been touched...and yes I've actually tried to compile and count them and gave up at around 250ish, and that was with a pretty strint definition of tech and was almost a year ago at this point. There's still tons of techs, even in a game that supposedly has barely any tech. There's probably like 400+ techs in this game if you're using such a loose definition of "tech", though it's a huge stretch to consider combos and setups to be tech. Most ladder combos weren't really all that hard anyway, I mean MK and ZSS's ladder combos are still doable now but they're just much harder to pull off now. So why aren't you praising Sakurai for increasing the skill requirement for the ladder combos?

Nerfing ladder combos isn't removing tech anyway though, otherwise you could also say that tons of tech was added with all of the throw combos and other setups that were patched in for many characters. Most infinites are pretty lame on principal though. There's usually very little interaction going on, and no matter how hard they are execution-wise they end up turning into a single-player game for its entire duration. You shouldn't be able to land a safe move like a jab or safe aerial and then get a bunch of guaranteed percent and an edgeguard/kill from across the stage.

Tech is more interesting when it can be applied in diverse ways, and have to be situationally applied in a unique manner. Wavebouncing/B-reversing, dancetrotting, perfect pivoting, 2 frame punishes, ledge denials, these are the type of techs that don't revolve around just landing one thing and following a consistent timing like a rhythm game. That's the kind of tech that isn't usually fun to watch or to deal with, because you often get a skewed risk/reward, like with Wobbling for example. The important thing is the type of options and freedom it opens up, not simply that it's difficult. Perfect pivoting isn't cool because it's difficult, it's cool because it allows for ground attacks to be performed directly out of movement. It's not something where you just hit a trigger and perform your pre-practiced inputs.

Difficult =/= good design, and tech =/= good. The overwhelming majority of techs haven't been touched, so your post is just grasping at straws. The whole idea of Sakurai just patching out all of this tech is so overblown, but in any case most of the stuff he's removed was healthier for the balance of the game and led to less centralizing tactics and simplistic tactics. The only real important, interesting tech he removed was DACUS, and even that wasn't as originally useful as it was in Brawl anyway (less of a slide).

Bidou I think is very unlikely to be patched out, mainly because it will always remain niche and is really a control scheme over anything else. You have to give up a lot to use it, like tilt stick, and precision for spacing aerials. It's not on nearly the level of something like a wavedash, and Sakurai patching out a movement tech like DACUS is the exception, and not even close to the rule.

 

[Xpwnage123]

I can see where you're coming from, but I think you're off on some things. I don't think ZSS and Metaknight's ladder combos were especially hardcore, and neither were Bayonetta's easy-bake combos. Neither was Diddy's hoo-hah. These combos got nerfed for being too easy to pull off. As such, I don't think they're an apt comparison to bidou.

Most ladder combos weren't really all that hard anyway, I mean MK and ZSS's ladder combos are still doable now but they're just much harder to pull off now. So why aren't you praising Sakurai for increasing the skill requirement for the ladder combos?

No I definitely think the removal of ladders was a good thing. Too easy to pull off. My point is they were considered unfun, which is why they removed. Adopting Bidou could be considered similarly unfun if the meta went in that direction. Also, I know they're not techniques, they're combos. I just brought them up to show how there is a link between what Sakurai sees and what gets patched. He went to a tournament where he felt those combos were abused and they were promptly patched after.

But you guys definitely raise some good points. I didn't realize how hard it would be to patch, but didn't they have to change the way the game processed inputs in order to get Ryu in the game?

It's also worth noting that some of the techs you mentioned are intentionally included. For instance, B reversing is mentioned in the loading screen. I wasn't trying to say that Sakurai patches all tech, just the ones that are both unintentional and have a big affect on the meta. The DACUS was pretty influential in Brawl and unintentional so he got rid of it. And before you say it wasn't, I got by competitively with Snake by pretty much abusing DACUS and grenades. The reason a lot of the minor techs you mentioned aren't patched out is because they aren't particularly useful or they are intentional. I'm not saying Bidou is guaranteed to be patched, since we have no idea how useful it will be in the future. That's why prefaced my assertion with saying "if it gains momentum." But I think if it becomes prominent it is much more likely because it is: unintentional, a potential barrier to competitive play, and arguably unfun.

 

[GusTurbo]

Thanks for the discussion. All we can do now is wait and see. Those who want to try bidou will do it, and if it does happen to get patched out, then so be it. I'm going to use bidou because I find it fun and useful.

 

[Xpwnage123]

Thanks for the discussion. All we can do now is wait and see. Those who want to try bidou will do it, and if it does happen to get patched out, then so be it. I'm going to use bidou because I find it fun and useful.

Hey no problem. Glad we can have this discussion. I guess part of the reason I brought it up is that I'm reluctant to learn it, so I wanted to gauge the likelihood of it still being around, and see whether people share my concerns.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

But you guys definitely raise some good points. I didn't realize how hard it would be to patch, but didn't they have to change the way the game processed inputs in order to get Ryu in the game?

That is correct, they literally had to change the way the game accepted inputs for Ryu specifically.

Interestingly enough, melee processes inputs differently than smash 4 does. I'm pretty sure that if you could set the C stick to B moves in melee, something like bidou wouldn't work.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Evening, ladies. I apologize for the double post, but I have another bidou video I'd like to share. At this point I'm able to apply bidou in practical ways without a whole lot of thinking, I'm on my way to total integration.

Interestingly enough, I can switch between a normal control scheme and bidou without any problems whatsoever, which is interesting. Same goes for switching between sm4sh and melee.

I'm also starting a dedicated bidou channel in the near future. It will cover things like character specific bidou tech, character overviews for using bidou, match examples with analyses that will highlight places that showed good use of bidou, or highlight a place where using bidou would have possibly saved them, which charters you should use bidou with, all sorts of stuff. I really want bidou to become a thing, and I want there to be a decent resource to get people into it, and maybe motivate some people to start.

Our first video is instruction on how to retrain your muscle memory so you can start implementing bidou as quickly as possible.

The production value is similar to that of MySmashCorner, perhaps a little bit less. The voice guy is great, though!

I had a really good bidou video with Marth, but the game told me it was too long. :/

 

[Katuro117]

Ugh.

Evening, ladies. I apologize for the double post, but I have another bidou video I'd like to share. At this point I'm able to apply bidou in practical ways without a whole lot of thinking, I'm on my way to total integration.

Interestingly enough, I can switch between a normal control scheme and bidou without any problems whatsoever, which is interesting. Same goes for switching between sm4sh and melee.

I'm also starting a dedicated bidou channel in the near future. It will cover things like character specific bidou tech, character overviews for using bidou, match examples with analyses that will highlight places that showed good use of bidou, or highlight a place where using bidou would have possibly saved them, which charters you should use bidou with, all sorts of stuff. I really want bidou to become a thing, and I want there to be a decent resource to get people into it, and maybe motivate some people to start.

Our first video is instruction on how to retrain your muscle memory so you can start implementing bidou as quickly as possible.

The production value is similar to that of MySmashCorner, perhaps a little bit less. The voice guy is great, though!

I had a really good bidou video with Marth, but the game told me it was too long. :/

This is really cool, and right up my alley. I have not learned any real tech, I know how to play well, but within the constraints of the game. I look forward to the bidou channel.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Misinfo is abundant here

I apologize in advance for any typos since I'm on my phone. Now that I have that out of the way, I'd like to make my main point: If Bidou gains any sort of momentum in the competitive scene, it will be patched out.

As we know, Sakurai has a history of wanting to keep Smash Bros casual. Brawl was a direct response to Melee's hardcore competitive scene, and thus we got a floaty, slower paced, version of Smash that required much less of a learning curve to get into competitively. Although some advanced techniques such as chain grabs and the DACUS were discovered, the technical ability the game required still paled in comparison to Melee.

Nah, brawl was just a capitalization on the casual market of the woo. We didn't even exist in sakurai's mind during the development of brawl.

Fast forward to Smash 4. People may argue that Sakurai has taken steps to cater towards the competitive scene by promoting it as an esport, giving us For Glory, releasing balance patches, and making the game a bit faster paced, but the design philosophy has been pretty similar, if not possibly more extreme. The number of advanced techniques has been even further diminished. Chain grabs and most infinites are gone, as are edge hogs. And what happens when one is discovered? It's patched out. Greninja's Shadow Sneak cancel was exciting only to get removed. The DACUS, a crucial movement option in Brawl, was also patched out when it was rediscovered. Peach's footstool uair infinite was also removed, as well as many other zero to deaths being made very hard to pull off, such as Metaknight's uair to up b, ZSS's uair to up b, and Bayonetta's pretty much everything. Basically any sort of technical, "hardcore" element has been removed. It's also worth noting, that a lot of these were removed right after Sakurai himself witnessed them in a tournament (i.e. Metaknight and ZSS's up air to up b).

Sakurai doesn't like extreme punish games. None of those things were really hard to do anyway. Shadow sneak cancel is still in too. DACUS was a glitch and in sakurai's eyes, those don't deserve to be in a game. Infinities and chain grabs are pretty bas when it's easy to do them, and their existence is hardly beneficial to a game (outside of signs of looseness and freedom, which is always good).

The truth is, the design philosophy of the balancing team has been to make Smash 4 a "Casually Competitive" game. That might sound oxymoronic, but by that I mean they want the competitive scene to be accessible. The game takes nowhere near the hardcore effort of games like Street Fighter or Tekken where players will have to take hours learning fundamental combos, and even more time mastering a character. Instead a lot of the gameplay is dumbed down, and whenever a technique is discovered that might make the game significantly harder to master, or more unfun, it's removed.

SFV has actually gone back to the basics, where lab time and stuff is almost unnecessary. Tekken by nature will always need more lab time than most fighters.

If we look at Bidou, it's very clear that it was not an intentional game design. Rather it's something that abuses a flaw in the game mechanics, much like the wavedash in Melee. Not only that, but Bidou takes significantly more effort than the wavedash to master, as you have to alter your entire control scheme, undoing potential years of muscle memory. Can you honestly see Nintendo pushing Smash 4 as an esport when every person will be pigeonholed into using a very particular control scheme on a specific controller that abuses flawed game mechanics? I certainly can't.

Bidou is a great technique to use, but it's definitely not clear how it's gonna end up in the meta.

 

[moofpi]

Here's some matches of Captain L's (#2 in BC) bidou Pikachu in tournament. It's pretty slick.
vs Big D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMT-ZlLXpc4
vs Focus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UwqxKhuPoo
vs Locus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618HORiG_cQ
vs Focus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWfrc7ArV9k