Important Bidou Tech

[GusTurbo]

Here's some matches of Captain L's (#2 in BC) bidou Pikachu in tournament. It's pretty slick.
vs Big D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMT-ZlLXpc4
vs Focus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UwqxKhuPoo
vs Locus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618HORiG_cQ
vs Focus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWfrc7ArV9k

Impressive stuff. I hadn't thought about how Pikachu could benefit from bidou.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So I am back from a tournament, I met one guy who used bidou pretty well.
He lacked fundamentals as he played pretty repetitive and didn't get as many reads despite falling on the same trick, but bidou alone made amazing things, the movement freedom bidou provides is so much it becomes a new, quicker and safer spacing option, makes the opponent whiff and the punish window is bigger with that.
At this point I'm pretty confident that a top-level player mastering this will make more than just a splash in the scene.

 

[GusTurbo]

What kinds of things was this person doing? Sounds like it left an impression.

 

[Matt11111]

I feel like the best people to pick Bidou up are the people who have never played Smash before. You could introduce them to Bidou, and they would get good with that control scheme.

 

[Machii]

I feel like the best people to pick Bidou up are the people who have never played Smash before. You could introduce them to Bidou, and they would get good with that control scheme.

A lot of people make that suggestion but from my experience anyone can pick it up in a months time of practice. What is required is a good controller. I forget the company but they make gamecube controllers that register as pro-controllers, complete with both Z shoulders.

 

[Matt11111]

A lot of people make that suggestion but from my experience anyone can pick it up in a months time of practice. What is required is a good controller. I forget the company but they make gamecube controllers that register as pro-controllers, complete with both Z shoulders.

The ProCube controller? I've heard of it, but I'm not sure who made it either.

 

[killerwaffles05]

Im pretty new to the smash scene and this concept of play is really interesting to me im just curious what are your thoughts on the bidou play style? also if you guys have any tips that would be great as well.

 

[GusTurbo]

I have fully integrated it into my play as ZSS, and I would say that the downsides do not outweigh the upsides. I think it's worth trying, but the key is to make sure you understand fundamentals first. It won't automatically make you better.

Here's a technique that is possible without bidou, but is easier with it:

 

[GusTurbo]

ESAM recently picked up bidou, for Pikachu. He's been streaming bidou practice over the last week. Seems like Pikachu gets some real benefits from bidou:

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

There are so many instances in a match where l see two players so close to each other that they're practically kissing and the defender in the situation will generally roll away. Pivot-pending, of course, wouldn't Bidou PPs give you the ability to safely escape this situation? Like, just PP back and jab or whatever your character uses to poke and you're more or less safe. Using it out of shield sounds like a good move, too. Has this already been discussed and people aren't comfortable with it or am l onto something? This type of movement makes me feel so safe, sometimes.

 

[lmntolp]

ESAM recently picked up bidou, for Pikachu. He's been streaming bidou practice over the last week. Seems like Pikachu gets some real benefits from bidou:

Wow, this is great to hear as a Pikachu main and bidou user. First Captain L and now ESAM. The video basically mirrors the benefits I've been seeing for Pikachu, but I've yet to try that approaching dtilt.

There are so many instances in a match where l see two players so close to each other that they're practically kissing and the defender in the situation will generally roll away. Pivot-pending, of course, wouldn't Bidou PPs give you the ability to safely escape this situation? Like, just PP back and jab or whatever your character uses to poke and you're more or less safe. Using it out of shield sounds like a good move, too. Has this already been discussed and people aren't comfortable with it or am l onto something? This type of movement makes me feel so safe, sometimes.

You can't PP recklessly because it has a set duration before you can act and a small distance traveled. If you are point blank range, there are many moves that can hit you regardless of whether you PP back or not, like a dash attack or fsmash. I would prefer to use PP to get from barely in range to barely out of range, which is pretty situational. Out of shield, PP is at least 7 frames slower than a roll or spotdodge because you drop shield for it.

 

[MagnumMuskox]

I would prefer to use PP to get from barely in range to barely out of range, which is pretty situational.

I like to PP crouch -> instant Dash attack (right stick forward, attack). But you have to know your opponent's spacing REALLY well.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Out of shield, PP is at least 7 frames slower than a roll or spotdodge because you drop shield for it.

Yeah, you're right. l was poking around and it's also kinda inconsistent if you're under pressure. That's the who argument over not using it period, though, so...

How about just indirect pressure, like player positioning? l see a lot of back rolls just when the opponent's kinda close, but it looks like there isn't much they can do to attack that can't be reacted to. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnU0mZD6hk8 at 1:55, Reflex pokes with a dtilt, and Abadango rolls back. In that situation, why wouldn't a PP back work?

 

[lmntolp]

Yeah, you're right. l was poking around and it's also kinda inconsistent if you're under pressure. That's the who argument over not using it period, though, so...

How about just indirect pressure, like player positioning? l see a lot of back rolls just when the opponent's kinda close, but it looks like there isn't much they can do to attack that can't be reacted to. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnU0mZD6hk8 at 1:55, Reflex pokes with a dtilt, and Abadango rolls back. In that situation, why wouldn't a PP back work?

Yea that roll backwards was worse than PP if Abadango knew there would be a grab, but if you think that way, a dodge would've been optimal, and Abadango did get the punish in the end. If Abadango did PP a lot in the match, Reflex could've learned and just ran forward more or used a dash attack, so you never know.

If you're saying people should use PP more than 0% of the time, then yes I agree they aren't doing it enough. I think it's hard to subconsciously make that precise input and decision in a tournament without bidou. The penalty for messing up a PP is very bad, because you'll dashdance in place or towards the opponent lol. With bidou I can see people not missing PP even under pressure, so then it's much easier to use it on reaction/instinct.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Yea that roll backwards was worse than PP if Abadango knew there would be a grab, but if you think that way, a dodge would've been optimal, and Abadango did get the punish in the end. If Abadango did PP a lot in the match, Reflex could've learned and just ran forward more or used a dash attack, so you never know.

If you're saying people should use PP more than 0% of the time, then yes I agree they aren't doing it enough. I think it's hard to subconsciously make that precise input and decision in a tournament without bidou. The penalty for messing up a PP is very bad, because you'll dashdance in place or towards the opponent lol. With bidou I can see people not missing PP even under pressure, so then it's much easier to use it on reaction/instinct.

But it's still something. Another option to use is another option the opponent has to adapt to. And l've honestly flubbed Bidou PPs against my friends before, so.....

BUT IT'S STILL SOMETHING

 

[GusTurbo]

When did this thread get tagged 'Important'?

 

[Shaya]

Apparently me last week.
I'm tending towards threads focused on mechanics as 'important' over 'meta' which trends towards discussions/analysing/somewhat subjective.

I probably need new thread tags~

 

[GusTurbo]

Ah, I see. The real test of bidou's viability will be ESAM at EVO. I think we are still in a "wait and see" period.

 

[Horseketchup]

Wait so was ESAM using bidou at Xanadu this week? I heard he picked it up but wasn't sure if it was tournament ready or anything.

 

[Machii]

Wait so was ESAM using bidou at Xanadu this week? I heard he picked it up but wasn't sure if it was tournament ready or anything.

Judging from the video linked, his Bidou looks developed enough to implement in a competitive setting. The only reason he wouldn't is if Tournaments ban wireless controllers. ESAM might be able to use Bidou on a standard GC controller, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Glitchy_]

Any thoughts on why I can move?
I thought the input was only 1 Frame long...

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

Any thoughts on why I can move?
I thought the input was only 1 Frame long...

Umm. While that's basically no movement, l guess it's because it's still a directional input, and it probably reads as the lightest possible movement in the air?

 

[Glitchy_]

Umm. While that's basically no movement, l guess it's because it's still a directional input, and it probably reads as the lightest possible movement in the air?

The thing that disturbs me is that I thought
1. This input is only 1 frame long
2. 1 frame inputs do not affect the movement in the air.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

So, you've tried doing single frame inputs on a control stick and succeeded (Who knows, you might've and l'm just being rude)? And l thought a directional input in the air just started a motion and the momentum would carry you?

 

[GusTurbo]

Judging from the video linked, his Bidou looks developed enough to implement in a competitive setting. The only reason he wouldn't is if Tournaments ban wireless controllers. ESAM might be able to use Bidou on a standard GC controller, but I wouldn't bet on it.

He uses GC controller, as do most people who have been seriously integrating it into their play. There's a big misconception that a pro controller is somehow necessary.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

He uses GC controller, as do most people who have been seriously integrating it into their play. There's a big misconception that a pro controller is somehow necessary.

All you need is a second stick (or the d-pad, maybe????), a button you don't mind holding down, and room for the other buttons.

 

[Glitchy_]

So, you've tried doing single frame inputs on a control stick and succeeded (Who knows, you might've and l'm just being rude)? And l thought a directional input in the air just started a motion and the momentum would carry you?

I used the Right stick for the input.

 

[Machii]

He uses GC controller, as do most people who have been seriously integrating it into their play. There's a big misconception that a pro controller is somehow necessary.

Because if you want to truly implement Bidou into every option, the fourth shoulder button makes it much smoother. The best comparison I can give is having to move your thumb from an aerial tilt with c-stick to the a - y buttons within a single frame in order for you aerial to execute. Of course that would never be possible, but that is the precision that Bidou demands. Using a GCC you would HAVE to forfeit either shielding, attacking, or jumping from your Bidou; unless you claw grip, but claw grip...

 

[lmntolp]

Because if you want to truly implement Bidou into every option, the fourth shoulder button makes it much smoother. The best comparison I can give is having to move your thumb from an aerial tilt with c-stick to the a - y buttons within a single frame in order for you aerial to execute. Of course that would never be possible, but that is the precision that Bidou demands. Using a GCC you would HAVE to forfeit either shielding, attacking, or jumping from your Bidou; unless you claw grip, but claw grip...

If you use Tap Jump, you don't have to worry about sacrificing those options, and you don't need claw grip. Plus holding R-stick disables Tap Jump and cancels full hops into short hops when bidou is on, so there are fewer downsides to Tap Jump than you might think.

Also, bidou tech isn't all or nothing, and some techs aren't enough of an improvement to warrant a pro player switching controllers and losing tourneys because of it. That's up to the player to decide which techs they need. ESAM said the biggest reason he's using bidou is for easier uthrow -> thunder kills, which he can do with GCC.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I don't know if any of heard of the smashbox, but I believe it can really take this game to another level. I think this will actually get people to use bidou and it looks really good. We should really discuss this

 

[GusTurbo]

I hope it doesn't take off. It's too big and clunky. I would rather be non-optimal than play with that unwieldy thing.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I am definitely open to using it, and very excited to try it. I feel like this can actually make bidou much more practical, and as a result more widespread in the community.

 

[GusTurbo]

I don't really see how it would help with bidou, and I don't understand the argument that it would make bidou more prevalent.

 

[lmntolp]

I don't think 4 buttons is sufficient for many moves, like quick attack, PK thunder, anything that requires odd angles

 

[Machii]

If you use Tap Jump, you don't have to worry about sacrificing those options, and you don't need claw grip.

I forgot about tap jump. I havn't used tap jump in years. Does iit cancel momentum?

 

[lmntolp]

I forgot about tap jump. I havn't used tap jump in years. Does iit cancel momentum?

If you tap a diagonal direction, you can jump forwards or backwards just like with a button, so I think the properties are pretty similar. Or you can do a quick quarter circle from up to side. I still use Y to jump as well for a number of things, especially SH dair and FH nair, so the option is there.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Does Bidou help with frame cancel aerials? I know during bidou you can fastfall anytime during your aerial so maybe this can help more characters frame cancel their aerials.
https://gfycat.com/search/bidou/detail/BlushingSnarlingGemsbok
https://gfycat.com/search/bidou/detail/DependentGlassDeermouse

 

[lmntolp]

Does Bidou help with frame cancel aerials? I know during bidou you can fastfall anytime during your aerial so maybe this can help more characters frame cancel their aerials.
https://gfycat.com/search/bidou/detail/BlushingSnarlingGemsbok
https://gfycat.com/search/bidou/detail/DependentGlassDeermouse

Bidou wouldn't make frame cancelled aerials easier. It's just a matter of landing at exactly the right time.

What Bidou does let you do is fastfall while holding left/right, so you can move a tiny bit more during fastfall compared to tilt stick.

 

[MagnumMuskox]

I hope it doesn't take off. It's too big and clunky. I would rather be non-optimal than play with that unwieldy thing.

Why? If something can help you get to the top, even if it's just helping a little bit, shouldn't you use it?

 

[Glitchy_]

If you use Tap Jump, you don't have to worry about sacrificing those options, and you don't need claw grip. Plus holding R-stick disables Tap Jump and cancels full hops into short hops when bidou is on, so there are fewer downsides to Tap Jump than you might think.

Also, bidou tech isn't all or nothing, and some techs aren't enough of an improvement to warrant a pro player switching controllers and losing tourneys because of it. That's up to the player to decide which techs they need. ESAM said the biggest reason he's using bidou is for easier uthrow -> thunder kills, which he can do with GCC.

Zero however seemed pretty sure it would make a large inpact once mastered (because easier/ more relieable frame-perfect inpuuts)