Important Bidou Tech

[MagnumMuskox]

I'm having an issue with the bidou tech: every once in a while I'll use a special even though I'm holding the trigger down. Is this controller error, finger placement error or technique error?

 

[Y2Kay]

greninja's PP tilts are kinda ridiculous.

I'm.....going for it. I'm gonna try to learn bidou

 

[lmntolp]

greninja's PP tilts are kinda ridiculous.

I'm.....going for it. I'm gonna try to learn bidou

Not only that, but his run speed is very high, his fsmash is disjointed, he has a low profile when crouching and running, and he needs to stay very mobile and rely less on shield than most characters. I think PP tilts are also part of some combos, which means you really have to get them consistent. I think bidou is great for Greninja. The first thing I had to get used to was having to let go of special every time I wanted to use shuriken.

 

[LightningHelix]

I'm pretty torn on whether or not I want to use this. PP wasn't that difficult before. I like how easy it is to suddenly turn directions and quickly stop dashing out of range of an attack, also instant ledge trump is nice. The alternating D-tilts is sort of a novelty in most cases I think. Instant dash attach is useful on a few characters (namely Villager)

Thing that irritates me the most is I have to throw out a special move to go into "Bidou mode", that and the grip is really uncomfortable.

Practiced this with little mac, as I feel he should be able to take advantage of it. I'm absolute dog **** with these controls though. It will take me months to get use to it and I don't see the payoff as being that big. I think i'll wait and keep an eye on Sol's games with little mac as I read he is going to be trying this technique out. I'll let him pioneer it.

I got to admit, it is pretty neat. It's like the "Zatoichi style" of Smash, but it may just be like the Zatoichi style as being more of a novelty than actually practical.

 

[Literal Bacon]

I'm pretty torn on whether or not I want to use this. PP wasn't that difficult before. I like how easy it is to suddenly turn directions and quickly stop dashing out of range of an attack, also instant ledge trump is nice. The alternating D-tilts is sort of a novelty in most cases I think. Instant dash attach is useful on a few characters (namely Villager)

Thing that irritates me the most is I have to throw out a special move to go into "Bidou mode", that and the grip is really uncomfortable.

Practiced this with little mac, as I feel he should be able to take advantage of it. I'm absolute dog **** with these controls though. It will take me months to get use to it and I don't see the payoff as being that big. I think i'll wait and keep an eye on Sol's games with little mac as I read he is going to be trying this technique out. I'll let him pioneer it.

I got to admit, it is pretty neat. It's like the "Zatoichi style" of Smash, but it may just be like the Zatoichi style as being more of a novelty than actually practical.

You can shield or spotdodge in order to go into it.

 

[DJJD]

I doubt this will be the 20XX of sm4sh controller wize where everyone will eventually switch, but I feel like being able to dash dance and trump easier will become extremely useful techs that most people can learn easier. Its definantly grabbing the attention of more melee players such as myself this past week.

 

[Lord Horatio]

The Gamecube controller has been the mainstay of the scene for so long though; having to set up a pro controller in such a counter intuitive way makes it feel like playing a different game almost.

 

[DJJD]

The Gamecube controller has been the mainstay of the scene for so long though; having to set up a pro controller in such a way is too archaic.

Archaic-adj: Very old or old fashioned. Dude I don't think you know what you are saying when you use that word lol. It's defiantly the exact opposite of archaic seeing as how it is the most current controller for Nintendo consoles.

 

[Lord Horatio]

Archaic-adj: Very old or old fashioned. Dude I don't think you know what you are saying when you use that word lol. It's defiantly the exact opposite of archaic seeing as how it is the most current controller for Nintendo consoles.

I did use the word incorrectly, that I did; the post has been edited.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

greninja's PP tilts are kinda ridiculous.

I'm.....going for it. I'm gonna try to learn bidou

GO FOR IT
same

 

[vegeta18]

i have a pro controller that i really like using , even more than gc controller, i just dont because wireless controllers arent legal in every tournament. A lot of tourneys flat out ban pro controllers, should i switch back to my pro cntroller and learn bidou or should i stick with gc and use bidou?

Also im wondering what you lose without having the extra shoulder button? are there techniques that you cant really stil do?

 

[DJJD]

i have a pro controller that i really like using , even more than gc controller, i just dont because wireless controllers arent legal in every tournament. A lot of tourneys flat out ban pro controllers, should i switch back to my pro cntroller and learn bidou or should i stick with gc and use bidou?

Also im wondering what you lose without having the extra shoulder button? are there techniques that you cant really stil do?

I feel like it's not very important unless you want to play someone like Ryu or Cloud who rely on specials for most of your kill options because then you have to take your hand off of your binded special and press it again. Idk maybe I'm just a scrub. I've only played around with bidoof tech for an hour.

 

[lmntolp]

Also im wondering what you lose without having the extra shoulder button? are there techniques that you cant really stil do?

If you lose the jump shoulder button, you can't easily frame perfect RAR. If you lose the shield button and put shield on like B, then you can't easily frame perfect dodge/shield out of perfect pivot. I don't think either of these are a big loss. Technically you could use claw grip and lose nothing. Personally, I've been testing with tap jump, which is making up for me not having a jump shoulder button.

 

[Machii]

Aerials are easier to perform with bidou, than pp's are without bidou. Also, if your ground game is better than your opponents than you don't have to crutch on aerials anyway in your neutral. And roll out of run?
The controls are different, but players that are comfortable with wiimote nunchuck can vouch that it's merely a matter of preference, and that boxer style layouts are entirely effective.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

Aerials are easier to perform with bidou, than pp's are without bidou. Also, if your ground game is better than your opponents than you don't have to crutch on aerials anyway in your neutral. And roll out of run?
The controls are different, but players that are comfortable with wiimote nunchuck can vouch that it's merely a matter of preference, and that boxer style layouts are entirely effective.

precisely. button aerials are doable. and you get the added bonus of having a dedicated fast-fall stick.

perfect pivots are way harder than button aerials. and bidou makes pp's easy as pie. i'd call that a good trade off.
doin it

 

[Literal Bacon]

precisely. button aerials are doable. and you get the added bonus of having a dedicated fast-fall stick.

perfect pivots are way harder than button aerials. and bidou makes pp's easy as pie. i'd call that a good trade off.
doin it

I'd personally take regular perfect pivots over not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I'd personally take regular perfect pivots over not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little.

if you test out button aerials
you'll find that it makes no impact
the momentary directional input
it makes no impact at all as far as i can tell. go ahead and test it yourself.

 

[lmntolp]

I'd personally take regular perfect pivots over not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little.

I thought they were talking about using R-stick+Attack to input aerials. That way you can fully control your momentum while doing the aerial, even while the R-stick is held, just like tilt-stick except without the nair option. The timing is tight, but generally you don't hear smashers complain about pushing a button and moving a stick at the same time.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I thought they were talking about using R-stick+Attack to input aerials. That way you can fully control your momentum while doing the aerial, even while the R-stick is held, just like tilt-stick except without the nair option. The timing is tight, but generally you don't hear smashers complain about pushing a button and moving a stick at the same time.

just fyi the timing for that is one frame.
its way way too hard to do competitively

let alone just sitting there and trying it

 

[lmntolp]

just fyi the timing for that is one frame.
its way way too hard to do competitively

let alone just sitting there and trying it

I'm curious, do we know the timing for smashes? I know you have more than 1 frame because stutter stepping exists, but to do a standing smash, the timing is also very tight if you think about it. Personally, I've been trying out R-stick aerials for a few days and I'm up to something like 75% success rate in training mode. I don't use it all the time, only when I really want maximum momentum. If this important enough to master, I'm sure it'll see competitive use after enough practice time.

 

[Literal Bacon]

if you test out button aerials
you'll find that it makes no impact
the momentary directional input
it makes no impact at all as far as i can tell. go ahead and test it yourself.

I know, it's just a personal problem I myself have.
I can perfect pivot really easily already, you have to if you main Little Mac, which I used to do before Bayonetta came out.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I'm curious, do we know the timing for smashes? I know you have more than 1 frame because stutter stepping exists, but to do a standing smash, the timing is also very tight if you think about it. Personally, I've been trying out R-stick aerials for a few days and I'm up to something like 75% success rate in training mode. I don't use it all the time, only when I really want maximum momentum. If this important enough to master, I'm sure it'll see competitive use after enough practice time.

huh. no kidding.
okay cool keep me updated.
i'll give it a go myself

 

[iVoltage]

I thought most events ban pro controllers for connection issues.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I thought most events ban pro controllers for connection issues.

they dont

you take the battery out and plug in via usb

 

[Eugene Wang]

Okay, it's been a week down since this tech scheme has been popularized. Anyone can report back on their experience with Bidou?

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

Okay, it's been a week down since this tech scheme has been popularized. Anyone can report back on their experience with Bidou?

gettn more used to it. diggin it.

 

[DeaDea]

How do you short hop uair fast fall without upsmashing using this control scheme? Seems pretty hard without dual sticking.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

How do you short hop uair fast fall without upsmashing using this control scheme? Seems pretty hard without dual sticking.

yeah i've been dealing with this a lot. its tricky but i found a good way. hard to describe.
you have to have your finger OFF the jump button before you hit the attack button.
up can be pressed any time before attack.
and then to get the fastfall, you have to practice the whole thing really slow.
its good to learn because it drills that all inputs are actually sequential.

so my best method was to literally "flick" my right bumper (jump) with the tip of my finger instead of "press" it with the middle of my finger.

 

[lmntolp]

Okay, it's been a week down since this tech scheme has been popularized. Anyone can report back on their experience with Bidou?

I've grown to like Bidou more than before. I'm labbing it with GC controller with tap jump on and no shoulder jump button, and I really think this setup is fine. I keep discovering new jank every few days, which lets me do things I thought Bidou restricted. Holding R-stick in any direction disables tap jump, which is a godsend for these controls.

I'm used to the button layout, but I'm still not fluent in turning bidou on/off in the heat of battle, which makes me do dumb mis-inputs like randomly charging skull bash in their face. I'm also not using the Bidou movement techs that much yet. To be take full advantage of Bidou, these things will have to become second nature. I'll keep practicing Bidou, since it's super interesting and I see a lot of potential in mastering it, but I have a long way to go.

How do you short hop uair fast fall without upsmashing using this control scheme? Seems pretty hard without dual sticking.

Dual sticking still kind of exists with Bidou, although I only verified this with tap jump on so far. Hold L-stick up -> R-stick anywhere but up -> Attack. The aerial you do follows the L-stick direction, so you can move L-stick right after jumping to do other aerials. Since it's not tilt-stick, you have to press Attack late enough to not do Usmash.

After that, you can use either stick to fastfall. If you fastfall with R-stick, you can buffer a dash out of landing.

EDIT: Changed "R-stick anywhere" to "R-stick anywhere but up". I left out those 2 words.
EDIT2: Double sticking still works with tap jump off in bidou. Same input as above but also press jump while moving L-stick up. That's 4 inputs though, so you either have to take shield off a shoulder button to make room for jump, use claw grip, or use pro controller.

 

[Indigo_]

Anyone having an issue getting used to releasing the special shoulder button before using a special (the one you hold down)? Maybe I am missing something?

 

[Respect38]

I'd personally take regular perfect pivots over not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little.

This "bidou is just for perfect pivots" meme is annoying for what it misses.

Let's just ignore the fact that perfect pivots are much more consistent with bidou. Let's even ignore the fact that crouching perfect pivots are much more consistent, and therefore crouching perfect pivots on platforms for cross-fading through a platform are more consistent. [and lets, therefore, ignore the impact that consistent perfect pivots would have for certain characters' neutral games] Let's also ignore that special stick (which bidou uses) enables b-sticking specials for easily wavebounced specials.

You're telling me that this, just on its own, isn't worth "not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little"?

I mean, I'm sure that it varies from main to main, but let's at least be honest and realize that bidou, utilized to its fullest, is more than just perfect pivots, even if they are the poster boy of bidou.

 

[lmntolp]

Anyone having an issue getting used to releasing the special shoulder button before using a special (the one you hold down)? Maybe I am missing something?

I think lots of people including myself are running into this problem. It'll just take practice to add this to muscle memory.
One thing I'm doing more often now is inputting my special move with the same shoulder button. That way I know I let go of it and it puts me back into bidou mode.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

This "bidou is just for perfect pivots" meme is annoying for what it misses.

Let's just ignore the fact that perfect pivots are much more consistent with bidou. Let's even ignore the fact that crouching perfect pivots are much more consistent, and therefore crouching perfect pivots on platforms for cross-fading through a platform are more consistent. [and lets, therefore, ignore the impact that consistent perfect pivots would have for certain characters' neutral games] Let's also ignore that special stick (which bidou uses) enables b-sticking specials for easily wavebounced specials.

You're telling me that this, just on its own, isn't worth "not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little"?

I mean, I'm sure that it varies from main to main, but let's at least be honest and realize that bidou, utilized to its fullest, is more than just perfect pivots, even if they are the poster boy of bidou.

the input for that fastfall into dash thing
was very easy without bidou
it just isn't done terribly much
fox trot canceling is good though
and the pp crouch through platform

 

[EnhaloTricks]

the input for that fastfall into dash thing
was very easy without bidou
it just isn't done terribly much
fox trot canceling is good though
and the pp crouch through platform

You can do this without bidou, though, and it's not hard. Just takes a little bit to practice and being confident in your perfect pivots.

I would like to fox trot cancel though

 

[Literal Bacon]

This "bidou is just for perfect pivots" meme is annoying for what it misses.

Let's just ignore the fact that perfect pivots are much more consistent with bidou. Let's even ignore the fact that crouching perfect pivots are much more consistent, and therefore crouching perfect pivots on platforms for cross-fading through a platform are more consistent. [and lets, therefore, ignore the impact that consistent perfect pivots would have for certain characters' neutral games] Let's also ignore that special stick (which bidou uses) enables b-sticking specials for easily wavebounced specials.

You're telling me that this, just on its own, isn't worth "not being able to do fairs or bairs without moving a little"?

I mean, I'm sure that it varies from main to main, but let's at least be honest and realize that bidou, utilized to its fullest, is more than just perfect pivots, even if they are the poster boy of bidou.

I was referring to Smash stick Bidou, which provides the same benefits with the only downsides being perfect pivot crouching requiring a perfect pivot input and pressing down on the c stick and having to let go of both Special and Attack to do specials and tilts.
It provides a benefit which Special stick Bidou doesn't, aerials with the c stick, which is what I was referring to.
I can already do perfect pivots consistently, as well as foxtrot cancels, I was even doing quickstepping months before the video came out (I called it forward pivoting), you kinda had to be able to do these if you mained Little Mac, which I did before Bayonetta came out.
That part of the video isn't even Bidou specific, in fact, nothing is Bidou specific, you can do the same thing by just inputting down on the control stick for one frame and buffering a dash.

 

[Respect38]

Does returning your stick to neutral not reduce your horizontal momentum? That's what I was getting out of the video. Either way, it's more inputs to get used to rather than the intuition of your left stick being where you want to go and your right stick being whether you want to fast fall or not. [and possibly more inputs to do something that's objectively worse, if the answer to the former is "yes"]

 

[Literal Bacon]

Does returning your stick to neutral not reduce your horizontal momentum? That's what I was getting out of the video. Either way, it's more inputs to get used to rather than the intuition of your left stick being where you want to go and your right stick being whether you want to fast fall or not. [and possibly more inputs to do something that's objectively worse, if the answer to the former is "yes"]

The way the game works is, when you input with the c stick, the game is registering you as inputting whatever direction you press the c stick and overrides the direction you're holding the control stick for one frame. Inputting down on the c stick with Bidou is exactly the same as inputting down on the control stick for one frame, you won't lose momentum from either. If there were somehow a way to input a neutral on the c stick, it would be exactly the same as resetting your control stick to neutral for one frame.
This is due to the nature of the c stick. The c stick, when set to an attack, acts as a macro (registers two inputs with one button press) for a direction (the direction you press it) and whatever attack it's set to. The concept of Bidou is essentially an exploit of the way macros and inputs are handled in this game.
For example, take a look at the grab button. There is no actual "grab" input, the grab button is simply a macro for shield and attack. If you press grab, the game registers this as attack (for one frame) and shield (for as long as you hold it). The way this game registers inputs is by each frame, and the game runs at 60fps, meaning, if you somehow managed to press down, say, shield, 60 times in one second, the game would register this as holding down shield and you'd never drop it. The only way to drop it would be letting go of shield for one frame. Because of this, holding down attack and pressing grab would make the game register you holding down attack and pressing shield, meaning your shield comes out instead. Holding down attack and pressing grab in the air makes your airdodge. Holding down shield and pressing grab in the air makes you perform aerials. This macro can even be seen from pressing down and grab at the same time (which makes you down smash) and pressing up and grab during jumpsquat frames (which makes you up smash).
Bidou works under this exact same principle, holding down the special button and pressing a direction on the c stick makes the game register you as holding down the special button and pressing a direction, making you dash in that direction. You're still technically letting go of the control stick, and by that I mean whatever direction it's being held doesn't register as the c stick direction takes priority.

 

[Pierce7d]

This tech is good because it enables you to save frames with movement on offensive strings, opening up potential in advantage, and it allows you to have superior movement on the ground, which opens up potential in the neutral.

But I would focus on simply getting better at Smash first, because it's not going to help you beat someone who is better than you at the game.

 

[lmntolp]

But I would focus on simply getting better at Smash first, because it's not going to help you beat someone who is better than you at the game.

This is definitely true. Bidou is not going to get you a huge jump in performance, especially in the short term. The thing is, bidou is a complete change in controls (and maybe controller), so the deeper you get into smash, the harder the change will be. I actually recommend setting bidou controls without using any bidou movement tricks at first and working on fundamentals with the new button layout.

It's a big time investment to change to bidou, so it's ok to discuss the specific techs as benefits/costs of bidou to decide whether it's even worth it to learn it for certain characters.

 

[Indigo_]

Bidou is absolutely AMAZING for Up-B recoveries with multiple input windows aka Greninja & Pikachu.