Important Bidou Tech

[lmntolp]

I mentioned B-sticking, and yes it makes wavebouncing easier for UpB, SideB, and DownB. However, with tilt-stick there's a tech called C-bouncing, where if you have a trigger set to special, you can wavebounce neutral B very easily. With bidou controls, I've been able to wavebounce neutral B before activating bidou with Special -> L-stick back -> R-stick forward, but it's a bit harder than C-bounce, ironically.

I've also been able to wavebounce all specials with just the control stick and B button, but the momentum shift is smaller and the timing is harder. Of course, it's possible to do a semi-wavebounce with RAR -> B-reversal, which can be done with any controls, but again the momentum shift is smaller.

I'm experimenting with using the B-stick for quick attacking around, as I haven't had that option before.

 

[itsmeMOB]

Interesting to see, but only a select amount of characters get full benefits of this, therefore making it useless in a lot of aspects but only useful to select amounts. Will it change the meta? Maybe. Will it have a lasting impact? I don't think so.

Plus, with all new tech, it needs to be labbed and be used for months before we even see the effectiveness.

I really dislike how the control scheme for Bidou works, it just messes up a lot of buttons that people can be used to already.

 

[lmntolp]

As someone who started playing smash seriously with Nunchuck in Brawl, then 3DS, then finally with GC for Wii U, and who transitioned from Tap Jump ON to OFF to ON again, I can say that it's possible to completely change your controls within a few weeks of non-intense play. I think the control transition is totally surmountable, although unfortunately, for players with money on the line, losing a couple weeks of performance can be a tough call.

After labbing bidou for many hours, I found that bidou really doesn't make you lose a lot with GC (especially with Tap Jump imo). Fast SH Uair is doable with Tap Jump, and I believe C-aerials are usable if practiced enough. On the other hand, the number of things you can only do with bidou are questionable, and you do lose some frames doing PP utilt or knee-jerk specials. Practically, the choice of bidou just makes some things faster and some slower, just like any other control scheme change. You also get a B-stick, which is pretty good for a small number of characters.

For that reason, ultimately I think bidou is completely character dependent on whether it's worth it, it won't move characters by whole tiers, and it won't be the dominant control setup. The thing is, plenty of people play multiple characters at all levels of competition, and if any one of their tournament characters is better without bidou, It's reasonable that they would stick to standard controls for all their characters. I'm not sure if I'll stick to bidou, but if nothing else, it's the best motivation for labbing and incorporating pivots into my regular tilt-stick play.

 

[Literal Bacon]

Hey guys, there's a way to use Bidou with Smash C Stick, I wrote a guide on it a bit earlier.
http://smashboards.com/guides/using-bidou-with-smash-c-stick.860/

 

[HFlash]

Literal Bacon Does this also work with C stick set to tilt?

 

[Literal Bacon]

Literal Bacon Does this also work with C stick set to tilt?

Unfortunately no. As I said in my video and written guide, the way this works is through an exploit of macros, the fact that holding one input down causes it to not register when pressing the macro (for example, holding down shield while in the air and pressing grab will let you do aerials). C stick set to specials and smashes are a macro for a direction and the specific attack, but the value of the direction is high enough for a dash to come out. Tilt stick is also a macro for a direction and an attack, but the direction value is only high enough for a tilt to be able to consistently come out. Trying this with tilt stick will only make your character fidget, though it can let them turn around.

 

[Nysyr]

Personally I hope this is patched out, as it forces you to a certain control scheme. People thought Melee tech was a barrier to players? That would hold nothing to this buffer abuse.

 

[Ryukred]

I've been using this for about two days now and I'm slowly getting used to it. Here's my control setup on a GCC. I'm sad I don't have my c-stick aerials anymore but I'll get used to it.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I won't be able to lab it out for a long time, but I'm a bit skeptical of its implementation. So I'm excited to see what Sol can do with it since he jumped on super quick and is already finding some things.

Having said that, I took some of the techs and applied them to regular perfect pivots and it's worked out AWESOME. The pp platform drop is super easy to do, though not quite as frame perfect as the bidou one, and has some pretty good uses.

I'm skeptical, but excited for what people will do with it.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

I am usually a player who is pretty sceptical about ATs, but since I use a quite similar control scheme anyway, I gave it a try and I have to say that I am amazed how easy it is. At least, as long you are willing to sacrifice the C-Stick for Aerials (you dont have to, but the alternative scheme feels way harder and less practical in my book). I was able to use perfect pivots instantly, and PPs into Dtilts and Spotdodges was easy as well - coming from someone, who is really bad when it comes to such things usually.

Now I am testing the PP Utilt by using this technique. Somehow my character usually switches to the wrong direction while I am doing the Uptilt. Sometimes it works, but I cannot do it constistently. Do I something fundamentally wrong or is this generally as unconfortable as it seems?

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't see it working out in the long run. Here are the oft comedic reasons why:

-I tested it myself, and after a while of labbing it and getting used to it...it makes me worse! The tech makes me significantly worse than my normal skill last night. Normally, I obviously hold back, but regardless, that doesn't mean I should screw up almost the entire match! But it did help me find out that when I don't hold back, that I'm better with frame-perfect inputs than with the tech! So I found the input pointless in the long run.

-It's useful for perfect pivoting...something that isn't even useful whatsoever. Like seriously, what is perfect pivoting even useful for? For utilizing extra attacks that you don't normally see in even professional gameplay? So why do we have a tech for a tech that isn't even useful?

-Bidou D-Tilt? Pfft...

-As if RAR attacks haven't gotten more complicated and tougher to even utilize, here we have a tech that makes RAR bad.

-Now I didn't mention it on the first post, but another big reason as to why it makes me significantly worse is the setup itself! I've always used C-Stick on my gamepad for Smash attacks (and that gamepad is literally the reason why I can never go to tournaments; **** you, TOs), and both my L and R buttons are for shielding, so I need it like that to actually play successfully. So having a control setup like this to where it makes techs even more complicated makes me sway away from even using it.

-Since when did tournaments allow you to use Gamepads? Wii U screen pads? (Again, **** you, TOs.)

 

[HFlash]

So I'm excited to see what Sol can do with it since he jumped on super quick and is already finding some things.

Sol jumped on quick because lil mac is probably the biggest benefactor to the tech. Lil mac really could care less about c sticking aerials.

 

[Literal Bacon]

I've been using this for about two days now and I'm slowly getting used to it. Here's my control setup on a GCC. I'm sad I don't have my c-stick aerials anymore but I'll get used to it.

Good news! Smash stick Bidou lets you use c stick aerials.

 

[Ryukred]

Good news! Smash stick Bidou lets you use c stick aerials.

Yeah but it's pretty hard D:

 

[Literal Bacon]

Yeah but it's pretty hard D:

While smash stick Bidou makes some things a bit harder than special stick Bidou, you can do aerials with the c stick by simply letting go of special or attack.

 

[Ryukred]

While smash stick Bidou makes some things a bit harder than special stick Bidou, you can do aerials with the c stick by simply letting go of special or attack.

What do you mean by "smash stick bidou" and "special stick bidou"? I have c-stick set to specials.

 

[Literal Bacon]

What do you mean by "smash stick bidou" and "special stick bidou"? I have c-stick set to specials.

There's a way to do Bidou with c stick set to smash, so one is not limited to having to use c stick set to specials
I made a guide on it, which I've linked in an earlier post in this thread

 

[Ryukred]

There's a way to do Bidou with c stick set to smash, so one is not limited to having to use c stick set to specials
I made a guide on it, which I've linked in an earlier post in this thread

Nice, I'll check it out and do some testing.

 

[Ryukred]

There's a way to do Bidou with c stick set to smash, so one is not limited to having to use c stick set to specials
I made a guide on it, which I've linked in an earlier post in this thread

Sorry for the double post but rip this, you can't attack while holding a+b.

 

[samosa]

There's a way to do Bidou with c stick set to smash, so one is not limited to having to use c stick set to specials
I made a guide on it, which I've linked in an earlier post in this thread

Smash stick bidou was actually discovered some time ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-buffer-wave-di-wave-shuffle-wave-dash.405939/
Check out this old thread if anyone is interested.

This guy kinda made an attempt to explain how it works a while ago. even before the japanese bidou video came out... He called it smashbuffer which kinda makes sense. What didn't help was that he was bad at explaining and called every movement wave-something.

 

[Literal Bacon]

Sorry for the double post but rip this, you can't attack while holding a+b.

Yeah that's the one drawback, you have to let go of both for one frame then input an attack or you'll just smash (which I said in the guide), so it makes attacking slightly harder

 

[Literal Bacon]

Smash stick bidou was actually discovered some time ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-buffer-wave-di-wave-shuffle-wave-dash.405939/
Check out this old thread if anyone is interested.

This guy kinda made an attempt to explain how it works a while ago. even before the japanese bidou video came out... He called it smashbuffer which kinda makes sense. What didn't help was that he was bad at explaining and called every movement wave-something.

Oh my god
The sheer difference of "this has to be a joke" to "oh my god this is meta game changing"...

 

[samosa]

You can also smash stick bidou(A+B smash bidou?) with the wii remote and nunchuck, having A+B smash on and mapping Z and C to attack and special, and the dpad to smash attacks.
You can choose different actions for all the directions on the dpad for example: left-right for smash attacks and up-down for shield and jump or something likewise. You also keep momentum when using the d-pad for aerial attacks.
This plays really weird but your fingers don't have to move at all with the right mapping in theory.

 

[Runic_SSB]

This won't result in anything. Just like literally every other video he's made, it'll cause a lot of hype but ultimately no one will use it at higher levels. In a month, the word "Bidou" will be completely forgotten.

 

[Ax^2]

This won't result in anything. Just like literally every other video he's made, it'll cause a lot of hype but ultimately no one will use it at higher levels. In a month, the word "Bidou" will be completely forgotten.

I already forgotten all about it. I have tried practicing it for the past 4 or so days, and all it is is a luxury. It is far more convenient to use the regular controls. The bidou control scheme is too different, and it's literally like using 2 different control schemes at once. Bidou mode, and regular.

 

[vegeta18]

is bidou still good on gc controller without the extra shoulder button?

 

[Ax^2]

is bidou still good on gc controller without the extra shoulder button?

It just makes it even more difficult to execute the tech properly without that extra button. That and the button layout imo.

 

[lmntolp]

It just makes it even more difficult to execute the tech properly without that extra button. That and the button layout imo.

I agree, but if you choose to ditch the shoulder jump button, you won't really miss it. I imagine the shape of the pro controller and the type of shoulder buttons it has makes bidou more comfortable, so it is better, but GC is still fine.

 

[Scrubtorights]

The best use for this would honestly be Little Mac or your a high level player that plays certain mid tiers that have to play against top tier threats mostly. On one hand mid tiers value c stick but on the other hand on stage those characters will have to deal with the fact that they will be punished for their jumps in the neutral forcing a more careful play style. But thats just me.

 

[DemonRin]

Ok, just found out about this... gonna try it out right now. I wonder what advantages I can maybe figure out with Mario using this... anyone got any ideas for him?

Mapping my Gamecube controller buttons now. Lesse...

 

[Ax^2]

Ok, just found out about this... gonna try it out right now. I wonder what advantages I can maybe figure out with Mario using this... anyone got any ideas for him?

Mapping my Gamecube controller buttons now. Lesse...

I observed that mario benefits a lot from the various pp movement techs. Makes it easier to RAR, reverse usmash and much more.

 

[DemonRin]

OK, this feels SO Weird.... not sure if getting used to this is feasible...

Did something funny tho. Not interesting from a meta standpoint, but funny. I started practicing with Captain Falcon since I'm naturally better at Perfect Pivoting with him in general, so I figured he'd help with the learning curve....Training mode Random'd me a Cloud as my opponent... so, after a bit of getting used to it, I decided to test the whole "Chaining Dash Attacks" thing the video lets you do since it seemed like an easier trick to dip my toes in

Because I was right next to Cloud when I started, the hitbox for Falcon's dash extends a bit out from the front of him, so it actually hit BEHIND Cloud, the attack didn't touch him. That's not the end tho, because remember, I'm testing CHAINING them... well, because Bidou only advances you one frame when you hit the C-Stick, I guess I didn't have the momentum to actually run PAST Cloud... so I just chained Dash attacks until I'd pushed him, without causing ANY damage or hitstun, from one side of Omega Mute City to the other.... lol

 

[Piipp]

This sort of thing can hold people back from competitive Smash, i.e. "I need to become intuitive with this specific awkward control scheme or else I'm handicapping myself and might as well not play at all". Interesting for those who don't mind it though.

I feel like it really challenges the person who's not using the tech.

 

[paperchao]

So has anyone found a way to replicate bidou with tilt stick yet? Or is it impossible?

 

[brady_boy_26]

I dont understand the hate for bidou is nothing but an exploit of the games mechanics. its not toxic to the community it is simply tech.

 

[Squanchy]

Are pro controller bidou players exclusively using R and ZR for jumping and attacks? Or are there situations where X/A are preferable?

 

[Eugene Wang]

Are pro controller bidou players exclusively using R and ZR for jumping and attacks? Or are there situations where X/A are preferable?

Claw grippers can use the letter buttons and the c stick at the same time. Whether it's worth it is entirely up to personal preference.

 

[blackghost]

I think its ridiculous that people expect to be automatically as good with this as they were previously. Also players acting like this definitely wont be worth it might want to wait beforte passing judgment. we wont know in a single day or month. but long term at least a portion of the casst will get something from this.

 

[Literal Bacon]

So has anyone found a way to replicate bidou with tilt stick yet? Or is it impossible?

Due to the way tilt stick works, you aren't able to do everything that you are able to with smash or special stick.
What you CAN do: spotdodge without letting go of down, turnaround, stutter runs, transition from walk to dash

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Claw grippers can use the letter buttons and the c stick at the same time. Whether it's worth it is entirely up to personal preference.

I've started to use a right hand claw grip to make up for the lack of a second left shoulder button. This way, I have fingers on L, R, Z, and X at the same time. Assign those to Special, Jump, Shield, and Attack as you prefer and this allows the GC controller to work just fine.

In fairness, being new to the grip and the control style has set me back real hard... (I'm sure my weekly smash buddies will be happy to see that on Sunday, heh) but I can already see the worth. For ZSS, the PP spacing on her dsmash alone could make this worth it. Not to mention all the instant landing dashes and the moves that can be done out of a crawl (of which she has one of the best).