Important Bidou Tech

[Mario766]

Unless pro controllers become a thing at most events this own't catch on.

You can do some of the things in a GCN controller but a lot of characters REALLY like attack or smash stick, which will remove that entirely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud doesnt need tilt stick which is why I think this will be a common thing for him and def create a gap between him and other characters.

Frame perfect Cloud?

A new era is upon us.

 

[Tizio Random]

A couple months ago when I saw the original Japanese video, I tried to make bidou work with gamecube controller and after 3 hours I became pretty happy with special on L, attack on Z, and shield on R, so bidou is definitely viable for gamecube.

Pretty much this. And from what I tested it works good also because I never use L or Z.

 

[Halifax?]

I would like to take a moment for Shulk, Fox, Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Luigi, and Sonic. Have you seen how long their perfect pivots are? And you're telling me Bidou not only lets the average human chain perfect pivots together, but also frame perfectly input nearly every option out of one? Sol have mercy on us. His mac will literally be bobbing and weaving

ALSO

Something that feels really weird about this. If Bidou ends up being a revolutionary tech that affects the meta, it feels weird how characters have been nerfed before it's implementation. Like, what if Bidou (or any undiscovered tech) made some overpowered option easy to avoid? (or harder to avoid?)

 

[HeavyLobster]

So from what I can tell this is really valuable for any character who gets a lot of mileage out of PPs. Not entirely sold on it being universally worthwhile, and in general fundamentals will still win out. Personally the only meaningful control scheme change I'd need would be B-stick over tilt stick.

 

[Pazzo.]

Imagine if that Samus had a REAL ground game with spaced utilts, jabs and ftilts.

Scary how strong the control game would have been.

And yeah I think Cloud, ZSS and Little Mac get the most out of this. Then probably Greninja and Bayonetta.

Also a new control scheme only takes a few days to master. Talk like this is basically the difference between those that talk and those that win tournaments.

Too hard?

lol. Do you people not understand humans have landed on the damn moon decades ago? This is nothing in comparison.

If anything, this proves that humans prefer the familiar over the optimal.

Personally, I'll be labing this and taking notes ASAP.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Having to set C-stick to special means that the checkmate becomes 100 times more difficult to do. I think I'll pass. In fact, I don't know what Robin could possibly get out of this tech anyway. It seems like a waste of time for Robin.

 

[lmntolp]

Robin could get wavebounced Arcfire with B-stick. I wish I could do that with regular controls. Bidou itself doesn't seem worth for robin at all.

 

[Tizio Random]

Having to set C-stick to special means that the checkmate becomes 100 times more difficult to do. I think I'll pass. In fact, I don't know what Robin could possibly get out of this tech anyway. It seems like a waste of time for Robin.

Yeah, I also tested on him and aside from wavebounced specials I don't see many use. Also his PP is really short. I think that characters that don't focus really on movement options but traps/walls won't see many differences but for others this is great.

EDIT: 'd on the Robin part

 

[Pazzo.]

Thankfully more characters than Robin exist on the roster.

I'd imagine that ground-fast characters would get more use from this anyway.

 

[Tizio Random]

Thankfully more characters than Robin exist on the roster.

I'd imagine that ground-fast characters would get more use from this anyway.

I can see in more or less a year people using this technique to be praised for their tech skill and the ones that use a character that don't really benefit from it to be called "playing lame" like Jigglypuff in Melee.

 

[Pazzo.]

I can see in more or less a year people using this technique to be praised for their tech skill and the ones that use a character that don't really benefit from it to be called "playing lame" like Jigglypuff in Melee.

The places this could go.

I just hope it catches on, even if my preferred character () would be in that "lame" category.

 

[Respect38]

How this will affect game balanced depends on how much bidou catches on, as well as for how long the Smash devs work on game balance. We could hope that it would result in the low/mid-tier characters that gain very little from bidou getting buffed in return, or the high-tier characters that gain a good amount from bidou getting nerfed in return.

TL;DR it's a great day to be a main of a low/mid-tier and willing to learn bidou, and a bad day to be a main of a high-tier character that benefits from bidou but being unwilling to learn it, since this means that a future nerf is now much more likely.

Hey, if Cloud benefits a lot from this, it'll be nice that he'll be way less braindead.

 

[Eugene Wang]

When Little Mac is mid-tier, Marth start receiving nerfs, and there's much more of a ground game, Jigglypuff will be left behind, and be primarily a sandbagging character by kirby and meta knight mains. Maybe that'll be the impetus for the balance team to #buffthepuff.

 

[2fast]

Cloud, falcon, fox ect. Anyone with already strong ground games will get a lot of benefit from this. I'm terrified of what Cloud would become with this. Falcon would basically be melee incarnate lol.

So people know, you can map Bidou to your gamecube controller. The only thing you'll be missing is jump mapped to one of your shoulder buttons but that really doesn't take away anything.

 

[LarryAlberto]

Would having Tap Jump on make up for the lost shoulder jump button on the GameCube controller?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Shulks Monado art tech + bidou = endless possibilities.
The shulk discord is amazing I tell ya

 

[Gawain]

i think you guys are overrating this a lot lol. Losing c stick aerials is a big deal, and all you're getting for it is an easier time doing a bunch of things that you can do without it if you're fast enough, with a handful of exceptions. Im not seeing this catch on except maybe with certain characters like Little Mac.

 

[Pazzo.]

For decriers based around the GCC, here's an interesting write up about the Bidou Tech being used optimally on one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...an_still_use_a_gamecube_controller_for_bidou/

Here's a kicker: C-Stick air attacks can still be used. That's right, you get a free wavebounce and tilt stick in one package.

 

[lmntolp]

Would having Tap Jump on make up for the lost shoulder jump button on the GameCube controller?

In my experience, yes, although trying to SH bair while holding down L is not very comfortable. Normal RAR is not much slower, so it's not a big loss if you don't want to use tap jump.

EDIT: Wow I totally forgot about C-aerials because I haven't seen the full Japanese video in a while and it wasn't the easiest to understand. In that case, I totally recommend tap jump for GC, and I mostly take back my complaint about lack of A-stick. Now the only thing I'm missing from A-stick is double-sticking for frame perfect SH aerials.

 

[Nabbitnator]

In my experience, yes, although trying to SH bair while holding down L is not very comfortable. Normal RAR is not much slower, so it's not a big loss if you don't want to use tap jump.

EDIT: Wow I totally forgot about C-aerials because I haven't seen the full Japanese video in a while and it wasn't the easiest to understand. In that case, I totally recommend tap jump for GC, and I mostly take back my complaint about lack of A-stick. Now the only thing I'm missing from A-stick is double-sticking for frame perfect SH aerials.

I had to reverse L and R for it to feel natural.

 

[lmntolp]

I figured out that with a bit of a trick double sticking does work! With tap jump on, hold L-stick up -> hold R-stick in any direction besides up while moving L-stick to the direction of aerial you want-> press Attack. The aerial will ignore the R-stick direction and smash an aerial in the direction of the L-stick. This is great for anyone doing SH aerials as quickly as possible. I tested this with Robin to make sure R-stick had an effect. With this technique, I was able to do all 4 SH Levin aerials while holding a bronze sword beforehand! Maybe bidou isn't as detrimental to Robin as I thought. This also works for SH smash throwing items, if that's of any use.

EDIT: Actually this is more general than I thought. With tap jump, hold L-stick up -> R-stick anywhere but up is an empty short hop!

With tap jump off, I found a way to do SH smashed aerials, but double sticking doesn't work, which means it's easy to Usmash instead of SH uair, and you have to input SH instead of holding jump. To do this, SH -> hold R-stick any direction but up + move L-stick to the aerial direction -> Attack. This is not really helpful except for smash throwing items and using the Levin sword.

You can also Dsmash or DA while crouching, which is impossible with tilt stick. For DA, R-stick foward -> Attack. For Dsmash, R-stick up -> Attack while crouching.

 

[HFlash]

Can anyone explain exactly how you are able to c stick aerials with bidou? I'm just not getting it from the reddit post.

 

[lmntolp]

Can anyone explain exactly how you are able to c stick with bidou? I'm just not getting it from the reddit post.

With bidou, smash R-stick + Attack acts as a C-stick. From what I'm seeing, this C-stick is equivalent to the C-stick set to smash, except you can change your momentum during aerials with L-stick.

 

[-Fatality-]

I'm going to be testing this quite heavily in the coming weeks, my main goal will be to see how well I can get around the fact that we no longer have a C-stick for aerials, because if that can be reasonably done with Falcon, then the sky's the limit, and many, many, weird and wonderful things will become possible with Falcon!

 

[san.]

I'm going to be testing this quite heavily in the coming weeks, my main goal will be to see how well I can get around the fact that we no longer have a C-stick for aerials, because if that can be reasonably done with Falcon, then the sky's the limit, and many, many, weird and wonderful things will become possible with Falcon!

At most you can only press Attack + C-stick at the same time to get an aerial, sadly.



I tried this out for a while, and the ease of attacking with C-stick attack and L as jump trumps easier perfect pivots for me. Most of the things bidou can perform can be done manually with some practice, while the 1-frame bidou c-stick method is tough to do on reaction and doesn't work too consistently on the ground (walking into a dtilt for example).

 

[HFlash]

From messing around with the gamepad. I find perfect pivoting IMMENSELY easier to do traditionally as opposed to using the GC controller. Anyone else have a similar experience?

 

[Nabbitnator]

So far i've only been able to extended falco's combos. As for falcon could this give him true knee combos?

 

[Gawain]

My diagnosis after playing the full day with this tech is heavily leaning to the idea that it's a no-go.

Using the attack button and the c stick on the exact same frame will yield whatever aerial you pushed on the c stick, but in my opinion this is just not precise enough. You also lose the ability to buffer frame perfect up airs out of jump squat when not using tilt stick, which really opens a lot of doors for Falcon and others.

You're trading these things for what? The main thing is that it gives you full control over perfect pivots, letting you buffer stuff during the slide. As cool as that sounds, it's still extremely situational and you're sacrificing reliability in something that you're gonna be using constantly the entire match long.

It would be worth it if you could do the slide etc at any time like a wavedash but you can ONLY perform this out of the initial dash and it doesn't even override your current momentum, making it much MUCH less useful.

I don't think this tech will last that long in the grand scheme of things. I think it will fall into obscurity just like it did when it first was found. You are pretty much better off simply mastering normal perfect pivoting and focusing on other areas of the game while maintaining tilt stick.

 

[Trifroze]

From messing around with the gamepad. I find perfect pivoting IMMENSELY easier to do traditionally as opposed to using the GC controller. Anyone else have a similar experience?

Chances are your GCC is just worn out. The control stick slowly becomes less and less responsive to the point where eventually perfect pivoting simply doesn't work most of the time.

 

[OshaHott]

So, from reading all of your comments, it seems that it's more of just a fun little technique that could be used in friendlies but not really in a competitive setting. That's what I was hoping for! It seems like in the video, he was exploring the techs capabilities, or it's strengths, not it's weaknesses. Hope y'all have fun with the new tech! Haven't gotten to try it out myself, but I hope to one day.

 

[OshaHott]

Plus, the fact that I just got on Smash Boards, it's really cool to almost feel apart of the community. ^.^ Maybe one day I actually will be!

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Thankfully more characters than Robin exist on the roster.

I'd imagine that ground-fast characters would get more use from this anyway.

That's nice, but I wasn't talking about the whole roster, I was only talking about Robin. I could do without the sarcasm though, thank you very much.

 

[Kofu]

Watching the video I was most impressed with the options out of dash along with the obvious perfect pivoting applications.

The control scheme is a killer for me overall but I'll test it out for fun. Definitely something that can help characters with strong ground games who want to maximize spacing.

 

[Ax^2]

https://youtu.be/mH528Pdh1Rk


https://youtu.be/avr9CQlSqRI

Im pretty sure that most of you have seen these videos about the Bidou Tech in Smash 4, but what are your thoughts on this? Do you think this tech is just a something to show off, or something that people can actually get used to, or maybe transform the entire competitive scene? I have been trying to use this tech for the past 2 days and it is surprisingly easy to get used to.

I personally think this will be a game changer if someone in the competetive scene masters this. I also think this will bump up some characters in the tier list. Your thoughts?

 

[brady_boy_26]

it is interesting it probably wont be used all that much though seeing as though it was discovered a long time ago and wasnt used than

 

[marteen_]

I don't think this is going to redefine the meta completely. Expand it and make way from some cool movement options, yes. Be an absolute gamechanger? Nope.

There's definitely a number of characters where using Bidou is going to be a tradeoff from losing tiltstick. I'm personally not going to bother with it after messing with it. A lot of the tech Bidou has to offer can be done without it, and I prefer to keep tiltstick as a result.

It does really make a number of characters better though. It's also great for players that like playing footsies and using tricky movement.

So at the end of the day, I'm guessing this is going to be something that only some players will really use.

 

[Clefargle]

I think it could turn out to really shake up high-level smash 4 play. I have seen so much potential for PP movement and other ATs in the past but not with the current controller implementation. The problem really boiled down to how to consistently input these ATs without cramping your hand or only 2% of the players having the prowess to pull it off. Bidou tech could really open up frame perfect tech to the wider player base. I'm excited to see it implemented at the tourney level. But here is where it gets sticky. De-synching pro controllers is dicey under most tourney conditions and is therefore not allowed at most of them. But I have heard of people using may flash pro controller adapters to desynch them after matches or modding controllers to allow quick battery removal. I think it's entirely reasonable to accommodate people wishing to use this control scheme. But get ready to hear a bunch of naysayers pop into the thread. The competitive smash scene is change-averse and very tied to tradition. But I think it could really improve the level of play seen in Sm4sh across the board.

 

[Respect38]

Perhaps this will also bring about a return to B-sticking for wavebounces due to the fact that the control setup for bidou relies on you having the C-stick set to Special Moves anyway? I don't believe I've seen anyone mention that in relation to bidou thus far. [even though it seems to be that B-sticking would have good applications for certain characters already, even before bidou]

 

[[BROF]]

On a game with such limited options I hope at least some people lab this immensely.
Props to the Japanese scene for being the forerunners of optimizing the game and its characters instead of just sticking with what currently works.
No prize money sure does wonders for a diverse meta.