Best moves of each type

[aεrgiα]

I think they can be used well, especially in the case of Link's Z-air-to-grab deal since his is generally the fastest. But yeah, Samus' is pretty damn good and benefiets her, I just think that air tethers aren't particularly strong for anyone's game other than Samus and Link - even ZSS's I find is near-completely unseen.

I just think overall, between choosing a clean Z-drop and a Z-air attack/recovery, a clean Z-drop is usually the better option since any character with a held projectile now has to expend a little more effort protecting it just in case that Z-drop leads into a nasty free hit, which I've actually had happen both ways on a few occasions. (Unless there's a way tether chars can Z-drop without tethering, then forget literally every argument I've made. lol)

Also, excuse me!? Dedede's crouch doesn't attack, we're talking attacks here. Gawsh.

for characters with certain spawnable items i 100% agree, although yes you can z drop items without the tether coming out, its very specific though, using grab/zair just after your grounded jump (without an item this causes an airdodge even from tether characters), so it doesnt have too many applications. but on characters without spawnable items, i easily prefer zair, i love it on lucas for example, the only negative about lucas' zair is that it means that he has a tether grab on the ground too but really his zair is a great tool and i personally use it a lot.

who cares, it leaves opponents mentally devastated, thats enough for me and if u want the best attacking taunt, thats easily jiggs up taunt special

 

[Wintermelon43]

Dedede's crouch is the best taunt attack even if it's not an attack. That's how good it is.

 

[LightLV]

Dair???

Without a doubt his worst aerial. I think it holds him back as a character. If he had one as reliable as say, C-Falcon, Falco could be alot more dangerous than he currently is.

But despite his great aerials, other characters still have an easier time killing than him.


Sidenote:
Im one of the few people (apparently) who really doesn't care much for 's UAir. It's comparable to ZSS's, but it's just worse.

It's has -20 KBG compared to hers (90 vs. 110 KBG) and thus is always weaker than ZSS's. With a worse angle to boot (ZSS's is set at 80, which makes it a much more reliable kill AND combo move than a 65/75/85 angle.

It's those little blunders that make me scratch my head with Falco. He's close to being real dangerous but for some reason he just doesn't have that edge he needs. They removed all of his reliable kill moves.

 

[Quarium]

Just coming around to say... Lucas now has the best tether for sure.

 

[John12346]

Well, here are my changes to what the current list looks like. The stuff that's underlined is stuff I think SHOULD change, while everything else are just changes to consider.

Jab
Remove: Robin, Mewtwo
Add: Mario, Ike, Charizard, Villager, Pac-Man, Ryu

Dash Attack
Remove: Samus, Ike, Ganondorf, Pit
Add: Rosalina & Luma, Wario, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Palutena, Robin, Ness, Pac-Man, Cloud

Forward Tilt
Remove: Bowser, Ganondorf, Falco, Samus, King Dedede
Add: Mario, Wario, Donkey Kong, Pit, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk, Mega Man, Lucas, Roy, Cloud

Up Tilt
Remove: Pikachu, Yoshi, Toon Link
Add: Palutena, Ike, Charizard, R.O.B., Shulk

Down Tilt
Remove: Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Bowser, Captain Falcon
Add: Kirby, Shulk, Mega Man, Cloud

Forward Smash
Remove: Lucina, Luigi, Ryu
Add: Rosalina & Luma, Pit, Dark Pit, Sonic

Up Smash
Remove: Yoshi, R.O.B.
Add: Ganondorf, Charizard, Greninja

Down Smash
Remove: Mewtwo, Dr. Mario, Ryu, Lucas, Mr. Game and Watch, Luigi, Mario
Add: Rosalina & Luma, Link, Robin, Kirby, Ness

Neutral Air
Remove: Mewtwo, Ryu, Lucario
Add: Mario, Sheik, Villager, Shulk, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Cloud

Forward Air
Remove: Ike, Ryu
Add: R.O.B., Mii Gunner, Cloud

Back Air
Remove: Robin, Zero Suit Samus, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Samus, Ness
Add: Mario, Mr. Game and Watch, Kirby, Fox, Lucario, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, Ryu

Up Air
Remove: Yoshi, R.O.B., Samus, Fox
Add: Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Palutena, Marth, King Dedede, Meta Knight

Down Air
Remove: Peach, Ryu, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon
Add: Yoshi, Mr. Game and Watch, Mii Swordfighter, Cloud

Neutral B
Remove: Samus, Mewtwo, Mega Man
Add: Kirby, Little Mac(K.O. Punch), Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk

Side B
Remove: Lucario, Bowser, Marth, Roy
Add: Wario, King Dedede, Little Mac, Fox, Lucas

Up B
Remove: Samus, Dr. Mario, Donkey Kong
Add: Bowser, Sheik, Lucario, Mii Brawler(Helicopter Kick)

Down B
Remove: R.O.B., Bowser Jr., Pikachu, Donkey Kong
Add: Toon Link, Mii Brawler(Feint Jump), Cloud

Up Throw
Add: Bowser, Donkey Kong(Cargo Up Throw), Kirby

Down Throw
Add: Peach, Pit, Dark Pit, Dr. Mario

 

[Masonomace]

Oh hey, wouldn't a good standing grab also include ? Basically anything unsafe on shield with enough landing lag or endlag will definitely get answered.

John12346 Yes. Your post is yes. Yes so much.

 

[ARGHETH]

Just from looking at the current top 10s, first up, I have no idea why Robin's Jab is on there. lol Someone feel free to educate me on that.

Because it does a lot of damage at low %s and kills in either direction depending on the jab type.

Dash Attack
Add: Robin

Err...Robin's DA isn't exactly good...

 

[Lavani]

^ adding to that, it's a frame 4 disjointed jab. Great jab all around.

EDIT: Stuff off John#'s post I agree with:

- I see Rosalina's dash attack as above Pit's, but I don't know if there's more to Pit's dash attack than "quick+disjointed and does 11%" that justifies it being ranked.
- Remove Mewtwo dsmash, add Robin.
- Remove Lucario nair for Sheik.
- Remove Jiggs bair. Would replace with Doc's personally.
- Remove Samus upB, add Sheik upB.

Cloud uair should also be added, but I don't know who I'd bump off for him.

 

[John12346]

Because it does a lot of damage at low %s and kills in either direction depending on the jab type.

Err...Robin's DA isn't exactly good...

Keep in mind, only the moves I underlined are the ones I believe should be swapped in. The other ones are just the ones that stood out to a degree.

In Robin's case specifically, I didn't underline it, but his dash attack is actually quite nice. It serves as a pretty good, quick burst option with a lot of active frames. It's not the GREATEST of moves, of course, but considering most dash attacks suck in Smash this one definitely stood out to me, for sure.

 

[Furret24]

Down Air

Add: Mr. Game and Watch

I don't really think G&W's dair is all that good, let alone top 10 material. Strict sweetspot, sourspot has no kill power, meh damage output, completely unsafe on block, and high landing lag. It's only saving grace is how he can survive using it if he still has his second jump uses it above the ledge, allowing it to intercept low recoveries.

I also disagree with some of your other choices but i'll get to them in another post.

 

[Routa]

John12346 I was going to write long reply about the moves you listed you wanted out and wanted in, but would have been way too long post so I shall keep it short...

Forward Air
Remove: Ike

Up B
Remove: Samus, Dr. Mario

*TRIGGERED*

 

[Ffamran]

Without a doubt his worst aerial. I think it holds him back as a character. If he had one as reliable as say, C-Falcon, Falco could be alot more dangerous than he currently is.

But despite his great aerials, other characters still have an easier time killing than him.

Spoiler: Falco stuff better left in the CCI thread or Falco boards

Uh... They have similar Dairs? In startup, both have the same startup of 16 frames along with Ganondorf, Ike, Roy, and Yoshi, except Yoshi's doesn't spike normally, so... The major difference is this: speed. Falco is slow as **** compared to Captain Falcon. Also, power which for Falco is 1% less and 10 less growth to Captain Falcon's Dair. Advantages to Falco's Dair? 1 more active spike frame, 11 late hit frames that do 8%, and not spiking grounded people letting Falco attempt a vertical followup. That's it. Animation-wise, you also have to deal with the fact Falco visibly winds up compared to the Capt. who just lifts his legs up and stomps. As a spike, it and Roy's are the worse out of the frame 16 spikers. Roy's can be chalked up to extremely bad landing lag, 28 frames, for almost no reason and the sour-spot being an actual sour-spot unlike the Capt., Ganondorf, and Ike's where if you sour-spot, you kill the crap out of people horizontally.

Just clearing things up since I've heard people say Captain Falcon's Dair is faster than Falco's when it's not. In general, misconceptions for all characters exist and I'd rather those misconceptions die like the existence of Wind Monado or how Jump Art makes Shulk the lightest character. Hell, there was even confusion over who the lightest character is... Jigglypuff? Hello? She's been like this forever.

Anyway, Falco could lose the ability to spike with Dair and it wouldn't matter to him. He'd be better off with a Dair that strictly sends people up at 80 degrees and if it was faster at frame 11 or something.

Sidenote:
Im one of the few people (apparently) who really doesn't care much for 's UAir. It's comparable to ZSS's, but it's just worse.

It's has -20 KBG compared to hers (90 vs. 110 KBG) and thus is always weaker than ZSS's. With a worse angle to boot (ZSS's is set at 80, which makes it a much more reliable kill AND combo move than a 65/75/85 angle.

Pre-1.0.8 Falco's Uair was basically Kirby's Uair if it did 11% instead of 9%, launched at 68 degrees instead of 70, and had a sour-spot that had a hit angle of 80. It also had 1 less active frame; Falco's was frame 10-14 while Kirby's is frame 10-15. Oh, and different landing data, but that's not really necessary here. The problem with this is that a frame 10 flip kick usually used for combos wasn't really "good". I still wonder why Kirby's Uair hasn't been sped up considering Falco's was and he still keeps a consistent 10% while Kirby's does 9%. Even before, Falco's had stronger base at 27 to Kirby's 20 and the same growth of 100. With Falco's normal jump, he could confirm Bair with the back hit or the sour-spot of Uair. Yes, the sour-spot actually was useful believe it or not.

Now? It's actually more like a Captain Falcon Uair than ZSS's. Difference being that Captain Falcon's starts off with lower knockback since it only has 10 base and 100 growth clean or 8 base and 80 growth late; Falco's does a consistent 10% rather than Captain Falcon's 11% to 9% depending on where he hits, and Falco has 3 hit angles to Captain Falcon's 2 of 70 clean and 30 late. Ganondorf's Uair hit angles would fit more here, but Falco's is more for juggling and setting up like Captain Falcon's than juggling and killing which Ganondorf does and pre-1.0.8 Falco did.

Before and now, the back hit can confirm Bair. Now? With the lower angle from the front hit, Falco can confirm Nair and Fair. The lower startup helps with combos and made his U-throw to Uair more reliable at low percents since Falco has more leeway... Then again, they could have made his and everyone's jump frame 4 instead of 6 to help things out... The problem now is that Nair is reliable with its auto-link angles and it being frame 3 means Falco has even more leeway. Oh, and it does 1% more.

I understand the startup change, but I don't really get the hit angle changes. If people really struggled with the sour-spot they could have just made it so all of the hitboxes did the same knockback and had the same hit angle instead of changing it like this. Changing Falco's startup also makes me question why Kirby's wasn't changed. Before and now, Kirby's Uair is the slowest flip kick Uair. It's power isn't reasonable too when you figure that there are frame 7 and below Uairs that do equal or more damage like Falco's or Luigi's which does 11% clean at frame 5-7.

Summary: Falco's Uair is just average. It used to be slow, but strong with a usable sour-spot, but now it's just an average, generic Uair. ZSS's Uair is out of this world when you think about it. The low damage and high knockback means ZSS can cause a ton of hit stun at early percents and what does hit stun do? Stop you from doing anything. Combined with her ludicrously high growth Boost Kick and you have the ultimate aerial kill setup. Captain Falcon's wacky Uair pales in comparison to ZSS's, but his is better than Falco's when you figure his speed and also high jump lets him chase you around for juggles unlike Falco.

It's those little blunders that make me scratch my head with Falco. He's close to being real dangerous but for some reason he just doesn't have that edge he needs. They removed all of his reliable kill moves.

Uh... In Smash 4? They didn't remove any of his reliable kill moves. Fair was fixed from being stupid like other auto-link moves that could drag you to hell and with Falco's high jump, you did not want him to be able to do that on a regular basis. Fox at least has a lower jump and higher fall speed to make it more difficult along with his Fair not being disjointed. None of his primary kill moves were majorly affected. In some cases, they even added some like Nair became a kill option off-stage thanks to it connecting better which means Falco now has another edgeguard tool to kill you and it's frame 3 on startup. There's also Fair doing 1% more and being 2 frames faster, from 12 to 10, helps. Now, if it were Brawl's frame 6, 11% Fair, but connected like Smash 4's, then we'd be talking about the dumbest edgeguard tool in the game. Falco's still got in order of power, Side Smash, Bair - with it being an aerial, it'll kill earlier than Side Smash the further out he is -, Dtilt, Up Smash, and Down Smash. The problem is that only Bair can really be setup with a back hit of Uair while Nair and Fair can be setup from the front hit, they're not going to kill unless you're close to the blast zone. Falco's problem is reliable kill setups which he lacks not reliable kill moves which he's got plenty.

Now, if we're talking about previous games... Smash 4 took away Melee and Brawl's Dair, Brawl took away Melee's frame 13 Side Smash while Smash 4 added 1 frame of startup to it for no reason, 16 to 17, Brawl took away Melee's Reflector which was pretty broken when he could setup to basically whatever he wanted from a frame 1 move, Brawl took away his Melee Fire Bird and left Falco with utter crap compared to Fire Fox and Fire Wolf, Smash 4 took away Brawl and Melee's chain-grab which it [chain-grabs] were a sin, especially in Brawl, Smash 4 took away his gatling combo... to this day, I'm still not sure why it works, but it was pretty cool and could have stayed with some balancing, and Smash 4 took away his Brawl Blaster which was the most broken projectile in Smash history. Brawl Blaster didn't kill, but it could cause hit stun which you could follow-up from. Counting all of that up, it's dash attack to Up Smash (gatling combo), Side Smash, Dair, D-throw, Blaster, Fire Bird, and Reflector. Out of those, Side Smash remains, but at 4 frames slower than in Melee and 1 frame slower than in Brawl while retaining its power and gaining transcendence in Smash 4? Dair kills, but it's 11 frames slower than Melee and Brawl. The rest outside of Fire Bird didn't kill; they set up Falco's kills and only D-throw remains, but not as insane as in Brawl. So, Falco lost 2 reliable kill moves and 3 kill setups.

Cloud uair should also be added, but I don't know who I'd bump off for him.

Samus maybe? It's a good move, but it can drop people which I'd say is one major strike against it. Reliability matters and no matter how good a move is, being unreliable is never a quality of a "best" move. Or Yoshi's since it's just a fast Uair that does 12%. Range isn't that good on in which is weird since Yoshi's head, legs, and tail all stretch for his other moves.

I would also advocate for Sonic's Ftilt to replace Falco's Ftilt. Why? Sonic's is 3 frames faster and hits twice for a total of 11% or 9%. Coupled with Sonic's much higher run speed, slightly faster walk speed, and better knockback on his Ftilt, Sonic's is going to be much more reliable at lower percents and in terms of using it in neutral when he can move while Falco can't. I would also advocate for the drop of Falco's Dtilt and Bair. Falco's Dtilt for perhaps Wii Fit Trainer's. Yes, WFT's is slower at frame 10 (hit is 10 while a windbox exists on frame 7), but WFT will consistently get 12% while slipping low. Falco's is a good Dtilt, but it's not consistent, requiring you to get closer, losing its disjoint advantage to get the 11% or 12% hit. If we're looking for just disjointed Dtilts, then Lucina, Marth, Meta Knight, or the Pits should be on there. Oh, and maybe Wario or Triple D for Dtilt?

As for Bair where people are thinking I've gone mad and trust me, that already happened a long time ago, Falco's Bair's greatest weakness is its short range and Falco's average hop preventing him from abusing it like Dr. Mario and Wolf can with their low hop. I would advocate for Dr. Mario, Luigi, or Wii Fit Trainer for Bair if we're looking for an explosive, fast Bair that has better range. Mario and Sheik are also candidates in terms of their Bairs being versatile and aiding in setups while being fast and decently-ranged compared to Falco's. Fox's Bair having stupid auto-cancel (like Falco's) could work as well since it's kind of a slightly weaker ZSS Bair knockback-wise, Ryu's can be considered with its long and large hitbox, Palutena's can work because it's invincible, Pikachu's amazing for gimps and damage racking, but it lacks range as it's a central hitbox, and perhaps Toon Link or Yoshi's? Yes, today is undermine Falco day. It is a glorious day where we roast our lovable, blue pheasant.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Surely luigis Down B has to be one of the best in the game.
It can be used to land(not always safe), gimp, and recover.

 

[Pixel_]

Remove Up-Throw. Was this before the nerf?

 

[Mario766]

Cloud's Dash Attack isn't better than Ike's.

Similar endlag, Cloud's is 5 less, but is still just as unsafe as Ike's. Ike's does 14, 3 more than Cloud's, and kills much earlier. Ike also slides more than Cloud's, leading to more coverage.

Cloud's Up Air is also like, top 5 Up-Air easily. Lasts 18 frames, out-ranges almost every down air in the game, does 13 damage, combos into itself, kill set-ups out of it, beats air dodges by itself, as the move lasts only 7 frames less than air dodge does. The move has everything going for it, with no down sides. Do I also mention it has only 15 frames of landing lag if you don't auto cancel it...but that doesn't matter

Because the move AUTO CANCELS ONE FRAME AFTER THE HITBOX ENDS.

I'd also put Peach's down air over G&W's, but that's just me.

 

[LightLV]

Spoiler: Falco stuff better left in the CCI thread or Falco board

Uh... They have similar Dairs? In startup, both have the same startup of 16 frames along with Ganondorf, Ike, Roy, and Yoshi, except Yoshi's doesn't spike normally, so... The major difference is this: speed. Falco is slow as **** compared to Captain Falcon. Also, power which for Falco is 1% less and 10 less growth to Captain Falcon's Dair. Advantages to Falco's Dair? 1 more active spike frame, 11 late hit frames that do 8%, and not spiking grounded people letting Falco attempt a vertical followup. That's it. Animation-wise, you also have to deal with the fact Falco visibly winds up compared to the Capt. who just lifts his legs up and stomps. As a spike, it and Roy's are the worse out of the frame 16 spikers. Roy's can be chalked up to extremely bad landing lag, 28 frames, for almost no reason and the sour-spot being an actual sour-spot unlike the Capt., Ganondorf, and Ike's where if you sour-spot, you kill the crap out of people horizontally.

Just clearing things up since I've heard people say Captain Falcon's Dair is faster than Falco's when it's not. In general, misconceptions for all characters exist and I'd rather those misconceptions die like the existence of Wind Monado or how Jump Art makes Shulk the lightest character. Hell, there was even confusion over who the lightest character is... Jigglypuff? Hello? She's been like this forever.

Anyway, Falco could lose the ability to spike with Dair and it wouldn't matter to him. He'd be better off with a Dair that strictly sends people up at 80 degrees and if it was faster at frame 11 or something.


Pre-1.0.8 Falco's Uair was basically Kirby's Uair if it did 11% instead of 9%, launched at 68 degrees instead of 70, and had a sour-spot that had a hit angle of 80. It also had 1 less active frame; Falco's was frame 10-14 while Kirby's is frame 10-15. Oh, and different landing data, but that's not really necessary here. The problem with this is that a frame 10 flip kick usually used for combos wasn't really "good". I still wonder why Kirby's Uair hasn't been sped up considering Falco's was and he still keeps a consistent 10% while Kirby's does 9%. Even before, Falco's had stronger base at 27 to Kirby's 20 and the same growth of 100. With Falco's normal jump, he could confirm Bair with the back hit or the sour-spot of Uair. Yes, the sour-spot actually was useful believe it or not.

Now? It's actually more like a Captain Falcon Uair than ZSS's. Difference being that Captain Falcon's starts off with lower knockback since it only has 10 base and 100 growth clean or 8 base and 80 growth late; Falco's does a consistent 10% rather than Captain Falcon's 11% to 9% depending on where he hits, and Falco has 3 hit angles to Captain Falcon's 2 of 70 clean and 30 late. Ganondorf's Uair hit angles would fit more here, but Falco's is more for juggling and setting up like Captain Falcon's than juggling and killing which Ganondorf does and pre-1.0.8 Falco did.

Before and now, the back hit can confirm Bair. Now? With the lower angle from the front hit, Falco can confirm Nair and Fair. The lower startup helps with combos and made his U-throw to Uair more reliable at low percents since Falco has more leeway... Then again, they could have made his and everyone's jump frame 4 instead of 6 to help things out... The problem now is that Nair is reliable with its auto-link angles and it being frame 3 means Falco has even more leeway. Oh, and it does 1% more.

I understand the startup change, but I don't really get the hit angle changes. If people really struggled with the sour-spot they could have just made it so all of the hitboxes did the same knockback and had the same hit angle instead of changing it like this. Changing Falco's startup also makes me question why Kirby's wasn't changed. Before and now, Kirby's Uair is the slowest flip kick Uair. It's power isn't reasonable too when you figure that there are frame 7 and below Uairs that do equal or more damage like Falco's or Luigi's which does 11% clean at frame 5-7.

Summary: Falco's Uair is just average. It used to be slow, but strong with a usable sour-spot, but now it's just an average, generic Uair. ZSS's Uair is out of this world when you think about it. The low damage and high knockback means ZSS can cause a ton of hit stun at early percents and what does hit stun do? Stop you from doing anything. Combined with her ludicrously high growth Boost Kick and you have the ultimate aerial kill setup. Captain Falcon's wacky Uair pales in comparison to ZSS's, but his is better than Falco's when you figure his speed and also high jump lets him chase you around for juggles unlike Falco.


Uh... In Smash 4? They didn't remove any of his reliable kill moves. Fair was fixed from being stupid like other auto-link moves that could drag you to hell and with Falco's high jump, you did not want him to be able to do that on a regular basis. Fox at least has a lower jump and higher fall speed to make it more difficult along with his Fair not being disjointed. None of his primary kill moves were majorly affected. In some cases, they even added some like Nair became a kill option off-stage thanks to it connecting better which means Falco now has another edgeguard tool to kill you and it's frame 3 on startup. There's also Fair doing 1% more and being 2 frames faster, from 12 to 10, helps. Now, if it were Brawl's frame 6, 11% Fair, but connected like Smash 4's, then we'd be talking about the dumbest edgeguard tool in the game. Falco's still got in order of power, Side Smash, Bair - with it being an aerial, it'll kill earlier than Side Smash the further out he is -, Dtilt, Up Smash, and Down Smash. The problem is that only Bair can really be setup with a back hit of Uair while Nair and Fair can be setup from the front hit, they're not going to kill unless you're close to the blast zone. Falco's problem is reliable kill setups which he lacks not reliable kill moves which he's got plenty.

Now, if we're talking about previous games... Smash 4 took away Melee and Brawl's Dair, Brawl took away Melee's frame 13 Side Smash while Smash 4 added 1 frame of startup to it for no reason, 16 to 17, Brawl took away Melee's Reflector which was pretty broken when he could setup to basically whatever he wanted from a frame 1 move, Brawl took away his Melee Fire Bird and left Falco with utter crap compared to Fire Fox and Fire Wolf, Smash 4 took away Brawl and Melee's chain-grab which it [chain-grabs] were a sin, especially in Brawl, Smash 4 took away his gatling combo... to this day, I'm still not sure why it works, but it was pretty cool and could have stayed with some balancing, and Smash 4 took away his Brawl Blaster which was the most broken projectile in Smash history. Brawl Blaster didn't kill, but it could cause hit stun which you could follow-up from. Counting all of that up, it's dash attack to Up Smash (gatling combo), Side Smash, Dair, D-throw, Blaster, Fire Bird, and Reflector. Out of those, Side Smash remains, but at 4 frames slower than in Melee and 1 frame slower than in Brawl while retaining its power and gaining transcendence in Smash 4? Dair kills, but it's 11 frames slower than Melee and Brawl. The rest outside of Fire Bird didn't kill; they set up Falco's kills and only D-throw remains, but not as insane as in Brawl. So, Falco lost 2 reliable kill moves and 3 kill setups.

Spoiler: Falco stuff still better left in the CCI thread or Falco board continued

The reason his Dair is bad has nothing to do with its speed or its actives, it's its size. Falco's Dair was so spectacular because it was a high-active move with a spike angle. But in Smash 4, the form hasn't really changed but it has essentially become a precision attack. This is why you see characters like Ganondorf, Yoshi and Cfalcon land off-stage spikes so much more frequently than Falco, the attack is just easier to land.

Yes, he gained some edgeguard ability in Nair and Fair...but Falco's strength was his ability to KILL you offstage, not edgeguard you. These days your typical Captain Falcon is far more dangerous offstage than Falco is. Speaking of Falcon, again, you can compare his Uair to Captain Falcon's as well....but Falcon's is way better. Again, because it's stronger, and has a much bigger hitbox.

is just a victim of your typical overcompensating nerf. Everything that was previously integral to his old playstyle has been deliberately nerfed SO BAD that they're currently the worst moves in his arsenal -- Laser is probably the worst projectile in the game (I'd tie it with 's ) and he has the among the worst Dairs of its type. All of the moves that should be stock enders for him (Dair, Uair, Upsmash, Fsmash) are better on other characters.

They should have turned Falco into a character who specializes in Star KO potential. This would have been a good change, since he has great combos and his normals are excellent. But they murdered that when they changed his Uair. Now he's just mediocre at everything.

Now you just beat someone up and fish for a Bair, Dsmash or some offstage Fair/Nair gimp...which is dangerous to Falco because his recovery is complete trash. Again, one of the worst of its type.

 

[Lavani]

Oh, I didn't even notice Yoshi on the uair list. Yeah, replace him with Cloud.

Sammy's uair is seriously good and sets a bunch of stuff up at all percents, both rising and falling. I wouldn't take it off the list as of current.

 

[aεrgiα]

if we're including all mii moves, i think gunners grenades(neutral special 3) and bomb drop(down special 2) should be added, along with mii sword chakram(side special 2) and the obvious mii brawler choices

 

[Conn1496]

if we're including all mii moves, i think gunners grenades(neutral special 3) and bomb drop(down special 2) should be added, along with mii sword chakram(side special 2) and the obvious mii brawler choices

Actually, yeah, Gunner Grenades are just about one of the most broken moves in the game IMO. I mean, they're on Mii Gunner, so they're not a total threat or anything (Since near no-one plays Mii Gunner and the whole Mii debacle is another story anyway.), but when used right, those things are brutal.

 

[Masonomace]

Would anyone care enough to contribute / add their opinion on this matter?:

-Ledge options
-Floor options

Aside from that, I don't have a clear idea of the top 10 for standing grab & pummel. Also these are in no particular order:

Standing grab: (insert someone here)

Why: Traction plays a neat role with punishing out of shield. Characters with a very high traction value seem to have a better time shield grabbing after a hit connects on their shield per-say they ran & shielded a move on reaction. However, it can be easy to get out-spaced by your opponent in footsies per-say they outrange your standing grab range when you approach with shield. This leads to grab range becoming another important factor, but I'm not too sure of grab ranges. I am aware that Lucario has good grab range though. More factors include a character's initial dash speed to how early they can act shielding after the initial dash sequence transitions into running, since you cannot shield during a dash / foxtrot. Positioning yourself to be somewhere to shield an oncoming attack as their landing option can be very effective with the right character, such as Lucario for having the highest traction value while having one of the best standing grabs in terms of frame data & range for a melee-ranged character.

So in short, high traction, good grab range, good grab frame data, & good mobility leads to a Best Of Standing grab list. I'll include hitbox activity of the grab & the FAF for the sake of, "I whiffed grab 'cus I got out-spaced & didn't perfect shield". Altough, some standing grabs can beat the spotdodge or back roll options such as Zero Suit Samus' grab. And I'll list the characters I feel can make the top 10 given their statistics from highest to lowest traction starting with Lucario:
frame 6-7 | FAF=30 has the highest traction, & has fairly decent running speed on top of good standing grab range
frame 6-7 | FAF=27 has terrible running speed despite making it up with good air speed to landing & good grab frame data
frame 8-9 | FAF=30 has high traction & fairly good frame data, but only has average run speed & Chomp is basically better
frame 16-19, frame 16-29 | FAF=69 has good traction, fast running speed, & a good tether range albeit is slow
frame 9-10 | FAF=33 has good traction, fast running speed, & a mighty decent grab
frame 6-7 | FAF=32 doesn't have great running speed, but has good grab frame data & fairly good traction
frame 7-8 | FAF=36 has terrible running speed & probably poor grab range, yet all standing grabs have bad range anyway
frame 6-7 | FAF=36 is basically a faster princess than Peach, having just as good grab startup with only a bit more endlag
frame 7-8 | FAF=32 possesses good running speed & good grab frame data
frame 8-9 | FAF=32 has all-around average statistics for his standing grab imo

Now, after Falco having the 10th highest traction value, I'll include honorable mentions for likely grabbing candidates for whatever reason(s):
frame 12-17 | FAF=62 has great tether range to punish a lot of unsafe moves on block, but has poor running speed
frame 12-18 | FAF=62 is similar to Link but has slightly less grab range but faster running speed
frame 10-19 | FAF= 50 possesses good grab range when using the Blue pikmin to make up for average run speed
frame 16-25 | FAF=76 has great tether range similar to Link, but grab frame data is slow & run speed is decent.
Unknown traction value? | frame 12-19 | FAF=46 has decently good tether range despite of his average running speed

I don't know who else to recommend. I guess Sonic or any character with fast running speed can make the cut, but yeah.
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Pummels to me base off a couple of factors: One being raw damage. And two being pummel speed to help unstale your moves from the que more quickly. I don't know pummel speeds, but considering that your opponent has the option to mash from a grab if you choose to pummel at all before a throw, I'll rate 10 characters based on very limited knowledge in no particular order:

Pummel: (Insert other characters here)

 

[aεrgiα]

Would anyone care enough to contribute / add their opinion on this matter?:

-Ledge options
-Floor options

Aside from that, I don't have a clear idea of the top 10 for standing grab & pummel. Also these are in no particular order:

Standing grab: (insert someone here)

Why: Traction plays a neat role with punishing out of shield. Characters with a very high traction value seem to have a better time shield grabbing after a hit connects on their shield per-say they ran & shielded a move on reaction. However, it can be easy to get out-spaced by your opponent in footsies per-say they outrange your standing grab range when you approach with shield. This leads to grab range becoming another important factor, but I'm not too sure of grab ranges. I am aware that Lucario has good grab range though. More factors include a character's initial dash speed to how early they can act shielding after the initial dash sequence transitions into running, since you cannot shield during a dash / foxtrot. Positioning yourself to be somewhere to shield an oncoming attack as their landing option can be very effective with the right character, such as Lucario for having the highest traction value while having one of the best standing grabs in terms of frame data & range for a melee-ranged character.

So in short, high traction, good grab range, good grab frame data, & good mobility leads to a Best Of Standing grab list. I'll include hitbox activity of the grab & the FAF for the sake of, "I whiffed grab 'cus I got out-spaced & didn't perfect shield". Altough, some standing grabs can beat the spotdodge or back roll options such as Zero Suit Samus' grab. And I'll list the characters I feel can make the top 10 given their statistics from highest to lowest traction starting with Lucario:
frame 6-7 | FAF=30 has the highest traction, & has fairly decent running speed on top of good standing grab range
frame 6-7 | FAF=27 has terrible running speed despite making it up with good air speed to landing & good grab frame data
frame 8-9 | FAF=30 has high traction & fairly good frame data, but only has average run speed & Chomp is basically better
frame 16-19, frame 16-29 | FAF=69 has good traction, fast running speed, & a good tether range albeit is slow
frame 9-10 | FAF=33 has good traction, fast running speed, & a mighty decent grab
frame 6-7 | FAF=32 doesn't have great running speed, but has good grab frame data & fairly good traction
frame 7-8 | FAF=36 has terrible running speed & probably poor grab range, yet all standing grabs have bad range anyway
frame 6-7 | FAF=36 is basically a faster princess than Peach, having just as good grab startup with only a bit more endlag
frame 7-8 | FAF=32 possesses good running speed & good grab frame data
frame 8-9 | FAF=32 has all-around average statistics for his standing grab imo

Now, after Falco having the 10th highest traction value, I'll include honorable mentions for likely grabbing candidates for whatever reason(s):
frame 12-17 | FAF=62 has great tether range to punish a lot of unsafe moves on block, but has poor running speed
frame 12-18 | FAF=62 is similar to Link but has slightly less grab range but faster running speed
frame 10-19 | FAF= 50 possesses good grab range when using the Blue pikmin to make up for average run speed
frame 16-25 | FAF=76 has great tether range similar to Link, but grab frame data is slow & run speed is decent.
Unknown traction value? | frame 12-19 | FAF=46 has decently good tether range despite of his average running speed

I don't know who else to recommend. I guess Sonic or any character with fast running speed can make the cut, but yeah.
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Pummels to me base off a couple of factors: One being raw damage. And two being pummel speed to help unstale your moves from the que more quickly. I don't know pummel speeds, but considering that your opponent has the option to mash from a grab if you choose to pummel at all before a throw, I'll rate 10 characters based on very limited knowledge in no particular order:

Pummel: (Insert other characters here)

well ill admit to not being the most knowledgable when it comes to everybodies grabs, i will say that if youre going for oos grabs, most tethers really shouldnt be on the list as they are slow compared to normal grabs also, im pretty sure lucas has the shortest tether(its even shorter than yoshis grab(on the ground at least, as zair, its range is actually close to links o.O ) ) with its notable advantage obviously being the reduced endlang on it this patch
also, this is more of a question because ive seen it said a few times now, do blue pikmin really increase the grab range? because i thought blue pikmin had the same grab range as yellow and red pikmin,i thought it just did more damage(and consequently, more knockback) with white being the only ones with extended range on his grab:/
if youre going by damage, i think white pikmin could be include in the list, but then you get into the discussion of special states/cases(pikmin, shulks active monados) and how they should be handled.

for standing grab, i think bowser and marcina should be incuded in the list, as to my knowledge, those 2 have the largest range of all non tethers(special cases like vill and pac not included) and marcinas grab is frame 7-8 with faf 30 whilst bowsers is frame 9-10, faf 39 and im not sure, but does it count as an "attack" meaning it gets that weird bowser armour on it?(its also the longest ranged non-tether/special case grab) i believe palutenas also has great range on it, along with the great frame data, so i second that, the others i dont know enough about to make a call really :/ though ganons grab range is pitiful, its like hes a t-rex

 

[arbustopachon]

For standing grabs Charizard's should be there. What with it being frame 8 with a Faf of 34 and the second longest ranged standard grab after Greninjas. Plus his pummel is decent. His Traction is terribad tho.
Also yeah his jab is really good.
Im not that sure about adding his U-smash. Sure is fast disjointed and kills well. But the endlag is meh n if the oponent is behind zard it will sometimes fail to link both hits making you F-smash bait.

 

[Masonomace]

Tagging FullMoon because Greninja-related post.
I haven't replied to users yet, but I have some video proof of Greninja's pivot grab getting a spotlight worthy of top 10 pivot grabs:
https://youtu.be/_Rs3l6FzulE?t=55s

Go at 0:56 seconds into the video & watch Greninja's pivot grab catch me in shield from that far away. Sure the frame data is frame 15-16 with a FAF of 37, but that range caught me by surprise when it happened in my set Wednesday. Although, pivot grabs are generally better since they do improve grab range & are able to grab crouching characters like Wii Fit Trainer Kirby & GaW so.

 

[ArcGale]

IMO Ryu's jab should be top 10. Reason for this is that his jab is not only frame 2 but it combos into and every other Ryu has.
Easy kill combo right there.

 

[FullMoon]

Tagging FullMoon because Greninja-related post.
I haven't replied to users yet, but I have some video proof of Greninja's pivot grab getting a spotlight worthy of top 10 pivot grabs:
https://youtu.be/_Rs3l6FzulE?t=55s

Go at 0:56 seconds into the video & watch Greninja's pivot grab catch me in shield from that far away. Sure the frame data is frame 15-16 with a FAF of 37, but that range caught me by surprise when it happened in my set Wednesday. Although, pivot grabs are generally better since they do improve grab range & are able to grab crouching characters like Wii Fit Trainer Kirby & GaW so.

I did mention Greninja's pivot grab before and yeah the range is huge and it's pretty safe to throw out due to how Greninja slides while using it, the only downside to it is that it comes out late.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Stuff

I disagree with quite a few things here. Some that stand out are removing Robin's jab, Pit's dash attack, all of the utilts listed, Ganondorf's dtilt, all of the usmashes listed, Ike's fair, Robin's bair, Jigglypuff's bair, Falcon's dair, and R.O.B.'s down B. And even SUGGESTING that ZSS's bair should be removed is crazy talk, quite frankly. There are some other removals I disagree with as well, and a few additions I disagree with. There is also some stuff I do agree with, but I feel way more strongly about disagreeing with the previously mentioned removals.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Updating a list I made long ago:

Jab:
Ftilt:
Utilt:

Dtilt:



Nair:
Fair:
Bair:
Uair:
Dair:



Fsmash:
Usmash:

Dsmash:



Neutral B:
Side B:
Up B:
Down B:



Grab:
Pivot Grab:
Dash Grab:
Pummel:



Uthrow:
Dthrow:
Fthrow:
Bthrow:



Dash attack:

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Updating a list I made long ago:

Jab:
Ftilt:
Utilt:

Dtilt:



Nair:
Fair:
Bair:
Uair:
Dair:



Fsmash:
Usmash:

Dsmash:



Neutral B:
Side B:
Up B:
Down B:



Grab:
Pivot Grab:
Dash Grab:
Pummel:



Uthrow:
Dthrow:
Fthrow:
Bthrow:



Dash attack:

I'm sensing some bias here...

 

[ARGHETH]

List

Yeah, you're going to need to explain, like, all of this. For one thing, what's up with all the Charizards and Ganondorfs? And there's no way Shulk has the best Dthrow.

Let's look at your list (Note: these are the ones I'm bothering to respond to):
Jab: Robin's hits on the same frame, does more damage, and kills earlier. And his isn't even the best.
Fair, Uair, Dair: There's approximately no way Ganondorf has the best set of aerials.
Usmash:

.??? This move is laggy and slow. It hits on the same frame as Shulk's and has the same FAF, but has half the active frames.
Neutral B: The charge shot characters called. They want their spot back.
Side B: Quick Draw > Flare Blitz
Up B: Almost every high tier ever has a better Up B.
Down B: At this point, I'm wondering if you forgot ZSS and Sheik exist in this game.
Grab: LOLOL
Dthrow: Why? Looking at the Shulk boards, there's followups (kinda), but they're heavily Art dependent and generally aren't as good as those with reliable followups/combos into a kill (ZSS and Ike, for example).

 

[aεrgiα]

Yeah, you're going to need to explain, like, all of this. For one thing, what's up with all the Charizards and Ganondorfs? And there's no way Shulk has the best Dthrow.

Let's look at your list (Note: these are the ones I'm bothering to respond to):
Jab: Robin's hits on the same frame, does more damage, and kills earlier. And his isn't even the best.
Fair, Uair, Dair: There's approximately no way Ganondorf has the best set of aerials.
Usmash:

.??? This move is laggy and slow. It hits on the same frame as Shulk's and has the same FAF, but has half the active frames.
Neutral B: The charge shot characters called. They want their spot back.
Side B: Quick Draw > Flare Blitz
Up B: Almost every high tier ever has a better Up B.
Down B: At this point, I'm wondering if you forgot ZSS and Sheik exist in this game.
Grab: LOLOL
Dthrow: Why? Looking at the Shulk boards, there's followups (kinda), but they're heavily Art dependent and generally aren't as good as those with reliable followups/combos into a kill (ZSS and Ike, for example).

before anything else, i agree with pretty much all of what you said, just 2 things: ganons uair is actually really really scary, i mean it doesnt have the best juggle potential, but its amazing for edgeguarding, comes out frame 6, does 12 damage and ac out of a sh i believe. bair is also a really good aerial(but he didnt have this in his list, just saying bc it is one of his aerials) which is better than falcons in every way, yet falcon was in his number 1 spot
and i think shulks dthrow could potentially make this list, not because of the follow ups it has, but rather because its a kill throw although realistically, without smash monado its too weak to make the list :/

 

[Masonomace]

I guess I'll give up on the standing grab, dash grab, pivot grab, & pummel.

More directional throws could get attention. Fthrow Uthrow & Dthrow still have open spaces & holy stain needs to be in Uthrow now. I want to say that either , , , or could be a candidate for Uthrow, though I am curious of Kirby's new Uthrow kill power in comparison to or . And why isn't in Dthrow? It's still pretty good at what followups he can get at low to medium percents.

EDIT: I'd totally be in favor of suggesting Crouches in the Best Of list. Wii Fit Trainer along with Kirby G&W Jigglypuff & others could make top 10 easily.

well ill admit to not being the most knowledgable when it comes to everybodies grabs, i will say that if youre going for oos grabs, most tethers really shouldnt be on the list as they are slow compared to normal grabs also, im pretty sure lucas has the shortest tether(its even shorter than yoshis grab(on the ground at least, as zair, its range is actually close to links o.O ) ) with its notable advantage obviously being the reduced endlang on it this patch
also, this is more of a question because ive seen it said a few times now, do blue pikmin really increase the grab range? because i thought blue pikmin had the same grab range as yellow and red pikmin,i thought it just did more damage(and consequently, more knockback) with white being the only ones with extended range on his grab:/
if youre going by damage, i think white pikmin could be include in the list, but then you get into the discussion of special states/cases(pikmin, shulks active monados) and how they should be handled.

for standing grab, i think bowser and marcina should be incuded in the list, as to my knowledge, those 2 have the largest range of all non tethers(special cases like vill and pac not included) and marcinas grab is frame 7-8 with faf 30 whilst bowsers is frame 9-10, faf 39 and im not sure, but does it count as an "attack" meaning it gets that weird bowser armour on it?(its also the longest ranged non-tether/special case grab) i believe palutenas also has great range on it, along with the great frame data, so i second that, the others i dont know enough about to make a call really :/ though ganons grab range is pitiful, its like hes a t-rex

I want to say that Blue pikmin have generally the same standing grab range as Red & Yellow pikmin, 'cus they kinda look the same to me. But yes Blue pikmin have stronger damaging throws. White pikmin definitely have more standing grab range. So based off pummel alone, White pikmin & Monado Enchant potentially deal the most damage, but like you said that goes into the realm of stat-changing specifics.

But yeah grab rankings is kinda bland due to lack of knowledge honestly.

Dthrow:

Interesting, but I wouldn't rank Shulk's Dthrow to be on the Best Of list for reasons. You have guaranteed combos at low percents with Monado Speed & Enchant, and Enchant has neat combos at mid to mid-high percentages with Dash attack or Fair, but yeah. At least Smash art's Dthrow is Shulk's strongest kill throw which is better than Ike's Dthrow who currently is the only character who's Dthrow is his kill throw, but it's because the character is Shulk & Monado arts are a delicate thing to process for a Best Of moves list. Even though the combination of Monado Speed Enchant & Smash would make Shulk's Dthrow on par with Ike's Dthrow or better than his throw in some cases, you have to juggle arts by deactivating them & cycling to the next one to select it, & that's not as consistent as Ike just going for the next grab setup after his previous one. However, it's possible to make Shulk Dthrow very formidable once you've mastered your buffered art deactivation & art cycling rhythm.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I just want to say that Mewtwo's Fair is absolutely amazing now.
Kills at 100%
Combos into Dtilt, Utilt and jab-lock. As well as a plethora of other not quite as good options.
Can be used with phasing (SHAD)
Is +2 on shields.

 

[arbustopachon]

Just a reminder that charizard's jab is not good because it kills. It's good because jab2 sets up kill moves like grab,up-b and usmash. Sure they aren't guranteed but they work provided you guess right (Also it doesn't expend your recovery or your side-b).
Also i dunno why would anyone dismiss his grab, sure his dash grab and pivot grab are bad, but his standing grab has stupid range and isn't really slow at all.
Tho yeah his side b and neutral b are in not way the best of their kind. especially side b.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Considering the last time he's updated this was in November.....I think it's safe to assume we can make up our own list about each character.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Fair, Uair, Dair: There's approximately no way Ganondorf has the best set of aerials.

Ganondorf's aerials are at least top 10 overall, they're just on a character with limited mobility, and can be somewhat laggy on whiff though usually safe on shield when spaced due to their power. No way his Fair is among the best though. Bair, Uair, and Dair are contenders though.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh jeez I forgot to suggest an addition for . Her Uthrow is also good.

 

[Vyrnx]

I kinda want to address some of these Samus moves that are getting challenged--with quite a degree of certainty I don't really understand, underlines on moves that could be listed, but underlined? Samus is meh because of overarching character traits--size, fall speed, mobility, (grab), but her moveset (other than grab) is legitimately good, with many great moves. It's counterproductive to go through listing moves that should be removed because they are on a low tier--low tiers can have good moves and be bad for other reasons.

Just in order of what Numbers said

Dash attack: no... For some reason people really don't believe Samus mains or Trifroze that this move is good--for that matter, everyone who plays the characters knows it is good, and yet nobody listens.

Ftilt: All of Samus' tilts are fantastic, utilt and dtilt get left out because of the more competitive nature of those moves. But with Samus' ftilt, the move's sweetspot and big range give it utility that basically no other ftilt has. When people list ftilts that are a third the range/lack a great deal of utility/etc, I get the feeling they are being listed because they are on high tier characters. The move's biggest downfall is that when you are standing right up next to the opponent below 15%, it is unsafe on hit, but by, "standing right up next to the opponent," I am saying using 25% of the move's huge range... Which, for a midrange character, why would that happen and why would you use ftilt up close when unlike most characters, you don't have to? It's fast and solid. However, in terms of top 10 ftilts, WFTs. would have to end up knocking off Samus, Falco, or Dedede. But the definitiveness with, "This move is bad," seems unfounded to me.

Bair: great move but not top 10 because bairs in this game are good.

Uair: Samus' uair is used for everything. Rising uair combos to CS, bair, uair, up b, fair, sometimes nair, and sets up air dodge traps to dair. Uair breaks a surprising number of combos since its frame 5 and covers almost her whole body. Falling uair is easy to land from a SHAD. Crossed up on shields, it is tough to challenge due to low landing lag. So, the way Link's jab 1-2 can combo into many moves because of the way it lifts enemies up a tad, Samus' uair does the same. Samus' falling uair combos will not register as true but they are. Falling uair to jab to fsmash is a kill confirm, falling uair to up b is the most used because it is a reliable 20 damage that can kill, falling uair to dtilt is totally inescapable, and on many characters, they can't escape falling uair to utilt, which gives us ridiculous conversions. Lots of other mixups like falling uair to jab to CS, pivot grab, etc. Raw uair kills as well. Watch any Samus and you will see uair all the dang time.

Neutral b: idk... Samus' is good and neutral b's are meh. WFT's needs to be added absolutely (and all of the chargeable projectiles need to stay up there). But just consider what a chargeable projectile is (well, a WFT main knows), the ability to have access to a high damage, high KO power move whenever you want after it is charged. Critics of chargeable moves (who need to just go away) say ahh but you will never have it charged... But we will. Like the argument that there is no way to punish Cloud for charging down b, Samus has the same options out of charging neutral b, and saying she will never have space to charge is assuming she will never land a move the whole match, because all of her moves result directly in or combo to a move with horizontal knock back that gives her space. And once we do have it charged, we can use it whenever we want for whatever we want. Samus' CS is really fast in the air, much faster than other chargeables, which is pretty good, especially when you look at using it for tech chase followups and punishes. Samus has combos and tech chases to CS, which the other characters lack because of projectile speed or their moveset. And again, it KOs early.

Up b: Third fastest up b OOS in the game, good damage, KOs, reliable, has invincibility frames, good recovery move. If Samus is camping on a platform CS charging, attacking her shield can result in early percent KOs from up b OOS, especially on stages like Duck Hunt and Town and City. ZeRo found out the hard way when he took Westside to Duck Hunt. Literally no reason to remove this move.

 

[SvartWolf]

Why isn't Monado Arts on the list of the top 10s Neutral Bs? unlike cloud limit, this is a mechanic tied completely to only one move , even if it has repercussions in shulk whole moveset. to the point that if kirby copy shulk´s neutral B he also gets the whole mechanic.

in fact sheiks neutral B is considered one of the best in the game right? but do you think that she would switch hers with monado arts having the chance? i think she would... and probably be banned little after as how broken she would become.

in fact probably (besides range) the only reason shulk's frame data is so bad is to compensate for the Monado Arts.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Why isn't Monado Arts on the list of the top 10s Neutral Bs? unlike cloud limit, this is a mechanic tied completely to only one move , even if it has repercussions in shulk whole moveset. to the point that if kirby copy shulk´s neutral B he also gets the whole mechanic.

in fact sheiks neutral B is considered one of the best in the game right? but do you think that she would switch hers with monado arts having the chance? i think she would... and probably be banned little after as how broken she would become.

in fact probably (besides range) the only reason shulk's frame data is so bad is to compensate for the Monado Arts.

Monado Arts should be ranked best B move. It would break any number of characters if they got it, including characters who normally would be considered weak.

 

[ARGHETH]

in fact sheiks neutral B is considered one of the best in the game right? but do you think that she would switch hers with monado arts having the chance? i think she would... and probably be banned little after as how broken she would become.

I'm not arguing this again, but long story short, it's very subjective. If Sheik loses needles, she loses her ability to out-camp campers. She (and other characters, I had a long discussion on Robin a page or two back) have a shifted game plan with the arts, so it really can't be considered definitely the best.
Top 10, though, definitely.

in fact probably (besides range) the only reason shulk's frame data is so bad is to compensate for the Monado Arts.

But Arts don't change frame data (startup/endlag, at least)...that's probably mainly to compensate for range.