Best moves of each type

[Planty]

I think he meant to say that Shulk has such bad frame data to keep him balanced because Monado arts are so good.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh. Sudden discussion of Monado arts? Not complaining.

Also, I want to mention if I haven't already, that a Monado art activation allows Shulk to completely cancel landing lag. This means that the moment you're airborne & the first frame you are grounded taking landing lag, the art activation taking place will cancel all of the lag & grant Shulk frame 1 - 14 intangibility, with a FAF of 6.

Shulk is also the only character in the game to get away with fast fall airdodging to the ground because the art activation will cancel the landing lag for that too. So essentially, you can FFAD, have intangibility frames, land, art activates immediately as you land, then have more intangibility frames & act with anything afterwards. It's really good.\

And Monado arts don't affect frame data in terms of startup / endlag afaik (and as argheth mentioned), but their attributes they do change radically differ in their respective buffs & debuffs. This is how a character like Shulk having average stats then suddenly augmented by Monado Jump can rival characters with great jump heights and or great recoveries such as Falco, Luigi, Greninja, Diddy Kong, & ZSS as well as Jump Shulk having air speed greater than Yoshi along with fall speed rivaling Mega Man. Monado Speed allows Shulk to be the second fastest running character in the game (faster than Captain Falcon), have the longest initial dash / foxtrot distance, fastest max walk speed (faster than Marcina), slightly more air speed than Yoshi (could use double confirmation), & the best perfect pivot. Monado Shield allows Shulk to have the best bubble shield having ~63 HP rather than the universal ~42 HP as well as resisting knockback by so much that Shield Shulk literally does. not. die.

 

[gByron]

I dont use every character. This is my humble opinion.
Jab:
Ftilt:
Utilt:
Dtilt:
Fsmash:
Usmash:
Dsmash:
Nair:
.. nairing is love <3
Fair:
Bair: Most bairs are lovely too <3
Uair:
Dair:


Neutralb:
Sideb:
Upb:
Downb:

 

[Megamang]

I'd say bayonetta doesn't have a great jab, it doesn't combo for nearly as much as her basic BnBs, is frame 9, and is SDIable. People aren't doing it yet, but you can escape her rapid jab with decent consistency. It does have high damage and range though.


But i'd add her to the up b, definitely over Villager and Olimar. It gives her a f4 CQC option, that works OOS for punishes, that leads into long combo strings. If you get hit in the wrong spot with WTwist, you are gonna die off the ceiling. And probably side B, if you count divekick (and if you count shoryuken you should count divekick), for the same reasons. Safe on shield, starts really long combos, adds crazy mobility.

 

[gByron]

Thank you. I didnt know that bayonetta's jab was escapable.

I agree with you in witch twist. Maybe I should have put it. It is also a great tool to gimp characters with bad recoveries

 

[Lavani]

I'd say bayonetta doesn't have a great jab, it doesn't combo for nearly as much as her basic BnBs, is frame 9, and is SDIable. People aren't doing it yet, but you can escape her rapid jab with decent consistency. It does have high damage and range though.

Which direction do you SDI to get out? I think I've managed it going away from her once, but I'm pretty sure it's only because she held it long enough to start being pushed back too.

 

[Megamang]

Straight upwards, and start jumping. Probably doesn't work for fox, shiek, bigbodies... anyways, My Smash Corner did a bayonetta video, check it out for video footage, and other details on escaping her BnBs and jabs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

needs more representation on Down B, B Air, D Air, Dash Grab and either F Smash or U Smash as they are both great.

 

[Pazx]

I'm pretty sure Diddy has the second weakest upsmash in the game, it has decent range and it's fairly quick to come out but is it one of the best up-smashes? Nah.

 

[Furret24]

I'm pretty sure Diddy has the second weakest upsmash in the game, it has decent range and it's fairly quick to come out but is it one of the best up-smashes? Nah.

Especially when his utilt has similar range, while also being faster and killing sooner.

 

[ARGHETH]

Especially when his utilt has similar range, while also being faster and killing sooner.

I assume you mean a faster FAF? Because Usmash comes out faster than Utilt for some reason.
I've been testing it out on 3ds training mode and I've found Usmash to kill sooner...
I'm sure there's a reason Diddys tend to go for Usmash more than Utlit.

 

[Pazx]

Usmash kills sooner than utilt on all the currently legal stages, although I wouldn't be surprised if utilt killed first on a stage with a very high ceiling (maybe even Kongo).

Diddy's usmash is good because it works well with dtilt, it has deceptive range and sucks people in to create the kill confirm. Mario, Fox, etc. all have better upsmashes but none of them would work in the way Diddy uses his upsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

's forward air should be on this list.

Combos into itself, kills at high percentages, minimal landing lag and safe on shield... outright awesome move.

 

[SwordM13X24]

No mention of 's F-Smash anywhere? What other F-Smash has an active hitbox while chargin' the move?
Their Uair should also deserve some sort of mention too.

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm pretty sure Diddy has the second weakest upsmash in the game, it has decent range and it's fairly quick to come out but is it one of the best up-smashes? Nah.

Decent range is underplaying it. It combos from dtilt which makes it very good. Although probably not one of the best upsmashes

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Jab: cfalcon, frame 2 multijab with bull**** base kb
Ftilt: tough one, sheik for a frame 5 combo move or little Mac for a frame 4 kill move your choice
Dtilt: little Mac>diddy, frame 4 kill confirm at like 90% and combo move at lower percents
Utilt: ryu, no explanation needed

Little Mac wins all smash attacks by default beacause of that super armor bs and safety on shield so here's second place

Fsmash: metaknight, no end lag so it's usable even in the neutral
Usmash: doctor Mario, kills super early, comes out fast, and has intangibility
Dsmash: ZSS, combos into anything and starts a 0-death on almost all fast fallers

Nair: ryu, combos into literally everything, frame 4, short hop double nair, safe on shield
Fair: another tough one that a lot of people are probably going to disagree with. Mewtwo. 1 frame slower than sheiks, no end lag, 13%, more range, kill move, combos into itself and other moves
Bair: Falco, frame 4 and strong as hell
Dair: ryu, tied for fastest spike (frame 8), kill confirm, combos into anything, can be confirmed into fit the kill

Neutral special: Kirby inhale, it's everything
Up special: Quick attack, unpredictable and best mobility special in the game, makes pikachu possibly the most mobile character in the game
Down special: limit break charge, turns cloud from an already great character to an unstoppable monster
Side special: shadow sneak, hitstun canceling

 

[ARGHETH]

Neutral special: Kirby inhale, it's everything

lol
Kirby has to get the inhale first to be everything.
Basically every charge shot character + Sheik and Wario definitely have better Neutral Bs than Kirby.

Down special: limit break charge, turns cloud from an already great character to an unstoppable monster

Sheik/ZSS's kills, can be comboed into, and gives them a very good disadvantage state. Witch Time is...well, Witch Time.

Side special: shadow sneak, hitstun canceling

Better than Sonic's?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy's Down B, D Air, B Air and F Smash still should make the list however. I think his U Smash is awesome because it's an awesome finisher, and has many set ups for the kill. U Smash buff was one of the most beautiful Diddy buffs.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

lol
Kirby has to get the inhale first to be everything.
Basically every charge shot character + Sheik and Wario definitely have better Neutral Bs than Kirby.

Sheik/ZSS's kills, can be comboed into, and gives them a very good disadvantage state. Witch Time is...well, Witch Time.

Better than Sonic's?

but inhale means Kirby has every charge shot and he also does have a few ways to combo into inhale, like fthrow->ff uair->inhale

Down special was kinda hard but in the end I chose Cloud, it buffs everything about him so yeh

Sonics side special is great but greninja can cancel hitstun so like, that just puts it above everyone else

 

[SwordM13X24]

Limit Charge does NOTHIN' while it's in use. Yes it gives more to the Limit Break meter, but the move itself is NOTHIN' and PINS YA IN ONE SPOT. Even Finishin' Touch is situational at best, so Cloud's overall Down B shouldn't be up there in the top 10s.

The closest move that's similar to Limit Charge is Shulk's Monado Arts, it also kinda does "nothin'" but at the same time it can lag cancel, NOT PIN YA IN A SPOT, and immediately gives the art to Shulk to use. The lag cancel makes the Monado Arts not a complete dead weight of a move before the enhance'd state of the character is reach'd. The much faster Monado Arts is compare to Limit Charge, in the sense of gettin' from normal state to buff'd state, is just the cherry on the top.

 

[Routa]

's forward air should be on this list.

Combos into itself, kills at high percentages, minimal landing lag and safe on shield... outright awesome move.

I think the main reason why it is so good is the fact that it goes extremely well with M2's aerial mobility (main reason why it combos into itself). It is pretty much like Ness' Fair, but one that can kill. Amazing Fair nevertheless.

Tbh Swordfighter's Fair isn't that much different. It also kills at "high perventages", has little to no lag if cancelled before the last hit (can lead into grab combo) and deals decent damage. It might not be top 10, but it should be at honorable mentions.

I'm not sure how often this has been mentioned (even I might have said this before, but meh), but I think Gunner's Fair should replace Villager's due to Gun Dashing.

WFT's Jab should be at least in the Honorable Mentions due to its Burial effect.

 

[FullMoon]

Lol Shadow Sneak

The move is good, covers rolls and spotdodges well, kills decently early, is a decent edgeguarding move and is good recovery.

The hitstun cancel helps but is only relevant in a few MUs (Robin, ZSS, MK and Bayonetta specifically) since the endlag is big enough that using it to get out of an Up-Tilt chain without a platform above is just going to get you punished harder.

It's a great multi-use move, but not the best side special in the game, not nearly close to it.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Lol Shadow Sneak

The move is good, covers rolls and spotdodges well, kills decently early, is a decent edgeguarding move and is good recovery.

The hitstun cancel helps but is only relevant in a few MUs (Robin, ZSS, MK and Bayonetta specifically) since the endlag is big enough that using it to get out of an Up-Tilt chain without a platform above is just going to get you punished harder.

It's a great multi-use move, but not the best side special in the game, not nearly close to it.

Well I mean, its definitely not meant for escaping an uptilt chain it's more of a keep yourself alive kind of move because it allows you to escape a lot of characters best finishers, sheik for instance doesn't even have access to her 50/50 because of it

Aside from that, what's actually better than it as a side special with as much utility? Sonics side special is good for mix-ups yes but you can use any sex kick or fast jab to beat it out and maybe punish him for using it. Corrin is the only one I can think of that might actually be better than it

 

[Kaladin]

Well I mean, its definitely not meant for escaping an uptilt chain it's more of a keep yourself alive kind of move because it allows you to escape a log of characters best finishers, sheik for instance doesn't even have access to her 50/50 because of it

Aside from that, what's actually better than it as a side special with as much utility? Sonics side special is good for mix-ups yes but you can use any sex kick or fast jab to beat it out and maybe punish him for using it. Corrin is the only one I can think of that might actually be better than it

Characters with a better side-B than greninja: (limit)(borderline)(debatable)

Shadow sneak is too situational/catching a panic air dodge read. yes, Sheik loses her 50/50. It's still Greninja's worst matchup, by far. It only really makes a significant difference in the ZSS and maybe MK matchups, but even then, the aforementioned characters' side Bs are either good in every matchup, or better in every matchup.

 

[FullMoon]

It would be pretty great if Greninja mains could consistently get out of Sheik's Up-Air with Shadow Sneak but I'm pretty sure the timing there is very strict and might not be guaranteed either.

I don't think anybody has done it consistently yet, it could make the Sheik MU significantly better because then that means Greninja would be consistently living to very high percentages outside of Sheik getting some reads with smashes or Bouncing Fish.

 

[Routa]

Characters with a better side-B than greninja: (limit)(borderline)(debatable)

*cough* Swordfighter's Chakram *cough*

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Robin's isn't great because you can just run out of it and lose a kill move in jab at the same time which kinda ruins the entire move.

Sonics and koopalings are both kinda in the same situation, fast and good for mix-ups but they are beaten out by any sort of fast multijab, sex kicks, and certain projectiles

Clouds is only better if he has limit break which takes a while to charge

Olimar I always forget about considering nobody plays him but yeah I can agree on that sorta

Toon links and villagers are both great projectiles but they're still only another projectile that's outclassed by another projectile they have

Bayonettas would be better because its an amazing combo tool and does everything that shadowsneak does but cancel hitstun and kill.

Corrins ive already mentioned as better or on par, infinite utility is amazing in every way

Canceling the hitstun of any move that doesn't send you into a tumble is a big part of why shadow sneak is a great move, you can survive nearly every multihit kill/combo move which a lot of high/top tiers have and rely off of, I mean a smart greninja can live almost forever against a sheik just because he get out of almost all her best kill moves/setups. Bayonettas loses one of her biggest combo moves because greninja can literally just teleport out of it

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin's isn't great because you can just run out of it and lose a kill move in jab at the same time which kinda ruins the entire move.

The move is good because it triggers whether or not it hits anything, and walls characters who can't get around it effectively (heavies, mostly). Arcfire leads into Levin Uair/Fair/(Bair?), all of which kill at the same percent or earlier than Fire jab. The great thing about jab is that it's fast and kills at decent percents, not that it kills particularly early. The tome respawns after ten seconds anyways, and meanwhile you get an item that kills and does 18% to play with.

Sonics and koopalings are both kinda in the same situation, fast and good for mix-ups but they are beaten out by any sort of fast multijab, sex kicks, and certain projectiles

They still have more utility than Shadow Sneak.

Toon links and villagers are both great projectiles but they're still only another projectile that's outclassed by another projectile they have

...Bombs and Boomerang are completely different.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

They still have more utility than Shadow Sneak

but they don't

...Bombs and Boomarang are completely different

yeah but bombs are still way more useful than Boomarang and the Boomarang is only good because it goes great with his entire moveset, like imagine if lucario had a Boomarang instead of force Palm, he loses a major kill move for what? A slow projectile with barely any follow ups from up close that does 8%

 

[SwordM13X24]

Anyone else notice a tread in special moves that most non-Up Specials are consider'd the best are either projectiles or command grabs? Other moves like body lunges, counters, and etc don't appear that often. That's not to say that no counter can be top 10 material *coughwitchtimeandcountersurgecough*. Moves of a "lesser" type can have unusual properties that'll make'em top material easy and moves of a "good" type can have clunky properties that'll make'em nigh useless.

So in short, would folks agree that certain type(s) of moves are favor'd in the meta?

 

[Deleted member]

Going to suggest moves for a few other characters.

has a pretty dope up tilt. It's fast, a good anti-air and covers platforms and chains into itself multiple times while leading into any one of Corrin's aerials for further juggling, like nair, fair or uair. Speaking of, I'd also suggest Corrin's up air. It's fast, has a wide swing and is a great vertical KO move especially on stages with lower ceilings.

I have a feeling somebody already covered this but I'll just put this here regardless. Cloud's up air doesn't even need an introduction as to how awesome it is, falling uair is a great approach tool and the move is solid for juggling and it scales well with Rage for killing. His nair is bloody good too.

The Pits have an awesome nair, it's one of their best moves I'd say. ACs, decent damage and has good range.

's down tilt trips, comes out fast and since he's crouching during the move he's difficult to punish head on. It also allows him to set up for a grab or go in for the kill with a move like fsmash.

 

[ARGHETH]

Speaking of, I'd also suggest Corrin's up air. It's fast, has a wide swing and is a great vertical KO move especially on stages with lower ceilings.

For perspective, it has the same knockback as Ike's Uair except it's F7 and only does 1% less damage.

 

[Ffamran]

For perspective, it has the same knockback as Ike's Uair except it's F7 and only does 1% less damage.

It does have a slightly worse angle at 70 degrees to Ike's 80, though. Still a good move, though.

 

[HermitHelmet]

If we're taking into account all of Mii's Specials, Brawler's Up-B should surely be one.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I guess I can make something... I don't know, I may have some bias...

Jab- Little Mac's jab is Frame 1, very good with both its Gentleman and its Rapid Jab, and has enough priority to clash with any move that has 10% or less damage. Lower priority moves like Bayonetta's Forward Smash, Villager's Tree, and the like also clash with Jab, but clashing with this jab will just cause it to transition to Jab 2 the to Jab 1-ing.

Dash Attack- Hard decision since Dash Attack isn't something I normally consider when it comes to being good, but probably . Has two hitboxes that can set up for extra attacks afterwards, especially Up Air. I'm not certain on this, but that's because who uses Dash Attack all that often?

Forward Tilt- Another move I don't think about often in terms of 'is it good'... But or . Marth's is incredible for spacing, probably his longest ranged attack, and still can kill with its tipper while Little Mac's is uninterruptable when opponents attack the hitboxes of Forward Tilt, is a kill move, and combos out of some attacks.

Up Tilt- . Links into itself, used in kill combos, strings into up airs and then an Up B, if you read an airdodge you get a Forward Air... Enough said.

Down Tilt- or . Both are great shield poking tools, and most characters have decent Down Tilts anyways so its not like I'm saying much

Forward Smash- Three different variations, all of which have their uses, with the downwards angle being somewhat safe on shield, the standard direction being a side blastzone killing option and the upwards angled hit being a kill off the top one.'s was close but its just a bit slow.

Up Smash- . Slightly slow on startup, but is absurdly powerful, basically lagless, and is safe on shield due to having very minimal lag and being very powerful. Tip of the foot also has a sweetspot that hurts even more. Invincible Up Smashes like s and s are close but I would prefer Ganondorf's.

Down Smash- or . Both are similar in the fact that they stun opponents briefly, although one is burial and one is paralysis, they basically will do the same thing: Set up into a killing option. Most of the other Down Smashes are too weak for my tastes.

Neutral Air- (personally) I find it to be the best, since it's a mix of a bunch of other characters: Very fast, hitbox covers the entirety of Cloud's body, sets up into killing options, little landing lag, safe if spaced well. It's almost TOO good, personally.

Forward Air- Even after getting nerfed to oblivion, it's still got a disjoint, links into itself, fair-planes into the outer blastzones, and is very good.

Back Air- Kills, and is fast. Basically any other Back Air, but it's the best of the bunch.

Up Air- Cloud has great aerials; Up Air links into itself very well, low landing lag, autocancels right after the frame ends.

Down Air- Combos into a bunch of move, kills with any portion of the attack, meteors, etc etc. Its really good.

Neutral Special- You have a command grab that can turn into any other Neutral Special based on matchups. What isn't to like?

Side Special- Allows you to gain massive momentum, kills with the kick or poke, helps recovery on walls, etc.

Up Special- Kills, invincibility, and has good range.

Down Special- or . Sheik's kills, is mobility and recovery, and combos out of moves, but Bayonetta's has Bat Within and the ridiculousness of Witch Time

Grab- One of the highest ranged grabs in the game and its not that slow.

Pummel- . Fast, moderately powerful for its speed at 1.55% so you'll always get 4-6% off when pummeling even at 0% before throwing.

Forward Throw- If you get thrown, you're going to the moon. Also, it has great damage output

Back Throw- Bowser's, but even stronger and reversed the direction.

Up Throw- Another killing option that works best on stages with platforms.

Down Throw- Combo throw into basically anything. One of the best throws in general.

'Zair'- Because its the only character that I like using the Zair with.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

For Dair, Utilt, UpB and Dtilt: has a great, decently quick, very powerful meteor that always meteors and its sourspot leads to footstools, it also AC out of a short hop and can lead to some combos if the sweet spot is landed, or jablock with sourspot.
Utilt is a quick long duration move with little lag and combos well, and actually can set up to a kill confirm if it hits with the back, though it's difficult. The small disjoint makes for a decent anti-air and I think it's an honorable mention.

Her Dtilt is great for catching the 2 from window, and it's a decent ranged and fast move that combos very well and leads to some nice damaging combos and if your lucky, a LK.

UpB is an honorable mention, very strong, longest teleport in the game also makes for a very difficult to punish recovery if not going for the 2 frame window, it can be made so you don't exactly teleport to the ledge, but slightly above it and surprise the opponent. It's a decent OoS option if the opponent were to un safely attack her shield, and get a pretty early KO. It has it's faults with its endlag especially, and predictability. Though it's still a good and versatile UpB that's close to top 10 if not in it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

When is this going to be updated?

 

[Ninety]

Probably needs to consider the last wave of DLCs, yeah. Bayo's nair is better at gimping than some characters' entire movesets, Corrin's fair makes every Marth main cry impotent tears, and Cloud's uair is like one of the most overtuned moves in the entire game (seriously, that thing works as a combo starter, combo followup, has a preposterous hitbox, great active frames, autocancels, kills and probably makes you a nice sandwich while it's at it).

 

[TheHypnotoad]

When is this going to be updated?

Never.

 

[Xamad]

Is Trifroze really not updating the OP? Oh well.

Either way, I'd probably list 's up throw as one of the best. It combos into aerials at low percents making it good for racking damage, and at high percents IIRC it kill confirms into fair (and I think up air sometimes? idk). If TF updates the OP he should list in up throw instead of down throw.